Albanianization in Macedonia

[Tomche Makedonche]

Riste:
"In relation to the above, who do you believe is driving the "kind" of Macedonia you speak of?"

I personally assume that there are a number of external parties who would have an interest in influencing the direction of RoM�s policy across a variety of fields so that it aligns with their own (neighbouring states and entities that have interests in the greater region are some examples), however responsibility falls to the government on whether, or how, it chooses to allow such influences to have any effect on their governance, hence in my opinion, this ultimately makes RoM�s elected government the driver behind the "kind" of RoM it seeks to create.

Reading through this thread I think it's safe to say we are all in agreement that the manner in which the Albanian predicament has been handled by RoM would be described as poor at best. However I personally believe that the freedom in which Albanians are permitted to pursue their nationalistic agenda is not possible without the endorsement of parties of greater influence whose interests, coincidently also lie within the region.

"In a nutshell, Macedonia has no future unless Macedonians decide on a future for themselves"

Completely with you on that one, however I'm not at all convinced that they have actually decided on the type of future they want, which after 20 years of independence, is more than a worry, such goals should have been established, agreed and adhered to prior to the thought of independence.


Vangel:

You can call me Tom, it's my name, plus I think the abbreviation TM has already been claimed by another forum member, though I could be mistaken.

"Even so, that does not mean that Macedonia needs to welcome them or even allow foreign interference in its own domestic affairs, particularly if it is simply following internationally accepted practice by deconstructing so-called �group rights� and implementing a political system based on individual rights and responsibilities".

I agree, and in a just world that respects sovereignty and is committed to abiding by, and enforcing, such concepts like "international law" irrespective of the influence of the parties involved (I'm sure you're probably more versed in this than I), then should RoM's government choose to pursue this path, it should be free to do so unabated, provided it adheres to your aforementioned accepted practices and rights.
Though taking into account the current international political climate (not to mention the fact a precedence has been set by inviting external mediators to broker an agreement in relation to this issue), do you honestly believe that this scenario is likely to transpire?, I'm with you in respect of your thoughts on how it "should" transpire, and in the eyes of God, from a Macedonian perspective, we may be considered the more righteous in our pursuits?, but in the "material world" the adjudicator is not God, but man, and man was not designed to be just, man was designed to be able to choose, therein lies the predicament.
When I consider the current international political climate, I personal feel that the bodies which were designed to administer these concepts of "international law" have become ever more corrupted and can in no way be considered neutral, particularly when judgment is to be cast on the actions of a party with greater influence. In fact I would go so far as to say that these bodies are now becoming tools of the parties of greater influence. While on the one hand these bodies are encouraged to operate as intended when judgment is required on matters between parties which are of little to no interest to a party of greater influence, this "perception" of "fairness", on the other hand, is exploited when a party of greater influence uses these bodies to justify actions, which would otherwise be interpreted as illegal, against a lesser party who's interests conflict with that of their own. "Perception" then becomes the fundamental foundation on which the parties of greater influence retain their power/control over this supposed international equilibrium, it is what precludes chaos, which is a lot harder to control. I am not saying that this is by any means absolute truth, but simply my opinion on the current political climate which exists today. I am willing to admit this opinion could be misguided if proved otherwise.
However, as it has been the case for over 100 years, I believe Macedonia remains in the interests of parties with greater influence. I do not mean to say that what you propose is unobtainable nor that it shouldn't be pursued, quite the contrary, all I mean to say is that within this political climate, RoM's path to acheive this desired result, taking into account the agreements it has become a signatory to, is something that will take immense planning, cunning and a strong resolve, and I can't say that I currently see these required virtues within any political party in RoM.

"I don�t for a minute believe this would be a simple task and it does risk war. But not to attempt it would mean voluntarily surrendering Macedonia to a minority group led by racist extremists. War is undesirable to say the least, but many times it is unavoidable if we are to have a just peace in the long run"

Again I am in agreement with you, but when I think of a "hot war", the test I normally use to consider whether such action is justifiable is to simply ask myself whether I would be willing to enlist my own children for its cause, therefore I am personally hesitant to willingly commit any family to a �Hot War� unless the outcome/gains set out to be achieved through this action can in all likelihood be obtained and preserved, OR unless there is absolutely no other means to ensure the survival of my family. I personally don't think RoM's current situation meets either of the aforementioned criteria's yet, in other words all possible alternate methods have yet to be pursued and exhausted.

"What type of actions do you think would be appropriate under these circumstances?"

This comes down to the "kind" of RoM that its government intends on creating, and to be honest I really don't know what that is. My interpretation at its beginning was that it was to be a nation state representative of the entire Macedonia and Macedonian Ethnos?, however following the signing of an international agreement this changed, and my understanding then was that it became a nation state specifically representative of the citizens of the state alone with no affiliation to the wider ethnos?, and then following the signing of another agreement this changed yet again and I think it became a multicultural state based on the concept of national affiliation with specific reference to Macedonian ethnic affiliation now being removed?, the constitution seemed a bit contradictory last time I went over it although I admit my interpretations could be wrong?, the situation is admittedly sort of confusing. What kind of RoM do you think should be created? this might be a better starting point cause I don't think these incompetant individuals supposedly in charge have any idea, although I hope to be proved wrong...


ProMKD and George:
I personal find value in this particualr quote as I think it has meaning in a variety of arenas, it is essentially about standing up for what you believe in. We are lucky enough to have an actual live recording of the quote itself, and I think the vigour in which Mario belts his words out makes it even more inspiring... Mario Savio Speech - Bodies Upon The Gears - YouTube

[Niko777]

albanians have money from drugs and crime as well as funding from the Saudis to keep building mosques, who is funding churches? no one...

Who is funding this giant Roman Catholic basilica in the center of Prishtina (Kosovo)?

[Risto the Great]

Who is funding this giant Roman Catholic basilica in the center of Prishtina (Kosovo)?

That diminishes the "Muslim myth factor" somewhat.

[Risto the Great]

ProMKD and George:
I personal find value in this particualr quote as I think it has meaning in a variety of arenas, it is essentially about standing up for what you believe in. We are lucky enough to have an actual live recording of the quote itself, and I think the vigour in which Mario belts his words out makes it even more inspiring... Mario Savio Speech - Bodies Upon The Gears - YouTube

Wow, I like it!
What a shame he did not go on to shake up the USA any further. The continued FBI interest in his affairs is an example that would have warranted his continued activism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Savio

[Risto the Great]

By the way, I think we need to open a thread specifically for all the Macedonian Orthodox Churches that have been robbed or vandalized. It would take some work from the admins/mods, but it would be worth being able to showcase the religious intolerance against our people. The topic should be closed for discussion, and should only provide links and quotes of articles where everybody can clearly see all the news for themselves. This topic is good for our members, but it`s far too enormous for outside viewers to actually get info from it easily.

That is a great idea ProMKD.
Please start it and we will give it the importance it deserves.

[George S.]

I allready mentioned to TM i found those quotes of putting the backs to the wheel i found that awe inspiring.
Also if we are going to talk about the churches it would be interesting to see whatever happened to the perpetrators,whether they got off scot free?The one that comes to mind the destruction of the beautifull leshok monastery.Supposedly it was under the unesco protection.I wonder what happened to the terrorists who blew it up,they got an amnesty!

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Another photo of the Glumovo mosque.



Look how run down and rural the surroundings look. Where the money is coming from to fund these mosques seriously needs to be identified by the government.

There are so many mosques in western Macedonia, it makes one wonder how they fill them up. Perhaps attendance isn't a concern, it's basically a territorial claim.

[MKPrilep]

That�s what I wanted to say.
Why such a large mosque for such a village?!
And where comes the money?
On the other hand, a town like Prilep builds now three small churches.
This is crazy.

This is Glumovo.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG]URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/37808819890649353245219.jpg/][/URL][/IMG]

[George S.]

i have travelled right through albania & only managed to see one mosque only why??
Is it because they are catholics??

[Niko777]

Wanted to share this, from last January, Bitola region.

Меѓуетнички проблеми во битолско Велушина - YouTube

[Vangelovski]

Vangel:

You can call me Tom, it's my name, plus I think the abbreviation TM has already been claimed by another forum member, though I could be mistaken.

Thanks Tom. I'm not sure why, but only my political enemies ever seem call me ‘Vangel’. But I don’t believe you meant any harm by it.

I agree, and in a just world that respects sovereignty and is committed to abiding by, and enforcing, such concepts like "international law" irrespective of the influence of the parties involved (I'm sure you're probably more versed in this than I), then should RoM's government choose to pursue this path, it should be free to do so unabated, provided it adheres to your aforementioned accepted practices and rights.
Though taking into account the current international political climate (not to mention the fact a precedence has been set by inviting external mediators to broker an agreement in relation to this issue), do you honestly believe that this scenario is likely to transpire?

Which current international political climate are you referring to?

On a side not, I don’t really accept the validity of ‘international law’, because ultimately, it has been developed by an unelected and unrepresentative body. Further, while some aspects of it may be just and reasonable, others are not.

I'm with you in respect of your thoughts on how it "should" transpire, and in the eyes of God, from a Macedonian perspective, we may be considered the more righteous in our pursuits?, but in the "material world" the adjudicator is not God, but man, and man was not designed to be just, man was designed to be able to choose, therein lies the predicament.
When I consider the current international political climate, I personal feel that the bodies which were designed to administer these concepts of "international law" have become ever more corrupted and can in no way be considered neutral, particularly when judgment is to be cast on the actions of a party with greater influence. In fact I would go so far as to say that these bodies are now becoming tools of the parties of greater influence. While on the one hand these bodies are encouraged to operate as intended when judgment is required on matters between parties which are of little to no interest to a party of greater influence, this "perception" of "fairness", on the other hand, is exploited when a party of greater influence uses these bodies to justify actions, which would otherwise be interpreted as illegal, against a lesser party who's interests conflict with that of their own. "Perception" then becomes the fundamental foundation on which the parties of greater influence retain their power/control over this supposed international equilibrium, it is what precludes chaos, which is a lot harder to control. I am not saying that this is by any means absolute truth, but simply my opinion on the current political climate which exists today. I am willing to admit this opinion could be misguided if proved otherwise.
However, as it has been the case for over 100 years, I believe Macedonia remains in the interests of parties with greater influence. I do not mean to say that what you propose is unobtainable nor that it shouldn't be pursued, quite the contrary, all I mean to say is that within this political climate, RoM's path to acheive this desired result, taking into account the agreements it has become a signatory to, is something that will take immense planning, cunning and a strong resolve, and I can't say that I currently see these required virtues within any political party in RoM.

I think you give Macedonia too much importance in the eye’s of external powers. It may be of secondary concern to some of our neighbours, but, in my view, it is only a (very) marginal issue for states outside of the Balkan region. I agree though, that there does not appear to be anyone, let alone an organised movement, in Macedonia at the moment that is capable or willing to make any necessary changes.

Again I am in agreement with you, but when I think of a "hot war", the test I normally use to consider whether such action is justifiable is to simply ask myself whether I would be willing to enlist my own children for its cause, therefore I am personally hesitant to willingly commit any family to a “Hot War” unless the outcome/gains set out to be achieved through this action can in all likelihood be obtained and preserved, OR unless there is absolutely no other means to ensure the survival of my family. I personally don't think RoM's current situation meets either of the aforementioned criteria's yet, in other words all possible alternate methods have yet to be pursued and exhausted.

I don’t think anyone would want to enlist their children into a war for any cause and that is why they seek to deal with the issues themselves – so that their children don’t have to. In my view, Macedonia is going to war whether the people there like it or not and one of the key reasons for that is the Framework Agreement, which has placed the Macedonians and Albanians on to a collision course. The Framework Agreement has become the problem in and of itself and the last ten years has seen segregation and negative competition on the ground like never before. Like I’ve argued many times, I think that there is only a small chance of avoiding war and that is by replacing the Framework Agreement with something much more sensible, as noted in my previous post. That may not work, but doing nothing will definitely not work.

This comes down to the "kind" of RoM that its government intends on creating, and to be honest I really don't know what that is. My interpretation at its beginning was that it was to be a nation state representative of the entire Macedonia and Macedonian Ethnos?, however following the signing of an international agreement this changed, and my understanding then was that it became a nation state specifically representative of the citizens of the state alone with no affiliation to the wider ethnos?, and then following the signing of another agreement this changed yet again and I think it became a multicultural state based on the concept of national affiliation with specific reference to Macedonian ethnic affiliation now being removed?, the constitution seemed a bit contradictory last time I went over it although I admit my interpretations could be wrong?, the situation is admittedly sort of confusing. What kind of RoM do you think should be created? this might be a better starting point cause I don't think these incompetant individuals supposedly in charge have any idea, although I hope to be proved wrong...

Just a few points here. Firstly, I don’t think that the Government should be shaping Macedonia. I think that Macedonian society as a whole should be shaping the state – its laws, its institutions and its role. Secondly, the Macedonian constitution mentions a whole host of ‘co-constitutive’ nations, including the Macedonians and ‘others’, which in essence makes it the nation-state of an infinite number of nations – so, its multinational.

As to the ‘kind’ of Macedonia I would like to see, that’s spelt out in the MTO’s definition of the cause, which I won’t post here to save on repetition. In a nutshell, I’d like to see a Macedonia where Macedonians make their own decisions about their own affairs, i.e., exercising their national sovereignty and inalienable rights. There’s very few options left to the Macedonians, that I can think of, to actually achieve this. The vast majority of other people across the world undertake these actions on a daily basis, including the Albanians living in Macedonia. You mention the ‘international political climate’ and I suppose I’ve already asked you about it above, but can you elaborate on what you mean? I’m wondering if there is something I’ve missed that has such a significant impact on Macedonian freedom.

[Brian]

Or...

You can just join us, we may be broke for now but we have one hell of a sealine. I can guarantee you wont see a mosque being built ever again.

LOL.Put it in writing that you recognise the Macedonian identity and language and throw in a few of those Golden Dawn thugs to sweaten the bargan and you might find some wanting to deal - heck, Macedonians are over there on work and holiday almost all the time anyway.

[George S.]

votron you underestimate the macedonian people.If we all work together we can all do something for the common good.The problem is we entrust our politicians rather blindly to do things for us & we don't check on them.We call that democracy for the people by the people..About time the people get woken up & see for themselves that we are being ripped off blind by our very own people who are mean't to represent us.

[Brian]

A "hot war", for lack of a better term, will only serve best the interests of Macedonia's enemies. At present should such an event take place, in respect of Macedonia, the losses will undoubtedly outweigh the gains.

Why do you think this? I'm assuming the Albanians start it as in 2001.

The only way it will be to RoMs detriment is if the politicians piss on the army's 'hot war' like they did in 2001 by firstly only incrementing force bit by bit and then later withdrawing force at times and finally capitulating - let's face realities and not piss around, war means killing and if it comes to that then there's no room for increments, it's all in and use EVERYTHING at your disposal like taking a sledgehammer to a walnut. I know your going to say it's overkill but that's the point - win! overwhelmingly. Even the civilians should get involved in the 'scorched earth' policy because it will be a very short time before the USA/West will be demanding a 'halt or we'll bomb you'.

If you remember Caesar was stabbed by many at once so that no one person could be blamed. Vostanie!

[George S.]

I don't know if you guys saw when president trajkovski said that a much hotter war would have resolved the albanian problem.But there was interference by the nato & us who had other ideas for the albanians preventing a hot war.Admittedly president trajkovski did say if the secyrity forces fought much harder they would have won the war & today there may not be the same nationalism that is rearing it's ugly head.If our security forces were allowed to take full measures then we would not be having the albanian problem of today.