Macedonia and the European Union

[vicsinad]

Very well put, and I like the historical reference as well.

I said it in another thread and I still contend that Macedonians need a reprogramming. For a long time we have been trying to reach them by speaking about politics, about history, assuming that they just didn't have the right facts in order to come to the desired conclusions. I'm starting to realize the problem is something totally different.

We have a society in Macedonians that lacks something at its core. We are currently light years away from Macedonians being able to make wise political and social choices.

Let me if I may give a example that I think speaks volume about a morality and mentality problem. Anyone who has lived in a Macedonian village knows that this story is universal. Every village has a man or two that gets drunk and beats his wife. Everyone knows its happening, but how often does someone go and stop it? The prevailing logic is, "well its wrong, but its non of my business". This simplistic real life scenario, says a lot about someone. The same kind of man who could stand idly by and watch that happen day after day and do nothing, is the same man who allows their flag to be changed, or for the Tirana platform to be implemented. There are countless anecdotal examples of daily Macedonian behavior that speaks volumes about the character of its people.

If you really want to save Macedonia, you need Macedonians who at their core can not tolerate injustice, who feel the need to step in and stop something that is wrong, in their everyday life. The man who can do that is also the man who will not stand idly by while his country is stolen from under his feet.

Some may disagree, but Macedonians have large holes in their morality. Its the same reason Russia, a country of 140 million can not topple a hand full of brutal criminals.

Delcev identified this weakness in the Macedonian psyche, and in my opinion, it has only gotten worse.

How do you convince people to be this way, well the only way I can think of is to lead by example, and hope your actions don't go unnoticed.

This is well said.

[vicsinad]

First off, all I said was that half of Macedonians already support Zajko and the Tirana Platform which I qualified by pointing out the silence and lack of opposition towards Zajko’s intended course of action amongst what appears to be a large proportion of the population (which includes his own party officials and supporters).

The term traitor was introduced by Gocka in his assumption that that is what I consider SDS supporters to be (which I assume is derived from the fact that SDS supporters, who won 49 out of 120 seats at the elections, are not opposing Zajko’s intended course of action). I corrected that by clarifying that I consider DPNE supporters traitors as well. So when it comes to the label of “traitors”, I am not personally singling out any party over another in that respect.

On the contrary, it is you yourself who has attributed the words “traitor” and “anti-Macedonians” as describing those who support SDS and/or remain silent in opposition to the proposed implementation of the Tirana platform, which interestingly, are the very same people you seek to defend for having such stances. This seems to indicate an internal conundrum of values in my opinion.

Its funny how you interpreted my call for Macedonians to transcend political party allegiances to unite in opposition of the Tirana platform as counterproductive since my approach risks division (as though the division doesn't already exist between Macedonians). Also I'm not writing anyone off, I am making them aware of their accountability for the situation.

Nevertheless, you can rest easy in the fact that the way you wish to proceed with tackling this issue will likely transpire. Macedonians will continue to wait around for that elusive third option to manifest itself out of thin air; They will continue to utilise the technicalities and equitable principles to justify remaining divided since they are well aware of each current political parties true motives (they are after all definitely too smart to have the wool pulled over their eyes in that regard); They will continue to have other Macedonians defend their inactivity by spinning the moral context of issues to appease their sensitivities; and they will continue to remain ignorant of the eventual repercussions of their idleness. So don’t worry, you're right, excuse my counterproductive approach, take your time pampering to each and every Macedonian, educating them on what the implementation of the Tirana Platform will mean to their country. Take as much time as you and they need. In the interim period, here is their reward for their patience, intellectualism, equitable principles and moral sensitivities:

https://www.amazon.com/Beginners-Albanian-Audio-CDs-Hippocrene/dp/0781812801

https://www.amazon.com/Learn-Albania.../dp/1881901602

Do not attempt to minimize what you said. You lump Zajko and Tirana platform supporters in the same category, which indicates the political significance of your statement regardless of your after-the-fact classification of Dpne supporters. Maybe you dont realize the political overtones, but they are there and your statement cannot really be interpreted any other way. You cannot or will not disassociate Sds supporters from the Tirana platform. You can't or won't do this because you can only use the number "half" by including Sds supporters in your classification, and you can't easily imply anti-macedonianess in these Sds supporters' attitudes without the Tirana platform.

This is further evidenced by the fact that your sweeping statement doesn't say anything about silent dpne supporters. What, that they voted for Grujo means that they are anti Tirana platform so they don't figure into the group of people who support the Tirana platform, only zajko supporters do? And knowing that Albania has been meddling in Macedonian affairs for years and that Albanianization has increased in recent years, where was your fervent classification of Macedonians in such categories before Ivanov refused to grant sds the mandate or during dui and dpne's reign? It is clear to me that your approach has political overtones and is thus divisive and counter productive.

By the way, my classification of Tirana platform supporters as traitors and anti-macedonian was a interpretation of what I think you clearly meant. If I'm wrong please correct me. Do I think such platform is anti Macedonian? Of course. Do I come to the same conclusion as you that supposedly half of Macedonians are silent on the issue and that even if they were that means they are Tirana platform supporters and thus acting traitorous? No.

Please don't sit behind your computer screen trying to sniff out internal conundrums of values while labeling other approaches as mere pampering as your message to Zajko and supposed Tirana platform supporters falls onto the ears of a limited circle of Diaspora Macedonians. My values are fine and my only conundrum is figuring out how to be the best advocate for the Macedonian cause that I can be.

[Tomche Makedonche]

If we are going to make statements that categorize half of Macedonians as essentially traitors, we'd better have evidence. These are destructive and divisive accusations that should be used sparingly and only if they are accurate.

Further, regardless of their accuracy, what is the purpose? How long can we keep up the "you either stand with me or you stand for nothing" or "you're either with me or against me" attitude? Misirkov warned about how this mentality is self-defeating and how categorizing fellow Macedonians as such is counterproductive. So what goal are you trying to achieve by clumping half of Macedonians who aren't taking a desired action as anti-Macedonian? What does it actually accomplish? Is someone becoming enlightened or are we cornering individuals and fracturing our narod?

I have seen people take this attitude for years and it does nothing good. Instead of finding a way to positively service our people and nation it just creates barriers. When the followers of this approach would write off Macedonians the very way you're doing, Delchev and others would go out of their way to positively influence and persuade people, to encourage and motivate them,not to brand them as antiMacedonian simply because they did not reach the same conclusion in the same manner.

The Macedonians are obviously divided on political lines and no movement or party that doesn't simultaneously address the national, social and economic woes facing the Macedonians is going to gain the people's support. This holistic approach is what Vmro utilized in the 1890s and it worked to a certain degree because it recognized that the masses are not unified in needs, wants and abilities. We shouldn't expect the Tirana platform and the manner it was rejected by Dpne to create an uproar in the opposing political party and we shouldn't demand that it does unless we can disassociate the politics of it, given the context of the current Macedonian society. If the goal is to defeat Albanianization and to strengthen the Macedonian society and to promote an protect our culture and identity, there's a better way of going at it.

We have always been on the clock. It's no different now. Every last Macedonian is worthy of our time and efforts if we really want to see Macedonia succeed. After all, the Macedonian cause is about Macedonia and Macedonians. It is as much about human beings that belong to the same genetic and cultural stock as it is about national ideals. We cannot serve one without serving the other.

First off, all I said was that half of Macedonians already support Zajko and the Tirana Platform which I qualified by pointing out the silence and lack of opposition towards Zajko’s intended course of action amongst what appears to be a large proportion of the population (which includes his own party officials and supporters).

The term traitor was introduced by Gocka in his assumption that that is what I consider SDS supporters to be (which I assume is derived from the fact that SDS supporters, who won 49 out of 120 seats at the elections, are not opposing Zajko’s intended course of action). I corrected that by clarifying that I consider DPNE supporters traitors as well. So when it comes to the label of “traitors”, I am not personally singling out any party over another in that respect.

On the contrary, it is you yourself who has attributed the words “traitor” and “anti-Macedonians” as describing those who support SDS and/or remain silent in opposition to the proposed implementation of the Tirana platform, which interestingly, are the very same people you seek to defend for having such stances. This seems to indicate an internal conundrum of values in my opinion.

Its funny how you interpreted my call for Macedonians to transcend political party allegiances to unite in opposition of the Tirana platform as counterproductive since my approach risks division (as though the division doesn't already exist between Macedonians). Also I'm not writing anyone off, I am making them aware of their accountability for the situation.

Nevertheless, you can rest easy in the fact that the way you wish to proceed with tackling this issue will likely transpire. Macedonians will continue to wait around for that elusive third option to manifest itself out of thin air; They will continue to utilise the technicalities and equitable principles to justify remaining divided since they are well aware of each current political parties true motives (they are after all definitely too smart to have the wool pulled over their eyes in that regard); They will continue to have other Macedonians defend their inactivity by spinning the moral context of issues to appease their sensitivities; and they will continue to remain ignorant of the eventual repercussions of their idleness. So don’t worry, you're right, excuse my counterproductive approach, take your time pampering to each and every Macedonian, educating them on what the implementation of the Tirana Platform will mean to their country. Take as much time as you and they need. In the interim period, here is their reward for their patience, intellectualism, equitable principles and moral sensitivities:

https://www.amazon.com/Beginners-Albanian-Audio-CDs-Hippocrene/dp/0781812801

https://www.amazon.com/Learn-Albanian-Mesoni-Shqip-Albanian-English/dp/1881901602

[Gocka]

Very well put, and I like the historical reference as well.

I said it in another thread and I still contend that Macedonians need a reprogramming. For a long time we have been trying to reach them by speaking about politics, about history, assuming that they just didn't have the right facts in order to come to the desired conclusions. I'm starting to realize the problem is something totally different.

We have a society in Macedonians that lacks something at its core. We are currently light years away from Macedonians being able to make wise political and social choices.

Let me if I may give a example that I think speaks volume about a morality and mentality problem. Anyone who has lived in a Macedonian village knows that this story is universal. Every village has a man or two that gets drunk and beats his wife. Everyone knows its happening, but how often does someone go and stop it? The prevailing logic is, "well its wrong, but its non of my business". This simplistic real life scenario, says a lot about someone. The same kind of man who could stand idly by and watch that happen day after day and do nothing, is the same man who allows their flag to be changed, or for the Tirana platform to be implemented. There are countless anecdotal examples of daily Macedonian behavior that speaks volumes about the character of its people.

If you really want to save Macedonia, you need Macedonians who at their core can not tolerate injustice, who feel the need to step in and stop something that is wrong, in their everyday life. The man who can do that is also the man who will not stand idly by while his country is stolen from under his feet.

Some may disagree, but Macedonians have large holes in their morality. Its the same reason Russia, a country of 140 million can not topple a hand full of brutal criminals.

Delcev identified this weakness in the Macedonian psyche, and in my opinion, it has only gotten worse.

How do you convince people to be this way, well the only way I can think of is to lead by example, and hope your actions don't go unnoticed.

If we are going to make statements that categorize half of Macedonians as essentially traitors, we'd better have evidence. These are destructive and divisive accusations that should be used sparingly and only if they are accurate.

Further, regardless of their accuracy, what is the purpose? How long can we keep up the "you either stand with me or you stand for nothing" or "you're either with me or against me" attitude? Misirkov warned about how this mentality is self-defeating and how categorizing fellow Macedonians as such is counterproductive. So what goal are you trying to achieve by clumping half of Macedonians who aren't taking a desired action as anti-Macedonian? What does it actually accomplish? Is someone becoming enlightened or are we cornering individuals and fracturing our narod?

I have seen people take this attitude for years and it does nothing good. Instead of finding a way to positively service our people and nation it just creates barriers. When the followers of this approach would write off Macedonians the very way you're doing, Delchev and others would go out of their way to positively influence and persuade people, to encourage and motivate them,not to brand them as antiMacedonian simply because they did not reach the same conclusion in the same manner.

The Macedonians are obviously divided on political lines and no movement or party that doesn't simultaneously address the national, social and economic woes facing the Macedonians is going to gain the people's support. This holistic approach is what Vmro utilized in the 1890s and it worked to a certain degree because it recognized that the masses are not unified in needs, wants and abilities. We shouldn't expect the Tirana platform and the manner it was rejected by Dpne to create an uproar in the opposing political party and we shouldn't demand that it does unless we can disassociate the politics of it, given the context of the current Macedonian society. If the goal is to defeat Albanianization and to strengthen the Macedonian society and to promote an protect our culture and identity, there's a better way of going at it.

[vicsinad]

Easy now, that's a bit harsh. Vicsinad is as decent of a person as they come, and very patriotic. I think what Vic means is that time are tense, there is a lot of information and misinformation out there and maybe us jumping on the backs of our countrymen is counterproductive.

Macedonians in ROM can't win. If they come out and protest, then they are DPMNE goons according to NIKO, if they support SDSM then they are traitors according to TM. If they stay silent then they must agree with SDSM anyway.

What we really want from them is obviously to kick both parties to the curb and take down the whole system, but its not in their DNA, they don't know where to start. Macedonia desperately needs enlightened outside agitators to light a fire under their collective ass. This is what I meant when I said they lack morality, some moral fiber that pushes them to stand up for themselves.

Whats funny is both of you despise SDSM and DPMNE but are too caught up in technicalities to realize you both want the same thing.

Thanks gocka.

To be fair, I don't think it is technicalities. I think it is attitude and approach where the difference lies.

[vicsinad]

We have always been on the clock. It's no different now. Every last Macedonian is worthy of our time and efforts if we really want to see Macedonia succeed. After all, the Macedonian cause is about Macedonia and Macedonians. It is as much about human beings that belong to the same genetic and cultural stock as it is about national ideals. We cannot serve one without serving the other.

[vicsinad]

If we are going to make statements that categorize half of Macedonians as essentially traitors, we'd better have evidence. These are destructive and divisive accusations that should be used sparingly and only if they are accurate.

Further, regardless of their accuracy, what is the purpose? How long can we keep up the "you either stand with me or you stand for nothing" or "you're either with me or against me" attitude? Misirkov warned about how this mentality is self-defeating and how categorizing fellow Macedonians as such is counterproductive. So what goal are you trying to achieve by clumping half of Macedonians who aren't taking a desired action as anti-Macedonian? What does it actually accomplish? Is someone becoming enlightened or are we cornering individuals and fracturing our narod?

I have seen people take this attitude for years and it does nothing good. Instead of finding a way to positively service our people and nation it just creates barriers. When the followers of this approach would write off Macedonians the very way you're doing, Delchev and others would go out of their way to positively influence and persuade people, to encourage and motivate them,not to brand them as antiMacedonian simply because they did not reach the same conclusion in the same manner.

The Macedonians are obviously divided on political lines and no movement or party that doesn't simultaneously address the national, social and economic woes facing the Macedonians is going to gain the people's support. This holistic approach is what Vmro utilized in the 1890s and it worked to a certain degree because it recognized that the masses are not unified in needs, wants and abilities. We shouldn't expect the Tirana platform and the manner it was rejected by Dpne to create an uproar in the opposing political party and we shouldn't demand that it does unless we can disassociate the politics of it, given the context of the current Macedonian society. If the goal is to defeat Albanianization and to strengthen the Macedonian society and to promote an protect our culture and identity, there's a better way of going at it.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonians must feel blissfully fortunate to know that they can always rely on other Macedonians to defend their inaction no matter the circumstance. When they allowed the flag to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they allowed the name to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they walk out in the Olympic games under FYROM, Macedonian defenders are there to have their back; when they agreed to the Framework Agreement, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when the allowed SDS and DPNE to implement the Framework agreement over the past 16 years, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; and now when SDS implements the Tirana Platform, and we subsequently debate amongst each other about how and why it all went wrong .....

Well, that pretty much sums up Macedonian non-activism of the 21st century in a nutshell.

[Tomche Makedonche]

I know him well enough to know he is not defending the traitors that openly support the Tirana platform, he is more hung up on the people who may have voted for SDSM to oust what was already a treacherous DPMNE, and are not stuck between a rock and a hard place. These people need to be reached not condemned. These are the people that needs to be swayed to a third option.

Couldn't agree more, I think that's why Vic wanted to be careful about just writing off "half" of Macedonians, because in reality many of them are just as concerned as you, but are chained by their slavish mindset that they have only 2 choices.

SDSM voters aren't the problem in my opinion, I think they can be more easily swayed into a new party, its DPMNE voters you will find hard to wake up.

My criticism is towards those who remain inactive, not those who are knowingly traitors, I wouldn't waste my breath on them.

The fact is we are on a clock here, if there was an unlimited amount of time to pamper each and every Macedonians ass on this issue until they come around to the reality of the situation, I would go with that strategy, but there isn't. I think they've had a reasonable amount of time to consider their options. They can see what is about to happen. They either unite and start to act now, or roll over. Either way, if you are against its implementation, I think defending the inactive at all costs, irrespective of their reasons, no longer helps the achievement of that goal

[Gocka]

I know him well enough to know he is not defending the traitors that openly support the Tirana platform, he is more hung up on the people who may have voted for SDSM to oust what was already a treacherous DPMNE, and are not stuck between a rock and a hard place. These people need to be reached not condemned. These are the people that needs to be swayed to a third option.

I know Vic is a decent person, and I don’t question his patriotism. I also know that his heart may be in the right place, but I think he needs to take into account the consequences of who and what he is defending, irrespective of the why.

Couldn't agree more, I think that's why Vic wanted to be careful about just writing off "half" of Macedonians, because in reality many of them are just as concerned as you, but are chained by their slavish mindset that they have only 2 choices.

They are traitors if they also support DPNE in my view. I’m not asking or expecting anyone to support either party. I am simply imploring Macedonians to look at the reality of what’s in front of them right now and capitalise on the opportunity to unite to fight against its implementation, before it’s too late.

SDSM voters aren't the problem in my opinion, I think they can be more easily swayed into a new party, its DPMNE voters you will find hard to wake up.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Easy now, that's a bit harsh. Vicsinad is as decent of a person as they come, and very patriotic. I think what Vic means is that time are tense, there is a lot of information and misinformation out there and maybe us jumping on the backs of our countrymen is counterproductive.

I know Vic is a decent person, and I don’t question his patriotism. I also know that his heart may be in the right place, but I think he needs to take into account the consequences of who and what he is defending, irrespective of the why.

Macedonians in ROM can't win. If they come out and protest, then they are DPMNE goons according to NIKO, if they support SDSM then they are traitors according to TM. If they stay silent then they must agree with SDSM anyway.

They are traitors if they also support DPNE in my view. I’m not asking or expecting anyone to support either party. I am simply imploring Macedonians to look at the reality of what’s in front of them right now and capitalise on the opportunity to unite to fight against its implementation, before it’s too late. This is an issue that needs to be treated above party politics or allegiances.

What we really want from them is obviously to kick both parties to the curb and take down the whole system, but its not in their DNA, they don't know where to start. Macedonia desperately needs enlightened outside agitators to light a fire under their collective ass. This is what I meant when I said they lack morality, some moral fiber that pushes them to stand up for themselves.

Whats funny is both of you despise SDSM and DPMNE but are too caught up in technicalities to realize you both want the same thing.

The problem actually is Macedonians focusing on the technicalities and prioritising them over the sovereignty of their own country. This has always been one of the major barriers to them uniting for the good of their nation.

[Gocka]

Easy now, that's a bit harsh. Vicsinad is as decent of a person as they come, and very patriotic. I think what Vic means is that time are tense, there is a lot of information and misinformation out there and maybe us jumping on the backs of our countrymen is counterproductive.

Macedonians in ROM can't win. If they come out and protest, then they are DPMNE goons according to NIKO, if they support SDSM then they are traitors according to TM. If they stay silent then they must agree with SDSM anyway.

What we really want from them is obviously to kick both parties to the curb and take down the whole system, but its not in their DNA, they don't know where to start. Macedonia desperately needs enlightened outside agitators to light a fire under their collective ass. This is what I meant when I said they lack morality, some moral fiber that pushes them to stand up for themselves.

Whats funny is both of you despise SDSM and DPMNE but are too caught up in technicalities to realize you both want the same thing.

Yeah sorry Vic, you’re right. I guess in a few month’s time when the Tirana Platform has been implemented, Macedonians can take solace in knowing they were all really against its implementation, just like they all know their country’s name is really Macedonia when they are addressed as FYROM at all formal international occasions.

Macedonians must feel blissfully fortunate to know that they can always rely on other Macedonians to defend their inaction no matter the circumstance. When they allowed the flag to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they allowed the name to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they walk out in the Olympic games under FYROM, Macedonian defenders are there to have their back; when they agreed to the Framework Agreement, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when the allowed SDS and DPNE to implement the Framework agreement over the past 16 years, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; and now when SDS implements the Tirana Platform, and we subsequently debate amongst each other about how and why it all went wrong, at least those Macedonians, who really know their country is Macedonia , can look back at this thread at the time when they actually had a chance to stop it and praise one of their heroes who had their back then, sticking up for them no matter what:

Vicsinad – Defender of the Macedonians, or rather:

Vicsinad - Mbrojtës i Maqedonasve

Sorry Albo I used Google translate for the Albanian, can you let us know if that is the correct way to say it, I assume Vicsinad is going to need to brush up on his Albanian in order to continue his role as Defender of the Macedonians

[Tomche Makedonche]

According to this logic, silence on a topic can either indicate someone's position on the matter or how highly he prioritizes the topic. So if I were to go through this forum and find all topics you have been silent on since joining the forum, it would be fair of me to make an assumption about your stance on those topics or how you prioritize the substance of those topics?

How do you get to this number of "half of Macedonians"? Is it by the number of protesters who show up to vote (which is less than half of who voted for DPNE, so you could say that half of DPNE supporters are silent, which might mean that 3/4 of Macedonians support the Tirana platform)? Or is it by how many people voted for which party (which, if you count all ethnic Macedonian SDS supporters, you likely don't surpass 350,000, which is no where close to half of ethnic Macedonians)?

How do you know half of Macedonians are silent? Whose ears do they have to reach for them to no longer be silent -- the media's? Yours? Mine? What do they have to do or say -- and who do they have to say it to and who do they have to do it in front of -- in order not to be silent?

These are claims you are making about our fellow Macedonians. I think if we're going to make such damning claims, then they better be backed by more than assumptions of silence.

Yeah sorry Vic, you’re right. I guess in a few month’s time when the Tirana Platform has been implemented, Macedonians can take solace in knowing they were all really against its implementation, just like they all know their country’s name is really Macedonia when they are addressed as FYROM at all formal international occasions.

Macedonians must feel blissfully fortunate to know that they can always rely on other Macedonians to defend their inaction no matter the circumstance. When they allowed the flag to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they allowed the name to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they walk out in the Olympic games under FYROM, Macedonian defenders are there to have their back; when they agreed to the Framework Agreement, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when the allowed SDS and DPNE to implement the Framework agreement over the past 16 years, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; and now when SDS implements the Tirana Platform, and we subsequently debate amongst each other about how and why it all went wrong, at least those Macedonians, who really know their country is Macedonia , can look back at this thread at the time when they actually had a chance to stop it and praise one of their heroes who had their back then, sticking up for them no matter what:

Vicsinad – Defender of the Macedonians, or rather:

Vicsinad - Mbrojtës i Maqedonasve

Sorry Albo I used Google translate for the Albanian, can you let us know if that is the correct way to say it, I assume Vicsinad is going to need to brush up on his Albanian in order to continue his role as Defender of the Macedonians

[Gocka]

You took the words out of my mouth. To play devils advocate, I think TM is referring to the fact that SDSM got roughly half the vote, even if we take that, a good chunk of SDSM voters were Albanian.

Just through observation, I think TM isn't too far off base. Hardcore SDSM voters, similar to hardcore Trump voters, will back their guy to hell and back, no matter what he does. Then you have the economic SDSM voters who prioritze Europe and the Economy over ethnic issues. That leaves you with the change voters, they seem to also favor SDSM despite the platform and they legitimize this position in a similar way that NIKO does, that DPMNE also accepts this platform, so I'd rather get change out of the deal. Maybe 100% of SDSM voters are not okay with Tirana platform, but I wouldn't doubt if 65-75% are okay with it. This still doesn't constitute half of Macedonians but I get where he's coming from.

This is an opportune moment for a third option to arise purely on opposition to the Tirana platform. SDSM voters want change and may favor a third party as long as its not DPMNE. Then the hard part is convincing brainwashed DPMNE voters that they have been more pro Albanian than anyone.

According to this logic, silence on a topic can either indicate someone's position on the matter or how highly he prioritizes the topic. So if I were to go through this forum and find all topics you have been silent on since joining the forum, it would be fair of me to make an assumption about your stance on those topics or how you prioritize the substance of those topics?

How do you get to this number of "half of Macedonians"? Is it by the number of protesters who show up to vote (which is less than half of who voted for DPNE, so you could say that half of DPNE supporters are silent, which might mean that 3/4 of Macedonians support the Tirana platform)? Or is it by how many people voted for which party (which, if you count all ethnic Macedonian SDS supporters, you likely don't surpass 350,000, which is no where close to half of ethnic Macedonians)?

How do you know half of Macedonians are silent? Whose ears do they have to reach for them to no longer be silent -- the media's? Yours? Mine? What do they have to do or say -- and who do they have to say it to and who do they have to do it in front of -- in order not to be silent?

These are claims you are making about our fellow Macedonians. I think if we're going to make such damning claims, then they better be backed by more than assumptions of silence.

[vicsinad]

Well if they don't oppose it, I can only assume they support it, or prioritise other matters above the implementation of the Tirana platform. As for my objective evidence, it is their silence.

According to this logic, silence on a topic can either indicate someone's position on the matter or how highly he prioritizes the topic. So if I were to go through this forum and find all topics you have been silent on since joining the forum, it would be fair of me to make an assumption about your stance on those topics or how you prioritize the substance of those topics?

How do you get to this number of "half of Macedonians"? Is it by the number of protesters who show up to vote (which is less than half of who voted for DPNE, so you could say that half of DPNE supporters are silent, which might mean that 3/4 of Macedonians support the Tirana platform)? Or is it by how many people voted for which party (which, if you count all ethnic Macedonian SDS supporters, you likely don't surpass 350,000, which is no where close to half of ethnic Macedonians)?

How do you know half of Macedonians are silent? Whose ears do they have to reach for them to no longer be silent -- the media's? Yours? Mine? What do they have to do or say -- and who do they have to say it to and who do they have to do it in front of -- in order not to be silent?

These are claims you are making about our fellow Macedonians. I think if we're going to make such damning claims, then they better be backed by more than assumptions of silence.