Greeks, seriously.

[Giorikas]

Hi, you are a smart chap
There is a whole thread in the History section about Greek Refugees who came to Greece and spoke Turkish. Your friends here find it mindboggling how a Greek can speak Turkish . They seem to think these people are Turks.
Please help them put 2 and 2 together!!!

I haven't read up on that. It's very simple really. Today's Greece was part of the Ottoman emprire, as today's Macedonia was, as today's Turkey was.
If, on the basis of being from a territory that we call Turkey today, those Greeks are merely Christian Turks, then so are the Macedonians, the Serbs, the Bulgarians or the Greeks from today's Greece.

In fact more glory to those that (ftou) some here call Christian Turks. They retained their language, their culture and religion. Even the Karamanlides that were completely surrounded and isolated by Turks retained something that clearly distinguishes them from Turkish Ottomans, namely the alphabet. Apart from religion of course. The fact they were expelled proves it. The Pontioi..respect for them. They chose not to be absorbed by the large masses. They are the real Greeks. The Smyrni Greeks... I go regularly to Turkey and everybody is familiar with the term 'Gavur' Izmir. That's not for nothing either. They - as a half joke - call them still Greeks. (but make no mistake they see them as full Turks which they are)

Now, in comparison, I read a thread on Maknews recently where the aim of the exercise was to mention words that are pure and uniquely Macedonian and I noticed that a Slovenian just kept shooting holes in those unique Maceonian words. Easily. And there were not that many anyway that distinguished the words from let's say neighbouring countries. In some cases the ethymology was Turkish but not recognised as such. Talk about distortion .. This in comparison with the so called 'Christian Turks'.
Many of the Macedonian symbols (whether language, or religion, or habits, or kings, or heroes) are disputed but in comparison, that was not the case with 'Christian Turks'. Disputed anyway, not just by Greeks. Also by others. Heck even Macedonians have some serious doubts about some tof the things that are being spread. Presidents for example. It's a weird story, but if I would repeat what a Macedonian president or ambassador said it would be expelled as if I was a communist rebel in Greece half a century ago.

I did not intend to bring all of that up when I first made my appearance here but this double standard self identifying standard and constant flirting with the sense of being more 'ethnic' caused that.
I said it before to the folks here, either take the moral highground and show the untolerant Greeks how you want them to act, or don't but do not expect kindness back. I prefer that we can all agree to discuss in the first way. You call me nothing other then how I identify, and I will do the same here. Outside the board we can all do and say what we want.

Giorikas

[Risto the Great]

G, those christians left a country behind called Turkey from 1923.
Macedonians had nothing to do with a country called Turkey. Get your facts straight.

I saw the Maknews thread re the unique Macedonian words. A few did quote Turkish words. The Macedonian language in its entirety is the most unique slavic language in existence today. It strayed from many slavic conventions and yet still allows us to understand other slavic languages. Quite remarkable and certainly a product of its surroundings. Quite normal and not unlike English.

I am perplexed at how Greeks persist in grouping this hotchpotch of transplanted ethnicities in modern Turkey under the definition of a modern Greek. Again, I think it is demeaning to these people. Especially as (for some) they had far more of a connection with Hellenic languages than many modern Greeks of 100 years ago.

The "Christian Turks" you mention were not disputed because they were of the Orthodox faith which had taken on quite a distinct Hellenic flavour by that stage in Istanbul. Please do not suggest Orthodoxy is Greek, that is "cafe talk".

[Risto the Great]

You call me nothing other then how I identify, and I will do the same here.

I will do whatever you want (for yourself) but your Hellenic Dream is not necessarily going to be accepted when you refer to other peoples.

[Risto the Great]

Well, sort of.., since today's Macedonia does not equal the territories of ancient Macedonia, Greece would in that case be entitled to have that right as country that has the larger part of Classical Macedonia.

GOLD!

From your statement, we could infer that in a retarded and utterly confused Greek's mind that "Greece only, has a right to classical Macedonia."

Cafe talk, cafe talk Giorikas.

See ... now you will have to prove why antiquity has got anything to do with this whatsoever.

[drle]

Hi, you are a smart chap
There is a whole thread in the History section about Greek Refugees who came to Greece and spoke Turkish. Your friends here find it mindboggling how a Greek can speak Turkish . They seem to think these people are Turks.
Please help them put 2 and 2 together!!!

But they are Turks, they lived in Turkey didn't they? That would make them Turkish.

The same way Pontians and Greek Refugees think they are Macedonians today becuase they live in the province of Macedonia is the same way they lived in an area in Turkey....get the drift?

[Venom]

Welcome Drle!

Gorillas, do you actually believe anything you post? Or do you read it from "Hellenism for Dummies" and just paste it word for word?

Because really, you're just presenting the same tired bullshit arguements over and over -- arguments that have already been ripped apart.

In 2008 the only way to prove ethnicity is via a passport?! So if I came to your house, belted you across the head with a cricket bat each time you said you were greek and forced you to get a Macedonian passport and forget the greek one, would that automatically make you a Macedonian?

That's laughable.

[Giorikas]

G, those christians left a country behind called Turkey from 1923.
Macedonians had nothing to do with a country called Turkey. Get your facts straight.

I saw the Maknews thread re the unique Macedonian words. A few did quote Turkish words. The Macedonian language in its entirety is the most unique slavic language in existence today. It strayed from many slavic conventions and yet still allows us to understand other slavic languages. Quite remarkable and certainly a product of its surroundings. Quite normal and not unlike English.

I am perplexed at how Greeks persist in grouping this hotchpotch of transplanted ethnicities in modern Turkey under the definition of a modern Greek. Again, I think it is demeaning to these people. Especially as (for some) they had far more of a connection with Hellenic languages than many modern Greeks of 100 years ago.

The "Christian Turks" you mention were not disputed because they were of the Orthodox faith which had taken on quite a distinct Hellenic flavour by that stage in Istanbul. Please do not suggest Orthodoxy is Greek, that is "cafe talk".

Risto,

Some of your people left a country that was called Greece. According to your theorie they must be Slavic speaking Greeks.

Those Greeks you mention identified with Greeks. They were expelled for it, so that settles it.

[Giorikas]

I will do whatever you want (for yourself) but your Hellenic Dream is not necessarily going to be accepted when you refer to other peoples.

Thank you. You are entitled to disagree with me, and I do the same when it comes to your theories.

I think it takes a bit of the nastiness away from the discussions.

[Giorikas]

GOLD!

From your statement, we could infer that in a retarded and utterly confused Greek's mind that "Greece only, has a right to classical Macedonia."

Cafe talk, cafe talk Giorikas.

See ... now you will have to prove why antiquity has got anything to do with this whatsoever.

I am following the logic that I read here. (for the record I had asked for a sort of a unified statement on which you base your links with Ancient Macedonians because it seems that most Macedonians can not agree).

This logic says: you are Macedonians (put aside if that means related to ancient Macedonians) because we have lived in Macedonia many years and even if we are not related completely Macedonians, we are the most entitled to carry that name. It is the same flawed and hopelessly simplified logic that says that anyone that lived in a country we call Turkey today must therefore be Turkish.

Well, that is not the case anymore if you consider that the territories that you consider to be occupied by Greece. The theory is not valid. Get over it. If you have ancestry in today's Greece, then that means surely that you are Greek then, or not ?

[Risto the Great]

Risto,

Some of your people left a country that was called Greece. According to your theorie they must be Slavic speaking Greeks.

Those Greeks you mention identified with Greeks. They were expelled for it, so that settles it.

No, you cannot compare Macedonians who left Greece with that of the various people that left Turkey. But to follow your statement, they (grammatically) would be Macedonian speaking Greeks (or Greek Nationals) ... not "slavic".

The "people" I mentioned identified with the Orthodox church. Not the Greek Orthodox church (by the way). The fact that the Turks did not bother to look any closer at them than that is their problem.

[Risto the Great]

I am following the logic that I read here. (for the record I had asked for a sort of a unified statement on which you base your links with Ancient Macedonians because it seems that most Macedonians can not agree).

This logic says: you are Macedonians (put aside if that means related to ancient Macedonians) because we have lived in Macedonia many years and even if we are not related completely Macedonians, we are the most entitled to carry that name. It is the same flawed and hopelessly simplified logic that says that anyone that lived in a country we call Turkey today must therefore be Turkish.

Well, that is not the case anymore if you consider that the territories that you consider to be occupied by Greece. The theory is not valid. Get over it. If you have ancestry in today's Greece, then that means surely that you are Greek then, or not ?

Most Greeks cannot even remember their Grandparents spoke a completely different language. So there is no need to worry about discordance amongst Macedonians too much my friend.

I am as Greek as you are Chinese.

I have no idea what you are hoping to convey with your text above. But your flawed logic says only Greeks have a claim on Ancient Macedonia. Why is this? Do you claim the Venetians as well? They represent a very significant part of the region's history.

Here it is (according to a realist):

Ancient Macedonians
- No academic has confirmed their native language. It was not understood by people to the South of them.
- They went through a Hellenistic period for a few hundred years.
- They went through a Roman period for a few hundred years.
- They went through a Slavic period for 1500 years.
- They went through an Ottoman period for 500 of those slavic years.
= Modern Macedonians.

I claim continual evolution. Greeks claim continuity. Who is closer to the truth ... well mine is easier to achieve. And our DNA appears to support my claims.

If you want to tell me the Greekness of Macedonians ... well you are talking about the Greekness of Greeks in a modern sense and will run around in circles until the better fed cows from Macedonia come home.

Perhaps you could advise Dora to call the Southern part of Macedonia as ANCIENT MACEDONIA. I am sure it will give Greeks that warm feeling of cultural superiority that they strive for. I think it is a genuine solution that suits Greece entirely. Macedonians are quite simply a modern race just like Greeks. If you want to read any more into it, then be prepared for a thorough de-construction of the modern Greek identity.

[osiris]

i wish i could add something to what you have written rtg, but you have covered and expressed my emotions as well if not better than i could have. a question rtg, how many more times must we repeat it before the wannabbeeees finally grasp it.

[Risto the Great]

i wish i could add something to what you have written rtg, but you have covered and expressed my emotions as well if not better than i could have. a question rtg, how many more times must we repeat it before the wannabbeeees finally grasp it.

Thanks Osiris,
you know ... it could stop tomorrow if the Greeks grow up and live and let live.

[Dejan]

Great post Risto!

Alal da ti je!

[fatso]

Thanks Osiris,
you know ... it could stop tomorrow if the Greeks grow up and live and let live.

I was hoping the Papandreaou government would be different if ever elected. Unfortunately Greece's position on Macedonia has as much of a chance at changing as the U.S. foreign policy has at changing....very discouraging.