Greeks, seriously.

[Venom]

Gorillas, what part of greece are you from?

[Risto the Great]

I will deal with all of your issues, but for now:

- Hellinism: We are running around in circles here and you deny so it seems things that are right in front of you. I am not talking about vague unsubstantiated theories à la Risto but facts. Now you want me to define Hellinism ...
We've been through this but ok, I will repeat it again:
In short, I define Hellism as spreading Greek / Hellenic culture and civilization. I have broken it down above into different aspects in the previous messages. Feel free to read back. And I have given perfectly ligitimate examples in my previous messages. I can accept the obvious, namely that you hate anything to do with Greece, but what you are trying to do here compromises your crediblity. You might not like it but fact is that Macedonians did spread Hellinism. (Greek / Hellenic culture and civilization)

You keep wanting to write "Greek/Hellenic". And I know you really want to say Greek = Hellenic. Surely you agree this is extremely misleading. Like saying the Saxons = English.

The "Hellenistic" period of Alexander saw the introduction of Egyptian, Syrian etc. Gods. Who were naturalised amd became part of the "Hellenic dreamtime". So, with the spread of Hellenism came an absorption of new cultures, religions etc. You don't want to hear this because the picture you are attempting to paint is one where everyone became modern Greeks 2300 years ago and abandoned their native cultures. This ability to Hellenise the most foreign of cultural practices may well be a defining characteristic of Greeks after all. We even have Greek coffee nowadays ... a new God to worship.

Hey, I bet you even feel Hellenism never stopped when Byzantium commenced (much less Roman). C'mon, give me an honest answer here. I also wonder if you could even begin to describe the impact of Western Civilisation on the world. What is it? McDonalds?

So, in conclusion to your myths presented above, the spread of Hellenism as defined by you was merely a mingling of numerous cultures. I am sure you will never accept this. But the reality and the dream that is Hellenism are two very different things.

[Giorikas]

I will deal with all of your issues, but for now:



You keep wanting to write "Greek/Hellenic". And I know you really want to say Greek = Hellenic. Surely you agree this is extremely misleading. Like saying the Saxons = English.

The "Hellenistic" period of Alexander saw the introduction of Egyptian, Syrian etc. Gods. Who were naturalised amd became part of the "Hellenic dreamtime". So, with the spread of Hellenism came an absorption of new cultures, religions etc. You don't want to hear this because the picture you are attempting to paint is one where everyone became modern Greeks 2300 years ago and abandoned their native cultures. This ability to Hellenise the most foreign of cultural practices may well be a defining characteristic of Greeks after all. We even have Greek coffee nowadays ... a new God to worship.

Hey, I bet you even feel Hellenism never stopped when Byzantium commenced (much less Roman). C'mon, give me an honest answer here. I also wonder if you could even begin to describe the impact of Western Civilisation on the world. What is it? McDonalds?

So, in conclusion to your myths presented above, the spread of Hellenism as defined by you was merely a mingling of numerous cultures. I am sure you will never accept this. But the reality and the dream that is Hellenism are two very different things.

Nothing of what you say makes what I say (the spread of Hellinism) less likely Risto.
It looks to me that in all these messages you are trying to say: There was no Hellinism, there were no Hellenes, and whatever they spoke, wrote, built, and thought was invented by others in the first place. And all that, that really didn't happen had nothing to do with modern Greeks who do not exist either but are really converted Turks who were converted by non Greek speaking Albanians.

Have you any idea how that sounds? You might think differently but I really hope that many will read your ideas ...

[Venom]

Ancient Hellenes or whatever, the fact still remains that your 4000 years of continuous history in the country that that you call greece is a load of shit. There has always been a Macedonia. But greece is hardly 200 years old.

Now. What part of greece are you from Gorillas?

[Giorikas]

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;4714]I will deal with all of your issues, but for now:

No problem, take your time, I will be waiting patiently.

[Risto the Great]

You know what Giorikas, you want me to reply to your "thoughts" on the matter above. Well, they are opinions and that is all they are.

The 2 of us are writing in English, and in 2000 years time someone will quote Risto the Great as a Great Australian who was of obvious English extraction. Your and my ethnicity will not even be questioned because of the overwhelming proof of our written language.

Koine and Greek have a relationship. The Macedonians language has a very strong relationship with the language of Macedonia and Macedonians for the last 1500 years. Your historians write this.

I say to you that the language of the Ancient Macedonians was unable to be understood by their southern neighbours. You keep saying it was. (I am sure you would like to quote the Ancient Macedonian month names here, but before you do, remember to look at Greece's month names now.) We have proof either way it would appear. Therefore I will rely on the last 1500 years of Macedonian language continuity. Do you deny this as well?

I gave you my reason for bringing up antiquity, it was in the original post. Are you senile?

- I am not saying Russian is not a language because they had no script to write it in.
On the contrary, the language is alive and kicking today. There is no comparison. I did not say that that Macedonian could never have been a language because there is no written evidence. There is no evidence at all, neither written nor spoken. Period. It's wishful thinking from your side. If you have evidence, please bring it forward.

The Macedonian language is indeed alive and kicking today.
I will tell you what I do not have proof of .... your favourite historians tell us when the Slavs invaded and subjugated most of Greece (much less Macedonia). Can you tell me any proof of the Slavic language existence prior to Kiril & Metodi? Your historians say it was the dominant language from the slavic invaders and we don't see a hint of written language for 300 years. Please find me something about this, and then reconcile it to your dribble above.

Honestly Risto, let it go. Tell me something, if half of the 'indiginous' slav speaking population was expelled/murdered as you say, and the other half replaced with Turkish Christian settlers, who in the name of God was around to learn the Turkish Christians Greek, and to force the 'indiginous' slav speaking population to speak Greek. Do you realise how far fetched that is? On top of that, I learned from you all that Greece (ex-Macedonia) was full of Vlach and Albanian speakers, so who the hell was teaching what to whom?

Did I say the Macedonians were expelled/murdered? No, you know I did not. Why would you make things up like that? Does it help your arguments? I even told you how quickly they were victims of ethnocide.

The Christians that were transplanted from Turkey DID learn how to speak Macedonian when they came to my people's region of Macedonia. They still know how to speak it based on my recent visits. You say you are not from there, trust me, you need to rely on my first hand observations about this.

A little fascist called Metaxas changed the language the people spoke in the region very quickly. I am sure you have heard of him. You might even be his illegitimate son based on your "logical conclusions".

Do you know what the population was before we ethincally cleansed you as you claim? And do you know the population now?

Please wait for this. I will have a very good report for you very shortly. Can your people still read Turkish? You might not like this report when we get it.

[osiris]

venom alki and fatso from maknews are both greeks who understand the issue. next time you are on maknews pm either of them and start a dialogue you will be surprisd at how understanding and supportive they both are.

[Venom]

osiris, I know Fatso. Sometimes he is on here too. Alki I don't know. Just how supportive is he?

Its not like "Have your state but you're still Slavs," is it?

[Giorikas]

- What people will say in 2000 years remains to be seen. We are both able to speak and write in our own languages and we both explicitally expressed that we are Macedonian and Greek. We can prove that and people will read that. You are trying to make a link here it seems. In comparison: Alexander has proclaimed that he was Greek, and it has not been recorded that he spoke any other language than that. I repeat: There is no proof of a seperate Macedonian language. If you do, then provide the evidence.

- There you go again being vague again in your next parapraph saying that 'the Macedonians language has a very strong relationship with the language of Macedonia' What are you talking about? Which language and when? What is the relationship with what and how do you know this?

- I deny any relationship between the ancient Macedonian language and Macedonian that you speak today (or in the last 1500 years) because it has not been proven that this ancient Macedonian language existed in the first place. Even if this mysterious ancient Macedonian language existed, then it can not have any relationship with your Macedonian language because your modern Macedonian language is a Slavic language.

- Then, you are trying to prove that ancient Macedonian existed without a written form, because that was also the case with the Slavic invaders who were able to speak their Slavic languages and after learned the Cyrillic alfabet: We are not discussing Slavic languages here in that respect, and wheter they could have existed. It's irrelevant to the question of ancient Macedonians. Anyway, there were Slavic languages and people speak it. We have proof.
That, my friend, is a fact you will hopefully not deny. Ancient Macedonian is completely unkown either spoken or written.

- Antiquity: You and I went a different direction then the orginal post, and you introduced antiquity in this discussion to which I 'objected'.
I actually just wanted to object to the use of the term ' Christian Turk' in this thread. By the way, calling each other names is not civilized Risto. You've been doing that now a few times now and it won't add anything to the discussion. Try to let off steam by disproving what I say, and prove what you say instead of calling me names like 'senile fool' or 'little man'. Eventually I would have to do the same and I really do not want to do that to such a Great person like yourself.

- Now indeed you did not say yourself in this thread that Macedonians were expelled from Greece and murdered. But it sure is the general message here on this and on Maknews when you were still writing there. Do you distance yourself from those statements or not?

- I have asked the question before on this forum: Maybe you'd care to give me a brief summary of what happened to Macedonians in Greek Macedonia? How many Macedonians lived there let's say in 1800, 1900, during the Balkan wars and now and what happened to them. Are they still there, were they murdered, were they expelled, were they forcefully (or voluntarily) integrated or ethnocided? All of the above? Just enlighten an ignorant soul like myself, Risto the Great.

I am just interested to hear from you in your own words what happened and how you know this, not interested in your 'neutral' reports.

- So now you are saying that the Christian Turks were moved from Turkey to Greek Macedonia, then proceeded to learn Macedonian from Macedonians and then I suppose forcefully learned Greek again? That doesn't make sense Risto. Learning a language is not something that you do just like that actually, some never manage, but to do it twice ... ? And all this so quickly too .... They must have a magic language potion in Macedonia.

- Again going to your last points, calling me an illigitimate son of someone is not very polite. Should I start calling you names now too ? For the time being I consider that it just shows your weakness and your unability to formulate some serious answers (since what I read doesn't qualify). But don't push your luck.

[makedonin]

1) There is no proof of a seperate Macedonian language. If you do, then provide the evidence.

2)
- I deny any relationship between the ancient Macedonian language and Macedonian that you speak today (or in the last 1500 years) because it has not been proven that this ancient Macedonian language existed in the first place.

1)
There are indications all over the Ancient writters, look up here: Ancient Macedonian Language

Britannicca says that some Oxford dude is clasifieing the Ancient Macedonian Language tentatively as Aeolic Greek.

So there is no prove about the Language of the Ancient Macedonians of being what so ever. There is very little material there.

2)
You can or can not deny anything, it does not really matter, can't you understand?

just because today our Language is scuffed with in the Slavic Group, this does not mean that this language begun to exists in around 1500 years ago on the Balkans as you like to poiont out or it is from somewhere else than the Balkans.

Our language is firstly very multy layered language, and does not oblige to the normal "Slavic" Language.

Second, the Term Slavic was most likely a Byzantine Coinage which Political Reasons behind, and no Ethnic or Linguistical affiniation what so ever, for more read here "The Makeing of the Slavs" Florin Curta.



Conclusion, we know less about the Ancient Macedonians and their Language and thats why there is no consensus about them, and scientists are parted in Pro Greek and Non Pro Greek Parties.

But that does not prevents you from claiming that there is absolute no douobt about the Greekness of the Ancient Macedonians, which is very biased.

In my oppinion and research, Ancient Macedonan as well as their Language was mixture of many Ethnicities who came firstly united under one Kingdom and with time they mixed, thus producing Macedonians same goes for the Language.

Some of them specially the Royals were sometimes out of Political motivation Pro Hellenic.

But if they understood the same as you understand under the Term Hellene is not neccesserally a must be, for more look up on my Signature!

All we know is that we don't know for sure.

[El Bre]

There is really no point in engaging Gorikas, or any other "Greek" for that matter. The Hellenism casts a wide net and has engulfed people of many cultures.

[Daskalot]

debate with propagandists is futile, where are the sober Greeks not drunk on metaxas??

[Risto the Great]

Then, you are trying to prove that ancient Macedonian existed without a written form, because that was also the case with the Slavic invaders who were able to speak their Slavic languages and after learned the Cyrillic alfabet: We are not discussing Slavic languages here in that respect, and wheter they could have existed. It's irrelevant to the question of ancient Macedonians. Anyway, there were Slavic languages and people speak it. We have proof.
That, my friend, is a fact you will hopefully not deny. Ancient Macedonian is completely unkown either spoken or written.

Well done, you are almost there. I will repeat myself again and ask you to provide the proof of the slavic language prior to Kiril & Metodi. Your obsession with “slavicness” of the language has already been your undoing. I want proof of the slavic language before Kiril & Metodi. Show me the written form of the language.

- Antiquity: You and I went a different direction then the orginal post, and you introduced antiquity in this discussion to which I 'objected'.

I remained in exactly the same direction as the original post. You chose to make this thread something you could stand on a soap-box about and discuss issues relating to the “Christian Turks”. Quite irrelevant but fine by me I suppose.

I actually just wanted to object to the use of the term ' Christian Turk' in this thread. By the way, calling each other names is not civilized Risto. You've been doing that now a few times now and it won't add anything to the discussion. Try to let off steam by disproving what I say, and prove what you say instead of calling me names like 'senile fool' or 'little man'. Eventually I would have to do the same and I really do not want to do that to such a Great person like yourself.

Thanks for acknowledging my Greatness. I do the same thing every morning to myself. You are indeed correct, I think it is not nice to call each other names. Saying things like “senile” (I did not say "senile fool", but it has a certain panache) and “little man” is not nice at all. Most of the annoyance I feel stems from your inability to comprehend nuance in the English language. You either use it to your advantage by choosing to avoid discussing an issue, or else you shift the focus elsewhere. I actually asked if you were senile. But these little words are nowhere as insidious as the attack on a race of people that you perpetuate on a daily basis here. Your denial of the Macedonian ethnic identity as compared to your willingness to Greekify even the most Asiatic of Orthodox Christian is ... well, typical.

- Now indeed you did not say yourself in this thread that Macedonians were expelled from Greece and murdered. But it sure is the general message here on this and on Maknews when you were still writing there. Do you distance yourself from those statements or not?

Oh, there were murders and people expelled. But this happens in many backward nations and was not the fate of the majority of Macedonians. The majority were simply victims of ethnocide. Their Macedonian identity was simply washed away as quick as they could remove any presence of Macedonian indicators such as language, church inscriptions, place names etc.


You know many Macedonians migrated from Greece. And many remained. They became the minority in their own land. You should visit there, you will learn a lot. Greece will not even allow some Polish people (citizens of Greece) to establish a cultural centre for themselves to this day. So it easy to understand how people are not allowed to carry on their traditions in Greece. These people will soon become perfect Greeks, which I am sure is acceptable to you but hardly a matter of choice for Poles (or indeed Macedonians).

- So now you are saying that the Christian Turks were moved from Turkey to Greek Macedonia, then proceeded to learn Macedonian from Macedonians and then I suppose forcefully learned Greek again? That doesn't make sense Risto. Learning a language is not something that you do just like that actually, some never manage, but to do it twice ... ? And all this so quickly too .... They must have a magic language potion in Macedonia.

Seriously, you should go there. (I hope you have not been lying to me and are actually from Greece) I am saying I have been there on numerous occasions and have spoken Macedonian to the people you describe as Christian Turks. The process of learning Macedonian was out of necessity, if you needed to borrow, buy, sell something … better yet, live in a foreign land … then you learn the language of the land. Most knew enough Macedonian to get by. Everyone was learning Greek at the same time. I said before, it is a phenomena that was never repeated in the 20th century.

I have not forgotten about the number, I will have some for you that will knock your pandofli off. But in the meanwhile, please give me your numbers of Greeks in Macedonia during the late 1800's to mid 1900's.

- Again going to your last points, calling me an illigitimate son of someone is not very polite. Should I start calling you names now too ? For the time being I consider that it just shows your weakness and your unability to formulate some serious answers (since what I read doesn't qualify). But don't push your luck.

I was joking. Are you really that sensitive? It was merely a suggestion that you might share genetic code given that your ideology appears to be very closely related to that of General Metaxas. Who was indeed a filthy fascist cunt. But I would never call you that. I am a gentleman.

[Venom]

- Again going to your last points, calling me an illigitimate son of someone is not very polite. Should I start calling you names now too ? For the time being I consider that it just shows your weakness and your unability to formulate some serious answers (since what I read doesn't qualify). But don't push your luck.

Risto you made the poor little baby cry. The frustration of not being able to prove fuck all is getting to him. Poor little girl. Here, suck on this kurche Giokiriakis.

[Giorikas]

Well done, you are almost there. I will repeat myself again and ask you to provide the proof of the slavic language prior to Kiril & Metodi. Your obsession with “slavicness” of the language has already been your undoing. I want proof of the slavic language before Kiril & Metodi. Show me the written form of the language.


I remained in exactly the same direction as the original post. You chose to make this thread something you could stand on a soap-box about and discuss issues relating to the “Christian Turks”. Quite irrelevant but fine by me I suppose.


Thanks for acknowledging my Greatness. I do the same thing every morning to myself. You are indeed correct, I think it is not nice to call each other names. Saying things like “senile” (I did not say "senile fool", but it has a certain panache) and “little man” is not nice at all. Most of the annoyance I feel stems from your inability to comprehend nuance in the English language. You either use it to your advantage by choosing to avoid discussing an issue, or else you shift the focus elsewhere. I actually asked if you were senile. But these little words are nowhere as insidious as the attack on a race of people that you perpetuate on a daily basis here. Your denial of the Macedonian ethnic identity as compared to your willingness to Greekify even the most Asiatic of Orthodox Christian is ... well, typical.

Oh, there were murders and people expelled. But this happens in many backward nations and was not the fate of the majority of Macedonians. The majority were simply victims of ethnocide. Their Macedonian identity was simply washed away as quick as they could remove any presence of Macedonian indicators such as language, church inscriptions, place names etc.


You know many Macedonians migrated from Greece. And many remained. They became the minority in their own land. You should visit there, you will learn a lot. Greece will not even allow some Polish people (citizens of Greece) to establish a cultural centre for themselves to this day. So it easy to understand how people are not allowed to carry on their traditions in Greece. These people will soon become perfect Greeks, which I am sure is acceptable to you but hardly a matter of choice for Poles (or indeed Macedonians).



Seriously, you should go there. (I hope you have not been lying to me and are actually from Greece) I am saying I have been there on numerous occasions and have spoken Macedonian to the people you describe as Christian Turks. The process of learning Macedonian was out of necessity, if you needed to borrow, buy, sell something … better yet, live in a foreign land … then you learn the language of the land. Most knew enough Macedonian to get by. Everyone was learning Greek at the same time. I said before, it is a phenomena that was never repeated in the 20th century.

I have not forgotten about the number, I will have some for you that will knock your pandofli off. But in the meanwhile, please give me your numbers of Greeks in Macedonia during the late 1800's to mid 1900's.

I was joking. Are you really that sensitive? It was merely a suggestion that you might share genetic code given that your ideology appears to be very closely related to that of General Metaxas. Who was indeed a filthy fascist cunt. But I would never call you that. I am a gentleman.

Risto,

I told you before: Slavic languages are irrelevant to the question of the existence of an ancient Macedonian language. I am certainly not obsessed by Slavic languages.

In many words you say you agree with me that we should not call each other names. Fine. If you change your mind, fine too, then we will both call each other names.

Glad you finally take position and make a clear statement about the fate of Macedonians in Greece. That really helps for my understanding and probably other's. Usually you simply answer questions with counter-questions, it seems like your trademark at least. For sure it's safer to do that, and instead you seem to have more interest in Greek matters then actually discussing about Macedonian matters (even if they are sometimes connected).
It's something like the quest for the unique (modern) Macedonian word that they were looking for on Maknews. If you can't find it, better talk about Greeks. If you can't provide any proof of an ancient Macedonian language, except for half a dozen quotes from historians, than you focus on the Greek language. I understand what you're doing. Many of your truths are disputed, unconfirmed, unproven, and unsubstantiated, so it is normal that you should focus on Greeks instead. God forbid that you should provide evidence about your truths.

Now about your statements that 'Christian Turks' learned Macedonian from Macedonians before being brainwashed in Greek (by Vlachs and Arvanites .. ?): What you said before is something completely different then what you wrote in this last message. A nuance I suppose? Or just an Australian being creative with the English language ? Anyway, going back to what you said, sure, I will not be surprised that Slavic words will remain even now in places where Slavic speakers lived (and we know they did live in many parts of Macedonia). But that would be the exception, not the rule. A Macedonian living in today's Macedonia surrounded by Albanian speaking macedonaisn will pick up Albanian too. An interaction of languages is normal to a certain extent, but I guess you got carried away again a bit unleashing your wild imagination. (unsubstantiated again). Which macedonian words I wonder though ...

For your information, I told you that I am not Macedonian. I have no roots there. But I have been many times to Thessaloniki. I like it there very much and will be back on many occasions, probably the end of the month again. Also Drama, Kavala, Halkidiki, Naousa and Vergina for example. Have you?

Didn't you say somewhere that with your name it would be impossible to enter into Greece? Or were you using the 'nuances of the languages' again suggesting that that happened without that actually being the case? How come you got in then ? Were you or were you not refused entry into the country?

Last point, on your last paragraph: The golden rule when you decide to get in touch with your Balkan roots one day is that we try not to make references about family, even if it is for yourself clear that this is an attempt to be funny or to pass a message. If you know that I am not able to pick up the nuances the messages (not being an Anglophone like yourself) then try to avoid it.

Nuff said about that. Looking forward to hearing from you in your own words ( I don't need you to read reports) what happened in Greek Macedonia: How many Macedonians lived there let's say from 1800 onwards up to now, and to which extent were there their numbers diminished. (like you knew had happened, and even much faster then anywhere else in the Balkans)
What was the number of non-Macedonians in comparison, who were they, and last but not least: how do you know what you know. (and is it verifyable) I can't believe that for more then a month you need to research those things ... Please be concrete, no own theories. Gentleman as you are, I'm sure you will keep you word.

Thanks in advance.