Macedonia and the European Union

[Karposh]

If there is an open conflict with Albanians I guarantee you that we are not ready for that, and much like 2001 we will roll over and give them more then they wanted in the first place.

Gocka, that is an alarmingly defeatist attitude. We’ve had 16 years to prepare for a repeat of 2001. Surely that’s enough time to get our shit together.

Since everyone is invoking the name of Delchev, when Delchev ran around like a man possessed trying to secretly procure as many guns as he possibly could, his compatriots were still reliant on wooden canons and home made guns such as the “Tetovki” and “Debranki”. It wasn’t until late 1896 that several thousand, very old, Bulgarian-made, “Krimki” rifles found their way into Macedonia, and only as a result of the Bulgarian army having undergone a recent process of modernisation and upgrading of its inventory with Austrian-made Mannlicher rifles. Thanks to the Bulgarians’ offloading of some of their rusty old guns, which were supplied with no bullets (deemed too much of a risk to the Bulgarian government of the time), Macedonians were encouraged to put up some sort of fight against the Turks.

We’ve now had our own country for over a quarter of a century, for fuck’s sake. How much more time do we need to be ready to defend ourselves – another 25 years, 50 years, 100?

[Risto the Great]

It's not our own country. That's the fundamental issue. I would say Macedonia is far less ready for internal conflict now as compared to 2001.

[Gocka]

Its not defeatist its the truth and its dangerous to assume otherwise. What has Macedonia done since 2001? Incorporate large numbers of Albanians into the army? Put a former terrorist as the defense minister? I have friends in ARM, their training is laughable at best, their discipline is even worse. Private Macedonian citizens are usually unarmed and have almost not firearms experience, go to an Albanian village and half of them have AK47's in the basement. Also if there is ever a conflict, there will be a lot of pressure from the west to back down, do you trust our current leaders to stay the course, because I don't. If you don't plan on fighting to the bitter end then you might as well not fight at all, because you will lose.

I also think its very cute that you think we've had a country for 25 years, by my math we had a country for about a year or two at best. Its all about mentality my friend, we have man power and weapons but that amounts to nothing if the other side wants to win more than you do.

Gocka, that is an alarmingly defeatist attitude. We’ve had 16 years to prepare for a repeat of 2001. Surely that’s enough time to get our shit together.

Since everyone is invoking the name of Delchev, when Delchev ran around like a man possessed trying to secretly procure as many guns as he possibly could, his compatriots were still reliant on wooden canons and home made guns such as the “Tetovki” and “Debranki”. It wasn’t until late 1896 that several thousand, very old, Bulgarian-made, “Krimki” rifles found their way into Macedonia, and only as a result of the Bulgarian army having undergone a recent process of modernisation and upgrading of its inventory with Austrian-made Mannlicher rifles. Thanks to the Bulgarians’ offloading of some of their rusty old guns, which were supplied with no bullets (deemed too much of a risk to the Bulgarian government of the time), Macedonians were encouraged to put up some sort of fight against the Turks.

We’ve now had our own country for over a quarter of a century, for fuck’s sake. How much more time do we need to be ready to defend ourselves – another 25 years, 50 years, 100?

[Albo]

There are major constitutional changes which chart a very different course for the nation and question its' existential purpose, being agreed to in a post-election situation not part of the election campaigns.

There are no constitutional changes that can be discussed or changed .. 2/3 of a majority are needed to change the constitution... neither party or coalition has that ability.. anyone who says that the constitution is at risk.. is simply boasting vmro propaganda!

[Rogi]

Albo, you are only referring to the mechanics by which constitutional changes can eventually happen. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm referring to the fundamental principles which define the nation and its' existential purpose and in this regard, the conversation in Macedonia Today, most certainly is a discussion on constitutional changes.

[Albo]

the fundamental principles which define the nation and its' existential purpose

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

By granting Albanians wider use of Albanian and by greater decentralization (EU Laws) ( Which is basically what the "Joint Albanian party decleration" is) .. nobody is taking away from Macedonians the right to live exactly as they have been as Macedonians in any shape or form..

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Multi language use at all levels of government is common in many European and Balkan countries ..
It's not something that needs to be feared ..
Europe is based on cultural, linguistic and religious diversity..

I seriously don't understand the hysteria and fear that has been generated amongst the population.. It's totally unnecessary in my and every other Albanians eyes, not to mention the European officials who don't understand the fear and revolt against 25%-35% Of the population using their language at a wider official level..

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Why the fear??

[Karposh]

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Well that's very kind of the EU and the Albanians.

[Redsun]

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

By granting Albanians wider use of Albanian and by greater decentralization (EU Laws) ( Which is basically what the "Joint Albanian party decleration" is) .. nobody is taking away from Macedonians the right to live exactly as they have been as Macedonians in any shape or form..

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Multi language use at all levels of government is common in many European and Balkan countries ..
It's not something that needs to be feared ..
Europe is based on cultural, linguistic and religious diversity..

I seriously don't understand the hysteria and fear that has been generated amongst the population.. It's totally unnecessary in my and every other Albanians eyes, not to mention the European officials who don't understand the fear and revolt against 25%-35% Of the population using their language at a wider official level..

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Why the fear??

Europe is divided upon cultural, linguistic and religious differences.


You question "what do Macedonians lose", tell me "what do Macedonians gain"?

How will multi language within the government be of benefit to Macedonia? Why do you believe multi language in government is necessary? What is so necessary about it?

How will this be of advantage to the government and the nation.

Explain to me why you don't believe this will be an inconvenience because I cant see how it can be of any convenience, please explain.

It is totally unnecessary, what benefit will be gained by having a second language in government.

[Risto the Great]

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

You're saying the majority should dictate the terms. Bravo!

By granting Albanians wider use of Albanian and by greater decentralization (EU Laws) ( Which is basically what the "Joint Albanian party decleration" is) .. nobody is taking away from Macedonians the right to live exactly as they have been as Macedonians in any shape or form..

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Multi language use at all levels of government is common in many European and Balkan countries ..
It's not something that needs to be feared ..
Europe is based on cultural, linguistic and religious diversity..

I seriously don't understand the hysteria and fear that has been generated amongst the population.. It's totally unnecessary in my and every other Albanians eyes, not to mention the European officials who don't understand the fear and revolt against 25%-35% Of the population using their language at a wider official level..

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Why the fear??

Macedonians are losing the homeland of Macedonians. Albanians have a homeland that helps forge and affirm their identity in countries outside of Albania. Macedonia and Macedonians will not have this. All because of a very vocal minority that is useful to external powers.

Why the fear?

Lose Albania and then tell me what you are Albo.

[Rogi]

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

Very interesting Albo. How much of the population? 20%, 25%, 30%, 50%?
But more importantly, what are those wants and needs? What do you, personally, view as the existential purpose of Macedonia? Then tell me what you, personally, view as the existential purpose of Albania?

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Macedonians would lose the homeland of Macedonians and become citizens of a state as opposed to citizens of a Macedonian nation-state.

Tell me Albo, what do Albanians in Macedonia gain and how does their quality of life improve by making Albanian the official language in Macedonia across all of Macedonia even where there are no Albanians - given it is already the primary language in areas where Albanians are the majority (and in many cases the Macedonian language has been wiped out from road-signs, official websites, etc), or changing the national anthem, or changing the flag, or the name of the country, or modifying its' currency?

What will they really gain, over and above what the Albanians in Macedonia have Today where there is Albanian, officially in any area with more than 20% Albanian population with Albanian schools, universities, media, cultural groups, Albanians forming Government, Albanians in the police force and military, with Albanian Ministers, Albanian-owned businesses and opportunities equal to (and in some cases, due to the 'positive discrimination' laws of 2001 which disregard merit, where Albanians must be hired before Macedonians to ensure a quota is met) Macedonians?
And what do the Macedonians gain with all of that?

[Albo]

Europe is divided upon cultural, linguistic and religious differences.


You question "what do Macedonians lose", tell me "what do Macedonians gain"?

How will multi language within the government be of benefit to Macedonia? Why do you believe multi language in government is necessary? What is so necessary about it?

How will this be of advantage to the government and the nation.

Explain to me why you don't believe this will be an inconvenience because I cant see how it can be of any convenience, please explain.

It is totally unnecessary, what benefit will be gained by having a second language in government.

Look.. since Independence Albanians in Macedonia have constantly been accused as not being loyal to the state.. and yes many haven't felt as if the Macedonian elite of RoM have truly respected or really wanted them to be a part of the state.. one only needs to read many comments on here or listen to the protesters on the streets of Macedonia from people who openly declare that they want a "Cista Makedonia" (pure Macedonia) or
"Smrt za Shiptari" death to the Albanians or other despicable slogans such as "The cursed Albanians" or the old favorite " Gas Chambers for the Albanians"

The whole idea of the Ohrid Agreement and the Albanian party Decleration which are supported by Albanian parties are to show that we don't want to divide Macedonia, nothing in the declaration harms anyone, but as joint ancestral inhabitants of this territory who make up a considerable number of the population who have contributed in the formation and governing of the state, we want to be on equal par institutionally and one day possibly constitutionally ..

What we ask for is recognition and legal protection that respects out linguistic and cultural heritage on this territory for today and future generations regardless of the % that we are... which only encourages EVIL institutional policies who's main aim is to make life as difficult as possible and offer next to zero perspective of living a normal life in ur homeland so you have no choice but to spend the majority of the year abroad working and sending money for those left behind to survive.

I believe this might truly be the last chance that we have to work together and press the reset button and work towards a joint common future where we can spend our energies in a unified prosperous manner where we all benefit...

We need to sort out all ethnic issues that have been reoccurring for decades so they aren't issues anymore.. and we don't need nationalist retohric being recycled over and over that leads nowhere..

The wider use of Albanian and proportional budgetary regional distribution will will make Albanians look more to Skopje and not Tirana or Prishtina to deal with our problems.. We have done our bit .. we broke the ice.. we overcame the Balkan mentality..we voted for a Macedonian party.. we put forward a Decleration that harms nobody.. Official language status have ZERO EFFECT on Macedonian identity as does Serbian being official in Kosovo which has ZERO effect on Albanian identify ...

[mklion]

Look.. since Independence Albanians in Macedonia have constantly been accused as not being loyal to the state.. and yes many haven't felt as if the Macedonian elite of RoM have truly respected or really wanted them to be a part of the state.. one only needs to read many comments on here or listen to the protesters on the streets of Macedonia from people who openly declare that they want a "Cista Makedonia" (pure Macedonia) or
"Smrt za Shiptari" death to the Albanians or other despicable slogans such as "The cursed Albanians" or the old favorite " Gas Chambers for the Albanians"

The whole idea of the Ohrid Agreement and the Albanian party Decleration which are supported by Albanian parties are to show that we don't want to divide Macedonia, nothing in the declaration harms anyone, but as joint ancestral inhabitants of this territory who make up a considerable number of the population who have contributed in the formation and governing of the state, we want to be on equal par institutionally and one day possibly constitutionally ..

What we ask for is recognition and legal protection that respects out linguistic and cultural heritage on this territory for today and future generations regardless of the % that we are... which only encourages EVIL institutional policies who's main aim is to make life as difficult as possible and offer next to zero perspective of living a normal life in ur homeland so you have no choice but to spend the majority of the year abroad working and sending money for those left behind to survive.

When the Macedonians voted for independence in 1991 the Albanians boycotted the vote.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/10/world/macedonians-vote-for-independence-from-yugoslavia.html

When Macedonia held a census in 1991 the Albanians heavily disputed it and made us redo the census in 1994 (with extra cost to the state) only to come back with the same numbers.

In 2001 the Albanians almost brought the country to civil war. They obtained greater rights in the municipalities in which they live through the Ohrid Framework Agreement

In 2007 in Operation Mountain Storm - Albanian terrorists were arrested/killed

In 2009 and 2013 Albanian mayors were voted in Struga and Kicevo for the first time. The new mayors fired a good proportion of the Macedonian civil workers and put Albanians in their positions.

In 2011 the census was cancelled because Albanians tried to inflate their numbers for more rights

in 2012 5 Macedonians were killed before Easter at Lake Smilkovci. These Macedonians didn't do anything to the Albanians.

In 2014 in Diva Naselba 8 Macedonian policemen were killed by Albanian terrorists.

In 1992 and in 2014 Nezvat Halili officially proclaimed the independence of the "Republic of Ilirida"

In 2017 The Albanians got together in a foreign country and developed a "Tirana Platform" as the first step towards federalization of the country (don't bullshit us we all know what this is).

This was just the stuff I could think of in 10 minutes. So now we ask again. Does this seem like an ethnic group that is loyal to the Macedonian state?

Finally since the actual percentage of people doesn't matter in your opinion (ie all languages should be official irrespective of the actual percentage that use it) do you believe the small minority of Macedonians in Albania should have Macedonian as an official language in Albania? If not then why?

[DraganOfStip]

Look.. since Independence Albanians in Macedonia have constantly been accused as not being loyal to the state..

...and rightfully so.

and yes many haven't felt as if the Macedonian elite of RoM have truly respected or really wanted them to be a part of the state..

Respect isn't something that is given for granted, it is EARNED. And so far, your people in Macedonia have done nothing in the past 25 years to earn it.
When you disrespect the flag, anthem and all symbols and institutions of the country you live in, you can's expect anything less.

one only needs to read many comments on here or listen to the protesters on the streets of Macedonia from people who openly declare that they want a "Cista Makedonia" (pure Macedonia) or
"Smrt za Shiptari" death to the Albanians or other despicable slogans such as "The cursed Albanians" or the old favorite " Gas Chambers for the Albanians"

Those slogans and chants don't come unprovoked. Every reaction has an action that caused it. Chanting "UCK" on every Albanian rally, is only one of those actions.

The whole idea of the Ohrid Agreement and the Albanian party Decleration which are supported by Albanian parties are to show that we don't want to divide Macedonia, nothing in the declaration harms anyone, but as joint ancestral inhabitants of this territory who make up a considerable number of the population who have contributed in the formation and governing of the state, we want to be on equal par institutionally and one day possibly constitutionally ..

This agreement placed your people in a privileged position over the majority population of the country, you have been granted more rights than anywhere else in the world. Stop complaining.

What we ask for is recognition and legal protection that respects out linguistic and cultural heritage on this territory for today and future generations regardless of the % that we are...

You already have that! Your linguistic and cultural heritage is protected in places where Albanians are a majority for years now! You can't seriously expect that your language is imposed in areas where there are no Albanians in the first place? Your people are free to speak your language and cherish your cultural heritage in areas where you live, no one has a problem with that! Stop creating issues where there are none!

which only encourages EVIL institutional policies who's main aim is to make life as difficult as possible and offer next to zero perspective of living a normal life in ur homeland so you have no choice but to spend the majority of the year abroad working and sending money for those left behind to survive.

Congrats, you just described every Macedonian citizen regardless of his ethnic,racial or religious background. Welcome to 21st century Macedonia!

[Dejan]

This albo character smells like a paid mercenary. Spewing the same shit in various threads now. Basically spamming this forum. She's quick to get her generic albanian complaint in, but won't answer anything when her complaints are replied to.

[Albo]

Paid mercenary?? Wow.. now that's something I haven't been called before..
I working on getting back to as many posts as possible.. obviously I'm the odd one out here.. and responding to all is a little time consuming at times..