Hellenic religion

[sf.]

You are isolated somewhere together with two other people, one being a Macedonian Muslim who speaks the same language as we do, has the same culture and customs, etc, and the other is a Greek Christian who doesn't even recognise your right to exist, but is a devout believer in the same faith as us. Leave aside character type, attitude, etc, as the Macedonian might turn out to be a prick and the Greek a really good bloke, but that is not the point of the question here.

Who would you feel more affinity to?

If you were put in a position where a choice had to be made, which identity takes priority, the Christian or the Macedonian?

These are two different questions. But, why does there have to be a choice between your ethnic and religious identity, and who and why is imposing this choice?

[Buktop]

These are two different questions. But, why does there have to be a choice between your ethnic and religious identity, and who and why is imposing this choice?

The reason becomes evident in the hypothetical situation provided by SoM above the question you highlighted.

[Atanasovski]

You are isolated somewhere together with two other people, one being a Macedonian Muslim who speaks the same language as we do, has the same culture and customs, etc, and the other is a Greek Christian who doesn't even recognise your right to exist, but is a devout believer in the same faith as us.

I don't know how a genuine Christian could not recognise another human beings right to exist since we are all created in the image of God.
But anyway, one lives and one dies? The Greek man is a genuine Christian and the Macedonian man is a muslim and a total jackass. Easy - I would choose the Macedonian. Heres why: He is a Muslim and I am a Christian. If Christianity is true, he dies he goes to hell for eternity.

[sf.]

The reason becomes evident in the hypothetical situation provided by SoM above the question you highlighted.

I recognise the hypothetical and still stand by my statement and question.

If I'm not mistaken:

Citation 1: he discusses affinity with fellow human beings.

Citation 2: relating to self-identity - supported by this question:

What is more important to you, your Macedonian or Christian identity?

[makedonche]

No, not quite, Carlton and Ford have nothing to do with each other, so let's not use irrelevant parallels. I too consider myself a Macedonian and a Christian, but I consider myself a Macedonian first and foremost, hence the example with the Macedonian Muslim and the Greek Christian.

I will ask again, for the third time, and I won't bother giving more examples because you know exactly what I am talking about. It seems that nobody participating in this discussion wants to address this rather simple question. If you were put in a position where a choice had to be made, which identity takes priority, the Christian or the Macedonian?

My Macedonian identity comes first and foremost above all else. I have already given my answer. Is anybody else prepared to do the same?

SoM
Good question, easy answer - I'm born Macedonian, then I get christened and become a christian! If there was an option/choice of the two - simple answer again - Macedonian! Let he who is foolish enough, try to take that away from me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vangelovski]

No, not quite, Carlton and Ford have nothing to do with each other, so let's not use irrelevant parallels. I too consider myself a Macedonian and a Christian, but I consider myself a Macedonian first and foremost, hence the example with the Macedonian Muslim and the Greek Christian.

I will ask again, for the third time, and I won't bother giving more examples because you know exactly what I am talking about. It seems that nobody participating in this discussion wants to address this rather simple question. If you were put in a position where a choice had to be made, which identity takes priority, the Christian or the Macedonian?

My Macedonian identity comes first and foremost above all else. I have already given my answer. Is anybody else prepared to do the same?

SoM,

I think I've given my answer. I don't see a contradiction between being a Macedonian and a Christian. I cannot see how one can separate the two. And this goes for people of other religions who are genuine believers and not just members on paper.

Being a Christian is not about being a member of a club or group. Being a Christian is not really an identity either. It is about having a personal relationship with God, just as you would have a personal relationship with your parents. Asking me which one I would choose is like me asking me whether I am a Macedonian or a Vangelovski. As far as I'm concerned, the two are interlocked and inseparable.


I hope this makes sense.

[Bratot]

I don't know how a genuine Christian could not recognise another human beings right to exist since we are all created in the image of God.
But anyway, one lives and one dies? The Greek man is a genuine Christian and the Macedonian man is a muslim and a total jackass. Easy - I would choose the Macedonian. Heres why: He is a Muslim and I am a Christian. If Christianity is true, he dies he goes to hell for eternity.

You are not sure about it?

Being a Christian doesn't makes you of 'better' kind but how you live your life, and it's not enough to be a selfdeclared Christian in order to be permitted to heaven.

We are all judged by our acts, God is one and the faith in him doesn't require to have proper designation of how to call him or our religion.

[Atanasovski]

Being a Christian doesn't makes you of 'better' kind but how you live your life, and it's not enough to be a selfdeclared Christian in order to be permitted to heaven.

I don't disagree... The gates of heaven don't open if i claim to know Jesus, they will open if Jesus knows me...

We are all judged by our acts, God is one and the faith in him doesn't require to have proper designation of how to call him or our religion

If i am judged by my acts then God is Just to send me to hell on that day, for i am not blameless. If God over looks my crimes without punishment, then he is morally inadequate and is not a good God.
But instead, if God accepts my debt as paid in full by the blood of Jesus, then God is Just to let me in.

[Atanasovski]

Thanks for chatting Julie! I just want to say that the philosophies you have sound very unique and you have obviously had some pretty amazing experiences. I also want to say that there are some things about it that just concern me and I am in no way trying to put you down or offend you.
It was a lot to take in but I think I’m beginning to understand you better.
I’m not sure who or what God is in your view and I’m not sure what role God plays because you have stated that we are all God and this has confused me. Do all the souls in the universe make up one ultimate God when put together? Have our souls always existed since they are God? Or did we bring ourselves into being some time ago? If we are God then why are we so broken? Why do we feel convicted when external and objective moral laws impose themselves on us? Where do they come from? To me it is just so painfully obvious that we are not God because we are not in control, we are seriously, seriously limited, depraved and flawed.

Something else that concerns me is the idea that we will all be ultimately set free in this pool of souls. It doesn’t matter if you lived like Stalin or Theresa, ultimately it makes no difference, ultimately there is no justice, and ultimately there is no meaning to this life. The destination is a heavenly pool of souls. You have started that Karma is the philosophy that provides justice, but in a world like ours we know far to well that there is a harsh reality and it is often the nice guy that finishes last. It is often the rich drug lord who will die peacefully in his sleep. It is the corrupt politicians and the corrupt religious leaders who will live a long and healthy life. It is the innocent child that will die from cancer or starvation. It is the innocent child that is gunned down, raped, tortured and molested. When looking at the world for what it really is, we cannot hide behind the idea that karma was and is and will be making things right.

Reincarnation doesn’t deal with this problem either. My example was that someone could live as greedy-murderous-deceitful-rapist, become a ring worm in the next life, and since animals are not moral agents you would expect that they would simply be promoted to a human again in the following life. It does not make sense to say, for example, that a ring worm lived a morally bad life. So here you are as a human again, with a clean slate, you may choose to live as a devil, or behave yourself for a few cycles so that you will be promoted to a higher level, perhaps a Macedonian, and then you may choose to experience the life of a child molesting cannibal, and drop down a few levels. It is just so meaningless.

I know you have stated that Jesus’ teaching of heaven and hell is open to interpretation, but in your honest opinion, if Jesus was the most perfect soul and saviour etc etc, don’t you think he would have taught the people the philosophies such as karma, reincarnation, and that we are all God-souls? Instead Jesus preached about the coming judgment. I’m just flicking through the bible now, and thinking of Jesus’ teachings and his character… I can’t help but wonder what you think the Jesus portrayed in the gospels would make of your beliefs?

I guess what im wondering is, with your philosophies and beliefs, why have you bothered inventing a different Jesus?

[julie]

ATANASOVSKI

There is an almighty presence, that is God, the creator that most souls of this world believe in.
Relating to my experience and making sense out of it, there is a supreme being, which is omni present. God made man, woman in his own likeness, and we recognise other souls on earth for the shape they are in. This other dimension, or heaven, is where all souls go. That is where the process of purification happens, up to 40 days it states in some of the books I have read. There is a link to a website, and will try and find it for you if you want me too
Jesus is our saviour, yes, was sent to us, not to fear God but to love God. Religion per se uses people in a way that instils fear in them. Jesus did not threaten or manipulate anyone, oh to have lived and had the hand of Jesus touch me today! I did not make up my own Jesus , Atanasovski, so am hoping that was not meant as a derogatory way, but I don’t think you meant it that way.
There has and always only every be one Jesus Christ. He was without sin, and I keep saying, the only earth walking perfect divine human being on the earthly planet. Purity in its utmost form. God sent hi m to us so that we may be saved. And he did this so that we may recognise god within him, humans being visual creatures that we ultimately are
If God made us in his likeness, then we have part of God within us, it is really hard for me to articulate, and that is the way I see it, and it is all open to interpretation. But that was my experience.
It is my personal experience that lead me to question, and as I said I tried to talk to a priest who mocked me, and what I questioned from what I had read within the bible, he could not answer.

When you speak of sins and crimes and temptation, that is all part of free will. These abhorrent souls have a choice to do these things, and karma is simply Christian judgement day scenario eg when you die, if you have sinned and not repented, you go to hell. I did not experience that dimension, I experienced a beautiful, surreal, ethereal state of pure unconditional love, and I loved it, I did not want to come back, either as a teenager, nor as a mother of 3 very young toddlers – it surpasses everything, being filled with this Holy Spirit, and I have yet to meet a priest that can explain what happened to me. I tried to bring it up with one of our priests, who proceeded to laugh and scoff. That unnerved me so I basically shut up. I would love to meet one of our priests who will take the time to listen to my experience and explain what he thinks happened and whee I went. It was surely Heaven. And I can so guys, it is the most beautiful loving peaceful and spirit filled whole place to be, and to have no fear of death unless you are one of the maggots that you describe Atanasovski of being.
Now everything in life happens for a reason. Call it destiny, some people say destiny is predetermined , some say we create our own. With the Buddhist philosophy its about the present. This minute, this second, and to appreciate what we have in living in the moment. Some people are bitter, they live in the past, some are dreamers and look to the future and life passes us by. Every person we come into contact with on this planet, within our lifetime may be pre determined destiny, but it is for a reason. It is not from the actions of these people but from what we learn from that experience. To teach us something about ourselves. We take ownership , instead of blaming others and being negative
My life the last 10 years since the second experience, have tried to be the best person I cam be. If someone does me harm , I am not going to hate them because that will stay with me , I try to forgive that person in my heart and move on from it, because I will hurt my divine soul if I hang onto it. A good example is a bitter person who says, they have had a hard life and continue to blame others for their bad life instead of trying to make a change. One must be pro active in that. And try to have love and compassion in their heart, and lives, for themselves and others
I wish I could personally talk to a Macedonian priest, I was christened Macedonian Orthodox as were my 3 boys, and you cant take the Macedonian blood out of me, I love my people and would die for them

[julie]

As for the children of this world, I love all children and despise human suffering. I dont watch news, and I cry when I hear or see unspeakable actions inflicted upon the young. I have 3 sons, all of their friends for some reason call me mum. I love them all, they are sacred souls that deserve love and nurturing, for they are the future of this effed up world we live in. Meaningless, yes. Wjat is the meaning of life Atansovski? Because that is what it comes to batko. It is not for us to say what is Gods will = that is predetermined, and its not the souls that God chooses for his garden albeit very young, I lost a little girl and it broke me, but he sent my angel to me, to teach ME something about myself. everything happens for a reason, if you know what the meaning of life is, then can you please enlighten me?
I am 44 years old. I think the meaning of my existence was to give birth to my wonderful children, so that they may give good out to the universe, to this world , and have tried to instil values and morals in them, and not to have judgement toward others.
My eldest is halfway through a science degree. Biomedical nanotechnology. He calls himself an atheist now, I remember thinking I knew it all when I was 20 too. We have some healthy and sometimes heated debates - he says its evolution, I say it has to be both, some say its one or the other, and we all argue!

Why are we arguing? If we cannot live our lives as decent law abiding moral human beings with love and compassion and forgiveness and no judgement (God is the only one to say we are right or wrong) then please, perhaps you could tell me what is the meaning of my existence batko?

[makedonin]

My Macedonian identity comes first and foremost above all else. I have already given my answer. Is anybody else prepared to do the same?

Exactly my thoughts! For me, being Christian is no Identity. It was used so in previous centuries, but it brought only misery to the Macedonian people!

[Serdarot]

My Macedonian identity comes first and foremost above all else. I have already given my answer. Is anybody else prepared to do the same?

i am born as Macedon

AFTER that i got Baptized.

i can change the Religion, but not the FACT that i am born as Macedonian...

so there is no question at all in my head

[julie]

SoM

[QUOTE=julie;63116]SoM, we are what we are born, unless brainwashed into it otherwise. Macedonian blood flows through my veins, That is what I am and what makes me who I am, no one will ever be able to take that from me, name change or not

makedonka mayme me rodi
edno ime imame vo dushata go nosime

heart and soul. I am Macedonian. Period.

[makedonin]

Philosopher, you are a apologist!

You find the slightest straw and hole to explain something which is obvious contradiction! And that what you give as explaination is mare assuption, a vague posibility that it might or might not have been so! Good example is your statement, "if someone does not speaks of the other, it does not means he wasn't there!" But it is no evidence that he was there, you know! And still you use the phrase and want me believe you that it was so!

It is disgusting to look you desperately try to explain something, to cover the corpse, cause what you wan't to cover stinks to the core!

Don't you have something else to pull out of your ass? I know what angelos in Greek means! The one uses the word, the other not! Yes we can pull the game if you like, but that is no evidence, it is only a assumption, a wild guess like your "mistical knowledge" you present all the time!

What you try to explain is exactly the problem of the Bible is. You can't make any sense out of it with out further explaining things, can you?


You use the OT to explain the NT, and than jump to the OT to explain the NT! In between you throw some wild guesses and assumptions to glew them together!

Man, when will you get it! Many Books in the OT are written prior the NT with time gap about 100-1000 years! Those who wrote the NT, it was their Job to know the OT by their heart! It is only natural for them to use OT "prophecies" and claim that those prophecies got fulfilled in the NT on basis of what they are "eyewitnessing".

Than your compadre will come and talk about methodologies! Not even a real historian will fall so low!

To whome am I talking here! I have to quit this bad habit of mine!