Greeks, seriously.

[Giorikas]

Most Greeks cannot even remember their Grandparents spoke a completely different language. So there is no need to worry about discordance amongst Macedonians too much my friend.

I am as Greek as you are Chinese.

I have no idea what you are hoping to convey with your text above. But your flawed logic says only Greeks have a claim on Ancient Macedonia. Why is this? Do you claim the Venetians as well? They represent a very significant part of the region's history.

Here it is (according to a realist):

Ancient Macedonians
- No academic has confirmed their native language. It was not understood by people to the South of them.
- They went through a Hellenistic period for a few hundred years.
- They went through a Roman period for a few hundred years.
- They went through a Slavic period for 1500 years.
- They went through an Ottoman period for 500 of those slavic years.
= Modern Macedonians.

I claim continual evolution. Greeks claim continuity. Who is closer to the truth ... well mine is easier to achieve. And our DNA appears to support my claims.

If you want to tell me the Greekness of Macedonians ... well you are talking about the Greekness of Greeks in a modern sense and will run around in circles until the better fed cows from Macedonia come home.

Perhaps you could advise Dora to call the Southern part of Macedonia as ANCIENT MACEDONIA. I am sure it will give Greeks that warm feeling of cultural superiority that they strive for. I think it is a genuine solution that suits Greece entirely. Macedonians are quite simply a modern race just like Greeks. If you want to read any more into it, then be prepared for a thorough de-construction of the modern Greek identity.

It's easy. If my ancestors are Turkish because they had their roots in Turkey, then you must be Greek if your ancestors came from Greece. That's what you guys are saying. So I am Turk and you are Greek. Interesting. And we have others of Albanian descent who are Macedonian since they live there. This is your and your friend's logic. Can't have it both ways my friend.

[Risto the Great]

It's easy. If my ancestors are Turkish because they had their roots in Turkey, then you must be Greek if your ancestors came from Greece. That's what you guys are saying. So I am Turk and you are Greek. Interesting. And we have others of Albanian descent who are Macedonian since they live there. This is your and your friend's logic. Can't have it both ways my friend.

Thanks for avoiding ALL of my post.
I take it as a compliment.
If you use your little play with words above, then my ancestors who came from a country called Greece were Greeks. Not Macedonians. As a consequence, nobody is Macedonian if they come from Greece and clearly the name issue is dead in your mind. So ... which game would you like to play today little man?

And ... I did not realise your ancestors were from Turkey. Obviously they were not Turkish. But they were not modern Greeks either.

Again, thanks for the compliment.

[Giorikas]

Most Greeks cannot even remember their Grandparents spoke a completely different language. So there is no need to worry about discordance amongst Macedonians too much my friend.

I am as Greek as you are Chinese.

I have no idea what you are hoping to convey with your text above. But your flawed logic says only Greeks have a claim on Ancient Macedonia. Why is this? Do you claim the Venetians as well? They represent a very significant part of the region's history.

Here it is (according to a realist):

Ancient Macedonians
- No academic has confirmed their native language. It was not understood by people to the South of them.
- They went through a Hellenistic period for a few hundred years.
- They went through a Roman period for a few hundred years.
- They went through a Slavic period for 1500 years.
- They went through an Ottoman period for 500 of those slavic years.
= Modern Macedonians.

I claim continual evolution. Greeks claim continuity. Who is closer to the truth ... well mine is easier to achieve. And our DNA appears to support my claims.

If you want to tell me the Greekness of Macedonians ... well you are talking about the Greekness of Greeks in a modern sense and will run around in circles until the better fed cows from Macedonia come home.

Perhaps you could advise Dora to call the Southern part of Macedonia as ANCIENT MACEDONIA. I am sure it will give Greeks that warm feeling of cultural superiority that they strive for. I think it is a genuine solution that suits Greece entirely. Macedonians are quite simply a modern race just like Greeks. If you want to read any more into it, then be prepared for a thorough de-construction of the modern Greek identity.

A realist would say that:

- They have communicated in Greek. Inscriptions are abundant and prove that all over the world. No other language then Greek has been found or proven in connection with ancient Macedonians. That my friend is a fact.
- Macedonians have not 'gone through' a Hellinistic period, they initiated it. No Macedonians, no Hellinistic period. They were the driving force that made it happen.
- Have stopped existing as a distinct society or culture when they were overrun by Romans.
- Had stopped existing as a distinct civilization when Slavs appeared some 800 to 1000 years after the Hellinistic era.

As far as your DNA, we've seen the value of those researches ..... so dream on.

[Risto the Great]

I guess you needed time to clear your answer with the HDA (Hellenic Dreamtime Association).

- They have communicated in Greek. Inscriptions are abundant and prove that all over the world. No other language then Greek has been found or proven in connection with ancient Greeks. That my friend is a fact.

Communicated or written? Do you think it is both? Was it really the Greek language? A little optimistic, Greeks did not exist then ... you know that. Why do you deny the texts proving the Macedonians were unable to be understood by their southern friends? Not convenient? Can you confirm the number of written languages in existence in the world at precisely this time?

- Macedonians have not 'gone through' a Hellinistic period, they initiated it. No Macedonians, no Hellinistic period. They were the driving force that made it happen.

Hmmm, evidence exists to confirm Koine was in existence in many of the places BEFORE Alexander and his armies got there. Do you deny this? And when Alexander adopted Persian customs, how does that help you?

It was called a Hellenistic period for a reason. When you learn more about English, you will understand the nuance of that ending.

- Have stopped existing as a distinct society or culture when they were overrun by Romans.

Yet Greeks say Macedonia is Greek ... (hint ...land grab)

- Had stopped existing as a distinct civilization when Slavs appeared some 800 to 1000 years after the Hellinistic era.

Hang on, when did they stop? Roman or Slavic times? When did the Greeks start again? When did umm, errr, the Ancient Athenians stop existing?

As far as your DNA, we've seen the value of those researches .....

Have you really? I mean really looked at them?

[Giorikas]

Thanks for avoiding ALL of my post.
I take it as a compliment.
If you use your little play with words above, then my ancestors who came from a country called Greece were Greeks. Not Macedonians. As a consequence, nobody is Macedonian if they come from Greece and clearly the name issue is dead in your mind. So ... which game would you like to play today little man?

And ... I did not realise your ancestors were from Turkey. Obviously they were not Turkish. But they were not modern Greeks either.

Again, thanks for the compliment.

Actually Risto, I commented on some other posts separately since I did not see the relevance to what we were discussing. Proving or disproving that ancient Macedonians were either Greek or not does not add anything. Don't flatter yourself any ,more then you were already doing my friend.

I hope you are capable to understand I was simplifying the discussion saying that my ancestors are from Turkey, and I am well aware of your special interest in the background of Greek members. I did not and do no see the need to tell you what my origins are, but then again it's no secret either, my nick should give enough clues.

Glad to see that you acknowledge how illogical your theories are about the 'Turkish Christian' are. That is not playing with words by this 'little man' oh Great Risto. It is called confronting you with something utterly stupid and illogical that you do not seem to distance yourself from but I'm glad that we cleared that matter now. Did you finally answer that question I asked you many threads ago where you were going to back up a rash statement ... ?

[Risto the Great]

Actually Risto, I commented on some other posts separately since I did not see the relevance to what we were discussing. Proving or disproving that ancient Macedonians were either Greek or not does not add anything. Don't flatter yourself any ,more then you were already doing my friend.

I hope you are capable to understand I was simplifying the discussion saying that my ancestors are from Turkey, and I am well aware of your special interest in the background of Greek members. I did not and do no see the need to tell you what my origins are, but then again it's no secret either, my nick should give enough clues.

Glad to see that you acknowledge how illogical your theories are about the 'Turkish Christian' are. That is not playing with words by this 'little man' oh Great Risto. It is called confronting you with something utterly stupid and illogical that you do not seem to distance yourself from but I'm glad that we cleared that matter now. Did you finally answer that question I asked you many threads ago where you were going to back up a rash statement ... ?

Giorikas, you say many words but they always mean very little. Is that a strategy? I said the notion of Christian Turks is grammatically correct. I would not call that an ethnicity. Turkish is an ethnicity. There were some others that were evolving in Turkey too.

The only argument Greece uses to prove its ownership of the Macedonian legacy is to attempt to claim sole links with antiquity. Stop pretending it "does not add anything". From this I can assume you personally do not have an issue with the name Macedonia for the Republic of Macedonia. Naturally we appreciate support from wherever it comes from.

You are indeed correct, I am often intrigued by the background of Greek members. I find numerous surprises when delving back a little. It is a common theme it would appear, lets call it an "identifier".

Please tell me in one sentence which statement I needed to back up. I wonder if you can.

[Giorikas]

I guess you needed time to clear your answer with the HDA (Hellenic Dreamtime Association).


Communicated or written? Do you think it is both? Was it really the Greek language? A little optimistic, Greeks did not exist then ... you know that. Why do you deny the texts proving the Macedonians were unable to be understood by their southern friends? Not convenient? Can you confirm the number of written languages in existence in the world at precisely this time?


Hmmm, evidence exists to confirm Koine was in existence in many of the places BEFORE Alexander and his armies got there. Do you deny this? And when Alexander adopted Persian customs, how does that help you?

It was called a Hellenistic period for a reason. When you learn more about English, you will understand the nuance of that ending.



Yet Greeks say Macedonia is Greek ... (hint ...land grab)

Hang on, when did they stop? Roman or Slavic times? When did the Greeks start again? When did umm, errr, the Ancient Athenians stop existing?

Have you really? I mean really looked at them?

I am actually not always online, but I believe that I answered quick enough in this case. Writing is a form of communication. We can not play back the tape but we can read back in which language we wrote. For most people that should give you a hint about the language they mastered.

Greeks as such did not exist then, but that changes nothing. That changed when Macedonians did their part unifying the different civilizations that would later be recognized as Greek for example with respect to the different Greek dialects.
They did in a way already what you accuse modern Greeks of in relation with minorities in Greece. Ironic isn't it.

As far as the inability of ancient Macedonians to communicate with their 'southern friends', you should also know very well that this proof is neither abundant nor can be 100% interpreted like that. You are walking on very thin ice. The only thing we know for a fact is that Macedonians spoke Greek. Unless you insist in saying that writing in Greek does not mean that you are able to speak it to haha.

Whether or not I will some day brush up my English does not change anything about the fact that Macedonians as victors and as the driving force spread Greek civilization.
Which victorious civilization would spread someone else's civilization ? That should give you some clue.

As final note, what I really did not set out to do here was going into this kind of discussions. I would be glad to continue if you insist but we were actually talking about a different topic here.
Reason was, I was a bit offended by the way you (not personally) described Greeks here but somehow you feel the need to play a record that has been played many times by others.

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, you say many words but they always mean very little. Is that a strategy? I said the notion of Christian Turks is grammatically correct. I would not call that an ethnicity. Turkish is an ethnicity. There were some others that were evolving in Turkey too.

The only argument Greece uses to prove its ownership of the Macedonian legacy is to attempt to claim sole links with antiquity. Stop pretending it "does not add anything". From this I can assume you personally do not have an issue with the name Macedonia for the Republic of Macedonia. Naturally we appreciate support from wherever it comes from.

You are indeed correct, I am often intrigued by the background of Greek members. I find numerous surprises when delving back a little. It is a common theme it would appear, lets call it an "identifier".

Please tell me in one sentence which statement I needed to back up. I wonder if you can.

I acknowledge that you yourself are not describing Greeks like that, but somehow you are defending their actions it seems. But I have to give you credit for that.

It did not add anything to THIS discussion. I was discussing the stupidity of about those remarks. I am in this thread not discussing about the links of anyone to anything. (or try not to)

The statement was that Macedonians in Greece were made to disappear in a much greater factor that has happened anywhere else in the Balkans. (hope I described that well) I forgot the thread.

Going now, will read your posts later.

take care,

Giorikas

[Risto the Great]

Which victorious civilization would spread someone else's civilization ? That should give you some clue.

Aside from Turkey, I don't really see any thriving Hellenic speaking communites in the East. You should define the "spread of civilisation" thing. I do note your fascination with antiquity though. Again, I remind you of those pesky Persians and Alexander's fondness for them. Remember when he adopted their culture too?


... an English lesson:

-istic (suffix)
means “in imitation of” or “having some characteristics of,” as in modernistic. Both -istic and -esque (which see) are sometimes partly or wholly pejorative, often meaning “a poor or cheap imitation of.”

HELLENISTIC

[Venom]

Gorillas, I love how you twist words and shape sentences to suit what you need to say as a way of avoiding any real responsibility you are placing on yourself. Then when all of what you are saying falls apart (wikipedia means little) you say you were not here to start a debate about Ancient Macedonians. HAHAHA! You did start it! But now you're losing so you are not looking for it!

In any case, Risto did not say that because the Macedonians came from what is now greece that they must be greek. You want to hear it that way but it makes no sense.

The Turks who came across were that: Turks. They had to be taught to be greek. Sometimes they had to be taught with a gun pointing at their head but nonetheless they were coached and trained and turned into good little greeks.

The Macedonians who left greece were never greeks. They were ALWAYS Macedonians.

Massive difference my simple friend.

[Giorikas]

Aside from Turkey, I don't really see any thriving Hellenic speaking communites in the East. You should define the "spread of civilisation" thing. I do note your fascination with antiquity though. Again, I remind you of those pesky Persians and Alexander's fondness for them. Remember when he adopted their culture too?


... an English lesson:

-istic (suffix)
means “in imitation of” or “having some characteristics of,” as in modernistic. Both -istic and -esque (which see) are sometimes partly or wholly pejorative, often meaning “a poor or cheap imitation of.”

HELLENISTIC

Thank you for clarifying that -istic suffix story. I guess you have herewith proven that Macedonians did not spread Greek / Hellenic civilization .... ?

I should clarify 'spread of civilization' because it seems to confuse you: That includes religion, culture, architecture, language, script, philosophy. You will find that all over the territories that were conquered. I trust I do not need to clarify that.

You single out language. Rightfully you mention that Greek was spoken in today's Turkey.
But that doesn't change anything. You forgot that many years after that period the New Testimony was written in Greek in Palestina. That might seem a detail to you but it is not. Any self respecting civilization should by then (long after) have introduced their own language wouldn't you think?

Have you ever been to Egypt ? Try visiting some museums there and you will not escape the 'Hellinistic' influence. You are hopefully aware of the fact that as far as in India coins were found that were locally made with Greek inscriptions. I believe - unlike myself - that you studied this subject and the history thoroughly, so you are aware of all this.

Question remains, why would Macedonians, not spread their own civilization and language. Even the ancient graffiti that the normal footsoldier left in the middle east was written in Greek, so that kind of shoots some holes in the theory that Greek was just spoken by the upper classes.
That does not mean that the other mysterious ancient Macedonian language (of which not a single word is known) could not have been spoken but it makes that claim very shaky.

You mention that Alexander adopted part of the Persian culture. That's correct but again, it does not change anything. On the contrary, he flirted a bit with that but did not spread it really.

Repeating again what I said before; you drag history in this discussion, I wanted just to explain how idiotic this Christian Turks story is.

Feel free to discuss further on the subject of history with me, but I am glad that at least you acknowledged my point on the 'Christian Turk' story. I appreciate that.

Remember now the answers you promised me earlier ? You didn't have time then you told me.

[Giorikas]

My point to this painful exercise G is that only in Greece is this kind of metamorphosis imposed on its people. Rather than a natural erosion of identity after moving country, we are talking about indigenous people losing their identity. This is prevalent in Greece and at least 10 times faster than any other region on the Balkans.

If you do not think this is significant or interesting, then that is your problem. I think it is significant and wonder why it happens and what conditions do people live in that facilitates such rapid change.

In relation to your agenda well apparently there are very few Macedonians in Greece according to you. A casual reader will say ... yes, Giorikas appears to know what he is talking about ... and you are really just another person who tries to downplay the indigenous populations and their significance in Northern Greece.

You say you do not come from there, yet you comment on this often.


----------

Hey Risto,

Found it. You were going to back up your words. Good luck.

Giorikas

[Risto the Great]

Thank you for clarifying that -istic suffix story. I guess you have herewith proven that Macedonians did not spread Greek / Hellenic civilization .... ?

I should clarify 'spread of civilization' because it seems to confuse you: That includes religion, culture, architecture, language, script, philosophy. You will find that all over the territories that were conquered. I trust I do not need to clarify that.

You single out language. Rightfully you mention that Greek was spoken in today's Turkey.
But that doesn't change anything. You forgot that many years after that period the New Testimony was written in Greek in Palestina. That might seem a detail to you but it is not. Any self respecting civilization should by then (long after) have introduced their own language wouldn't you think?

Have you ever been to Egypt ? Try visiting some museums there and you will not escape the 'Hellinistic' influence. You are hopefully aware of the fact that as far as in India coins were found that were locally made with Greek inscriptions. I believe - unlike myself - that you studied this subject and the history thoroughly, so you are aware of all this.

Question remains, why would Macedonians, not spread their own civilization and language. Even the ancient graffiti that the normal footsoldier left in the middle east was written in Greek, so that kind of shoots some holes in the theory that Greek was just spoken by the upper classes.
That does not mean that the other mysterious ancient Macedonian language (of which not a single word is known) could not have been spoken but it makes that claim very shaky.

You mention that Alexander adopted part of the Persian culture. That's correct but again, it does not change anything. On the contrary, he flirted a bit with that but did not spread it really.

Repeating again what I said before; you drag history in this discussion, I wanted just to explain how idiotic this Christian Turks story is.

Feel free to discuss further on the subject of history with me, but I am glad that at least you acknowledged my point on the 'Christian Turk' story. I appreciate that.

Remember now the answers you promised me earlier ? You didn't have time then you told me.

I think the English lesson was very important for you. Your academics use this term. For this reason, you really need to understand the significance of this suffix. Please stop calling it the spread of Greekness. Alexander was around 2100 years before "Greece". The Hellenistic period was simply that, one where leanings were obvious. There were other periods too. You seem to keep forgetting about them.

I have never said that Greek was spoken in today's Turkey. Please do not misquote me. I believe some Hellenic languages had continued there. Mostly thanks to the church. If you are going to call the language as Greek, then you will have to explain to my people in Greece why they had to learn perfect modern Greek in schools and could not understand a word of what the imported races spoke when they used their own languages.

In English we would call the ancestor of our language as Olde English.
When the Philhellenes tried to communicate with your Greeks, they spoke the "Olde Greek" only to be looked at blankly by the local hotchpotch of people in Greece. Naturally, this was before the "cleansing" of your adopted language.

Your definition for "spread of civilisation" is interesting. It is like the Philippines conquering a neighbouring country and imposing English as the language. Which it would do, given the chance. This is in the modern day and they even have their own written language, but would still do this because they perceive it as a higher culture. A bit like the Russian and Greek respect for the French, it was perceived as "higher". Remember the days of legal documents in French in modern Greece? A Napoleon for your thoughts.

But the other features ... architecture etc, well this is part of the Greek myth. Egyptian philosophers taught the Hellenes a thing or two. As did the Persian mathematicians. So in your assessment we find the Hellenes transported various "Civilisation for Dummies" books across the developed world at the time. I don't buy it. The Egyptians had done it all before and moved on. The Persians had culture whilst the Athenians were making fire.

There is debate about whether the New Testament was originally written in Koine. Certainly some sections have gathered great debate on this issue. I must admit, it was an interesting choice ... it had to be something different from Aramaic I guess, and since the Romans were the enemy of the Christians, well then why not another well developed written language of that time like Koine? Particularly bearing in mind the Arabic languages still did not have vowels in theirs.

You mention an ordinary footsoldier writing something. We all know that Alexander's army was gathered from all of the known world at the time. Hardly compelling. We also know the Ancient Macedonians could not be understood by their southern neighbours when they spoke. Do you really want me to quote the people you feel akin to in relation to this? You keep avoiding it. It is not a shaky claim, it is a fact that that the language could not be understood.

About the Christian Turks ... well like I said, there were other ethnicities "waiting to happen" in Turkey. They were not allowed to flower there. They were not Greek, so it is difficult to find useful names for them. "Christian Turks with a penchant for modern Greece" CTWAPFMG? might be more appropriate. Just like the Macedonians who have signed some little declaration of Bulgarianness to get jobs in the EU .... well, they are not Bulgarians. The Christian Turks did the same thing to get in Europe. Either to Romania (or further up) or to modern Greece. Toss a coin. Don't tell me it came from the heart or something ... there are too many proud Romanians from Turkey to tell me something is not right about your argument. And let us not forget the (rare) CTWAPFMG who felt he was absolutely superior to the lowly peasants of modern Greece. How they left a superior culture behind in Turkey. I say rare because the majority were simply church going people who had embraced their new masters and spoke the local tongue of the time. The fact they learned modern Greek should not place a definition on these people from a historic perspective.

I asked for one sentence in question form from you. You pasted a quote by me and a few sentences of dribble about it. What do actually want me to answer? Do you speak like this in your native language? What about in Modern Greek?

[Svoliani]

The Muslims that left Macedonia were mostly Turks But there was also a number of Greeks who converted, they lived near the Aliakmon River and were called Vallahades. The uchitel can tell you more about them.
They were Greek speakers and even when they arrived in Turkey they still kept alive some traditions like putting a coin in the Vasilopita (you like this word Juicy?) on New Years day .

Now its easy to see why a Christian would convert , but can anyone give a reason why a Muslim would convert to Christianity. What good would have come out of that for them? So why did these Christian Turks convert.
Of course they were Christians who were already there when the Turks arrived, so they are obviously not Turks, unless Asia Minor was deserted when the Turks arrived??

[Risto the Great]

Now its easy to see why a Christian would convert , but can anyone give a reason why a Muslim would convert to Christianity. What good would have come out of that for them? So why did these Christian Turks convert.
Of course they were Christians who were already there when the Turks arrived, so they are obviously not Turks, unless Asia Minor was deserted when the Turks arrived??

I agree, they were obviously not modern Turks.
Not sure if I can stretch the truth all the way to present a case that they were Greeks either. That is demeaning to the multi-cultural society that made up Ottoman Turkey.

But rest assured, prior to the persecution of Christians in Muslim Turkey, it was a cozy environment for the people you refer to as Greeks there. So much so, that they needed a lot of convincing to move. Please compare that with the Macedonians of modern Greece ... who left in droves. Even though they were not being slaughtered.