Macedonia and the European Union

[Rogi]

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

Very interesting Albo. How much of the population? 20%, 25%, 30%, 50%?
But more importantly, what are those wants and needs? What do you, personally, view as the existential purpose of Macedonia? Then tell me what you, personally, view as the existential purpose of Albania?

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Macedonians would lose the homeland of Macedonians and become citizens of a state as opposed to citizens of a Macedonian nation-state.

Tell me Albo, what do Albanians in Macedonia gain and how does their quality of life improve by making Albanian the official language in Macedonia across all of Macedonia even where there are no Albanians - given it is already the primary language in areas where Albanians are the majority (and in many cases the Macedonian language has been wiped out from road-signs, official websites, etc), or changing the national anthem, or changing the flag, or the name of the country, or modifying its' currency?

What will they really gain, over and above what the Albanians in Macedonia have Today where there is Albanian, officially in any area with more than 20% Albanian population with Albanian schools, universities, media, cultural groups, Albanians forming Government, Albanians in the police force and military, with Albanian Ministers, Albanian-owned businesses and opportunities equal to (and in some cases, due to the 'positive discrimination' laws of 2001 which disregard merit, where Albanians must be hired before Macedonians to ensure a quota is met) Macedonians?
And what do the Macedonians gain with all of that?

[Risto the Great]

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

You're saying the majority should dictate the terms. Bravo!

By granting Albanians wider use of Albanian and by greater decentralization (EU Laws) ( Which is basically what the "Joint Albanian party decleration" is) .. nobody is taking away from Macedonians the right to live exactly as they have been as Macedonians in any shape or form..

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Multi language use at all levels of government is common in many European and Balkan countries ..
It's not something that needs to be feared ..
Europe is based on cultural, linguistic and religious diversity..

I seriously don't understand the hysteria and fear that has been generated amongst the population.. It's totally unnecessary in my and every other Albanians eyes, not to mention the European officials who don't understand the fear and revolt against 25%-35% Of the population using their language at a wider official level..

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Why the fear??

Macedonians are losing the homeland of Macedonians. Albanians have a homeland that helps forge and affirm their identity in countries outside of Albania. Macedonia and Macedonians will not have this. All because of a very vocal minority that is useful to external powers.

Why the fear?

Lose Albania and then tell me what you are Albo.

[Redsun]

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

By granting Albanians wider use of Albanian and by greater decentralization (EU Laws) ( Which is basically what the "Joint Albanian party decleration" is) .. nobody is taking away from Macedonians the right to live exactly as they have been as Macedonians in any shape or form..

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Multi language use at all levels of government is common in many European and Balkan countries ..
It's not something that needs to be feared ..
Europe is based on cultural, linguistic and religious diversity..

I seriously don't understand the hysteria and fear that has been generated amongst the population.. It's totally unnecessary in my and every other Albanians eyes, not to mention the European officials who don't understand the fear and revolt against 25%-35% Of the population using their language at a wider official level..

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Why the fear??

Europe is divided upon cultural, linguistic and religious differences.


You question "what do Macedonians lose", tell me "what do Macedonians gain"?

How will multi language within the government be of benefit to Macedonia? Why do you believe multi language in government is necessary? What is so necessary about it?

How will this be of advantage to the government and the nation.

Explain to me why you don't believe this will be an inconvenience because I cant see how it can be of any convenience, please explain.

It is totally unnecessary, what benefit will be gained by having a second language in government.

[Karposh]

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Well that's very kind of the EU and the Albanians.

[Albo]

the fundamental principles which define the nation and its' existential purpose

The existential purpose needs to be a reflection of the wants and needs of the population!

By granting Albanians wider use of Albanian and by greater decentralization (EU Laws) ( Which is basically what the "Joint Albanian party decleration" is) .. nobody is taking away from Macedonians the right to live exactly as they have been as Macedonians in any shape or form..

Even if the constitution is changed in the future and Albanian and Macedonian are officially equal at all levels.. what do Macedonians lose or how is their quality of life effected in any way...

Multi language use at all levels of government is common in many European and Balkan countries ..
It's not something that needs to be feared ..
Europe is based on cultural, linguistic and religious diversity..

I seriously don't understand the hysteria and fear that has been generated amongst the population.. It's totally unnecessary in my and every other Albanians eyes, not to mention the European officials who don't understand the fear and revolt against 25%-35% Of the population using their language at a wider official level..

Nobody is saying for Macedonians to replace Macedonian with Albanian or forcefully learn Albanian..

Why the fear??

[Rogi]

Albo, you are only referring to the mechanics by which constitutional changes can eventually happen. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm referring to the fundamental principles which define the nation and its' existential purpose and in this regard, the conversation in Macedonia Today, most certainly is a discussion on constitutional changes.

[Albo]

There are major constitutional changes which chart a very different course for the nation and question its' existential purpose, being agreed to in a post-election situation not part of the election campaigns.

There are no constitutional changes that can be discussed or changed .. 2/3 of a majority are needed to change the constitution... neither party or coalition has that ability.. anyone who says that the constitution is at risk.. is simply boasting vmro propaganda!

[Gocka]

Its not defeatist its the truth and its dangerous to assume otherwise. What has Macedonia done since 2001? Incorporate large numbers of Albanians into the army? Put a former terrorist as the defense minister? I have friends in ARM, their training is laughable at best, their discipline is even worse. Private Macedonian citizens are usually unarmed and have almost not firearms experience, go to an Albanian village and half of them have AK47's in the basement. Also if there is ever a conflict, there will be a lot of pressure from the west to back down, do you trust our current leaders to stay the course, because I don't. If you don't plan on fighting to the bitter end then you might as well not fight at all, because you will lose.

I also think its very cute that you think we've had a country for 25 years, by my math we had a country for about a year or two at best. Its all about mentality my friend, we have man power and weapons but that amounts to nothing if the other side wants to win more than you do.

Gocka, that is an alarmingly defeatist attitude. We’ve had 16 years to prepare for a repeat of 2001. Surely that’s enough time to get our shit together.

Since everyone is invoking the name of Delchev, when Delchev ran around like a man possessed trying to secretly procure as many guns as he possibly could, his compatriots were still reliant on wooden canons and home made guns such as the “Tetovki” and “Debranki”. It wasn’t until late 1896 that several thousand, very old, Bulgarian-made, “Krimki” rifles found their way into Macedonia, and only as a result of the Bulgarian army having undergone a recent process of modernisation and upgrading of its inventory with Austrian-made Mannlicher rifles. Thanks to the Bulgarians’ offloading of some of their rusty old guns, which were supplied with no bullets (deemed too much of a risk to the Bulgarian government of the time), Macedonians were encouraged to put up some sort of fight against the Turks.

We’ve now had our own country for over a quarter of a century, for fuck’s sake. How much more time do we need to be ready to defend ourselves – another 25 years, 50 years, 100?

[Risto the Great]

It's not our own country. That's the fundamental issue. I would say Macedonia is far less ready for internal conflict now as compared to 2001.

[Karposh]

If there is an open conflict with Albanians I guarantee you that we are not ready for that, and much like 2001 we will roll over and give them more then they wanted in the first place.

Gocka, that is an alarmingly defeatist attitude. We’ve had 16 years to prepare for a repeat of 2001. Surely that’s enough time to get our shit together.

Since everyone is invoking the name of Delchev, when Delchev ran around like a man possessed trying to secretly procure as many guns as he possibly could, his compatriots were still reliant on wooden canons and home made guns such as the “Tetovki” and “Debranki”. It wasn’t until late 1896 that several thousand, very old, Bulgarian-made, “Krimki” rifles found their way into Macedonia, and only as a result of the Bulgarian army having undergone a recent process of modernisation and upgrading of its inventory with Austrian-made Mannlicher rifles. Thanks to the Bulgarians’ offloading of some of their rusty old guns, which were supplied with no bullets (deemed too much of a risk to the Bulgarian government of the time), Macedonians were encouraged to put up some sort of fight against the Turks.

We’ve now had our own country for over a quarter of a century, for fuck’s sake. How much more time do we need to be ready to defend ourselves – another 25 years, 50 years, 100?

[Rogi]

President Ivanov is a disease to democracy in Macedonia.

Such a vile approach to push an agenda.


It's amazing that the argument pushed forward is one about transferring of power, yet it is all about the political parties involved and nothing about the people.

If transference of power is what is desired, perhaps then the conversation should instead be about transferring that power back to the people. There are major constitutional changes which chart a very different course for the nation and question its' existential purpose, being agreed to in a post-election situation not part of the election campaigns. Proceeding and arguing purely for 'transfer of power', is effectively duping the citizens.

If the basic principles of democracy are being disrupted, as suggested by the author, then perhaps instead of focusing on power to the political parties, focus on giving the power to the people by letting them decide the course of their nation in new elections.

[Risto the Great]

I have no doubt that every Macedonian contributing thoughtfully to this thread is a good Macedonian with excellent intentions. When I start agreeing with everybody's thoughts, I begin to realise the enemy is us Macedonians, as always. Nothing is simple, but it needs to be in this current predicament.

I predict more suffering for Macedonians.

[vicsinad]

Here is the political approach taken by DPNE:

http://www.independent.mk/articles/42696/Day+Five+Macedonian+Parliament+Debate+Remains+Focused+on+Tirana+Platform

VMRO-DPMNE representatives say that ethnic Macedonians who voted for SDSM at the December elections were duped because the platform was made public only after the vote, and the voters had no way of knowing that SDSM would accept changes to the political system of such magnitude after the elections.

Polls have shown that SDSM voters, who are mainly ethnic Macedonian, strongly disapprove of the platform, just as ethnic Macedonian VMRO-DPMNE voters, and VMRO-DPMNE insists on repeating the elections, asking that if SDSM is prepared to implement the Tirana platform, their own voters should first accept or reject it at the polls.

Only a few of the 50 members of Parliament who asked to speak at the session were able to complete their remarks in the first four and a half days, due to the constant demands for response and replies between members of the same or different political parties.

This just shows me a few things I assumed already: Most Macedonians, even those who support SDS, don't support the Tirana platform; DPNE is simply using the platform and protests to gain votes at another election; and SDS doesn't want to risk going to the polls so that both the DUI and DPNE don't get more votes and don't get back in power.

The Tirana Platform cannot be used a unifying cry. Instead, it is being used -- and will continued to be used -- to drum up more support for DPNE.

[vicsinad]

To pick up on a few specific points:

Vic,

...don’t go using examples like Delchev or any of our other revered revolutionaries in your attempt to try and pedal that line of holier than thou bullshit with me.

I'll bring up whoever I want to bring up in order to peddle whatever I want to peddle. But if you give me a bike, then I'll pedal that, too.

Irrespective of the above, I now know that you think that being a Diaspora member means I have no right to an opinion on what happens, or should happen in RoM, that ideally I need to just shut the fuck up and leave RoMacedonians to their own devices. I’ve heard this argument many times before, I mean who am I to get involved, Im just a stranec after all, I should focus on my life in Australia and butt out of anything else. Well do you know what?, after years of hearing this shit, and now hypocritically from you, being another Diaspora member, I think you may have just convinced me.

So you can't have this discussion without taking it super personally, huh? You're completely misinterpreting what was said, as addressed in Gocka's post and my previous post. I simply contested how you're coming to a conclusion and then suggested that living afar leaves us removed from the effects or consequences of what goes on there and that there are some things we say and advocate for, and how we say them and advocate for them, that should require special consideration, being that we are not there. You don't have to agree with it, but don't take it too personally.

Either way, the absence of any real or vocal opposition from SDS, whether based on reasonable and justifiable principles (i.e. the fact that DPNE would likely implement the Tirana platform as well) still constitutes indirect support of the Tirana platform, since it does nothing to prevent its implementation.

I know you consider this to be an unfair assessment because I’m equating matters into absolutes, which is something you are not fond of (which I assume is probably because you philosophically believe absolutes don’t exist). But defending the inaction because it doesn’t feel fair to do so only serves to dismiss accountability for the consequences of that inaction, and furthermore promotes Macedonians vindicating themselves for prioritising their stubbornness, hate, and political principles over their unification for something which should transcend such matters.

It's an unfair and an inaccurate assessment. It has absolutely nothing to do with absolutes (I philosophically believe absolute morality doesn't exist, which is something different). And quite the contrary, attacking Macedonians because of a categorization that is unfair and inaccurate is what promotes political principles, stubbornness and hate over a solution; further, attacking their supposed inaction based on the standard you have set ignores a multitude of complexities and is unproductive.

Now the burden to rise above party allegiances and politics will always fall to the supporters of the party that is working to the detriment of the Macedonia people, which in respect of the Tirana platform happens to currently be SDS.

The burden falls on both parties and supporters because the issue really is not the Tirana Platform but Albanianization in general. The DPNE has had years -- years -- to do something about it. In respect to Albanization in all it forms, both parties can be said to be working toward the detriment of the Macedonian people, and thus the burden falls on both parties.

Again all I can say is that this may be the last opportunity for a platform Macedonians may have to stand up against the Albanisation of their country. The choice is theirs, and accordingly, responsibility for the outcome will be on their shoulders.

Saying that this could be the last opportunity could be right, or it could be wrong. Perhaps the last opportunity may have already passed, or maybe it's light years away. But if it is the last opportunity for Macedonians to stand up against Albanization, I find it even more peculiar that you would be so quick to judge half of Macedonians as being supportive of the Tirana Platform, and be vocally adamant about it, when in reality it is painfully obvious that the politics of the situation regarding the Tirana Platform will prevent Macedonians unifying under this guise. Something else is needed, something that counters both Albanianization as well as the social ills that plague government and society, and something that is just as directed at the Macedonian parties' leaders as it is against Albania and ethnic Albanians in Macedonia.

I understand your logic and your points, for the most part. But I don't understand how you think this is the only way to go about trying to address the situation, and I certainly don't understand how you think this could produce results in even a short time, given the entire political context. You want the Macedonians to drop the political context behind it all for the time being, but that's a virtual impossibility because the political context exists. You have to account for that in any solution, because in the current state of things, that is not changing. It's there and it must be factored.

[vicsinad]

I liked the long and thoughtful comment and I think you are right about most of it. I guess the discussion is really about the level of urgency rather than the state of affairs or even desired outcomes.

I will just point out one thing. We have brought up Delcev a lot and I again have to just one more time. If you go back to his time, especially while there was intense debate about whether Macedonians should start the rebellion or not. Now we all know it was a mistake that they rebelled when they did, but what is relevant today is why they rebelled when they did. Now there was certainly a devious element of Bulgarians who knew it would fail and they wanted them to fail, but there was also a naive Macedonian faction that also felt a sense of urgency as you do today. They believed it was either right now or Macedonia would never break free from the Turks. We know that the premature rebellion was crushed and Macedonia's chances at being a free went with it. We are still paying the price today for rushing into the rebellion. That defeat set us back much further than our neighbors who capitalized on that and partitioned us. It also kept us from forming a strong nationality because we had no nation to build it upon. That one mistake nearly erased us from history.

I know you feel urgency, so do I, you've seen some of the comments I've made about ROM and its citizens, I've never pulled any punches. That's pure emotion, that's because we do care even if we want to tell ourselves that we don't. If we put our emotions aside though, and really look at the situation critically and logically, I think you will also conclude that rushing is again a mistake.

Let me explain why. Lets say Macedonians unite superficially just to fend of the Tirana platform, what then, the way I see it only one of two things will happen. Either the Albanians pick up their guns again because they are dug in too deep and too publicly now to turn back or it crushes SDS's mandate and we head back to elections which DPMNE will win. If there is an open conflict with Albanians I guarantee you that we are not ready for that, and much like 2001 we will roll over and give them more then they wanted in the first place. If DPMNE win another election in these circumstances and with the current leadership they will only further dig in their tentacles and then what? DPMNE has caused more harm than anyone to Macedonia, they are the one who brought on the divisiveness and the Albanization. If they come to power it will tear Macedonia apart anyway.

I will also use an analogy but a simple one, you are focusing on the symptoms not the disease. All the idiotic things Macedonians do and allow to happen, are not the problem, they are the symptoms. The disease in their heads and hearts. They need to want it, they need to be willing to die for it. We are in 6th gear, they are in neutral. Any actions they undertake under this mental state, will only cause more harm. You want them to take actions without them fully understanding why they should take them or what they want the outcome to be, and why they should desire a certain outcome. No nation can survive by proxy.

Having said all that I want to address your comment below. I think you misunderstood us. Its not that you should butt out and shut up. Not even the slightest. We should help, we should support, but certain demands and suggestions should be avoided unless you are willing to go and lead the charge. Come on we are all grown ups, how many of us knowing many of the ego's around here, how many of us would tolerate someone thousands of miles away in comfort and safety telling us we need to die for a cause we don't understand? Sometimes you have to step back and try to empathize. Also Delcev called Macedonians sheep in private conversations, he didn't go village to village and while trying to enlighten and recruit, call people sheep. He was speaking to people who were already enlightened, expressing frustration and being realistic about what was the current state of affairs.

You shouldn't give up but rather ask yourself, would you put your faith in the words of some Kangaroo or Yankee, making anonymous comments and a vague internet forum?

I share most of those sentiments. Our egos are large, as is the amount of luxury time we have to be intellectuals about all of this.