Macedonia and NATO

[Risto the Great]

Howz about you put the name and avatar back to its original form and, through your sense of professionalism, attack the points and not the man, and in return, I'll stop relying to those provocations from other posters (for a while - like an amnesty) in anything less than a professional manner while they get up to speed in showing their professionalism.

I did not select your avatar. But wholly support your right to have a new symbol that will (in time) represent you. You need to understand the parallels of your forum saga with that of Macedonia. Just for the record:

Macedonia was forced to change its name for entry into international organisations.
OziMak was forced to change his name for continued participation with Macedonian Truth Organisation.

Macedonia was forced to give the symbols it held dear to itself.
OziMak/fyrOM was denied his symbol.

Anything less than an outright DEMAND for restitution of all that has been taken away would be another failure on Macedonia's part.
Anything less than an outright DEMAND for restitution of all that has been taken away would be another failure on OziMak's/fyrOM's part.

Anyone who is sympathetic with the machinations that created "FYROM" and the Interim Agreement deserves to be treated as you are being treated right now.

If it was my choice for your avatar, it would simply have been a Greek flag. You are doing their bidding.

[George S.]

fyrom would you prefer bozo the clown like a ventilator or do you want the greek flag .your lucky your getting choice in the matter.Maybe you want the greek flag because they are your buddies right.Fyrom after all is said & done you haven't budged an inch & said how wrong you are or whether you are willing to change,you are just set in your ways.

[Vangelovski]

fyrOM,

I selected the avatar. You are both a clown and a bozo. And I thought the Yugoslav colours for the ventilator were quite fitting.

So long as you argue against Macedonians exercising their natural rights, you'll be treated exactly that way - a slave.

[Phoenix]

You wouldn't be one of these people that has a phobia about clowns? Some say the phobia stems from aliens' implanting the image of a clown in a persons thoughts to disguise their appearance when abducting someone, in the belief that clowns are a happy thought for humans, and so will pacify them during their probing.

I reckon the clown avatar for fyrOM is grossly inappropriate, it's a downright insult to the millions of genuine, hard working clowns out there in circuses and other workplaces around the world.

Something simpler and more to the point, like -

fyrOM - Fuckin' Idiot would be far more appropriate.

[fyrOM]

I did not select your avatar. But wholly support your right to have a new symbol that will (in time) represent you. You need to understand the parallels of your forum saga with that of Macedonia. Just for the record:

Macedonia was forced to change its name for entry into international organisations.
OziMak was forced to change his name for continued participation with Macedonian Truth Organisation.

Macedonia was forced to give the symbols it held dear to itself.
OziMak/fyrOM was denied his symbol.

Anything less than an outright DEMAND for restitution of all that has been taken away would be another failure on Macedonia's part.
Anything less than an outright DEMAND for restitution of all that has been taken away would be another failure on OziMak's/fyrOM's part.

I'm glad you brought up the parallels between the plight of Macedonia and Ozimak as both have been treated poorly - but I think you missed few parallels.

1. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were name called and attacked for speaking the truth as they saw it.

2. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were attacked further when they showed-up the deficiencies in their detractors position.

3. Both Macedonian and OziMak both face continued negative action/sanctions/limitation to force them to 'see reason' and change their name/way of thinking.

4. Both Macedonia and Ozimak are at the mercy/face difficulties at the hands of their detractors because of the pre-existing mechanisms in place - re unanimous voting requirements/Veto - / - mods being who they are pre OziMak - who are more than happy to exploit their advantage regardless of merit.

5. Both Macedonia and OziMak, not being in a position of power and finding simply demanding anything results in a flat NO, are left to their wits and talents to win/survive.

6. Both Macedonia and OziMak have to wait until the results of certain events voting/ICJ case results/greater swell of supporters to have the numbers take there case to a vote at the UN to regain the recognition of their name/symbols.

If it was my choice for your avatar, it would simply have been a Greek flag. You are doing their bidding.

With so many parallels between Macedonia and OziMak, I hope the consequent parallels by each of their detractors is not lost on you!

Oh!!!..and one more!

Both need a face saver, hence my offer to respond nothing less than professionally to all provocateurs for an extended time to allow them time to adjust from thinking 'this site is not work so it's ok to treat it as their personal play pen' to 'although it's not work it deserves the appropriate behavior to which one could feel proud to say to an out-sider, "this is how Macedonians behave", as we have all been guilty of doing this to varying degrees.

[fyrOM]

fyrOM,

I selected the avatar. You are both a clown and a bozo. And I thought the Yugoslav colours for the ventilator were quite fitting.

So long as you argue against Macedonians exercising their natural rights, you'll be treated exactly that way - a slave.

Seeing I am neither very religious, nor is my name Bozin, or anything like that, Bozo doesn't seem right.

At least it's colorful.

Although, seeing I have always spoken against Yugoslavia, I don't understand the reference, other than the red, white and blue were the colors of the Yugoslav flag and even though the 'ventlator' has different colors, I guess you mean the radiant shape on both.

[fyrOM]

fyrom would you prefer bozo the clown like a ventilator or do you want the greek flag .your lucky your getting choice in the matter.Maybe you want the greek flag because they are your buddies right.Fyrom after all is said & done you haven't budged an inch & said how wrong you are or whether you are willing to change,you are just set in your ways.

See parallels points 1 and 2 and particular 3.

1. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were name called and attacked for speaking the truth as they saw it.

2. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were attacked further when they showed-up the deficiencies in their detractors position.

3. Both Macedonian and OziMak both face continued negative action/sanctions/limitation to force them to 'see reason' and change their name/way of thinking.

[Risto the Great]

1. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were name called and attacked for speaking the truth as they saw it.

Macedonia never spoke up. It complied almost immediately. fyrOM simply supported the position where sovereignty is of no significance.

2. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were attacked further when they showed-up the deficiencies in their detractors position.

Macedonia was not attacked any further. It already lost when it capitulated. fyrOM is yet to show up any deficiencies in relation to arguing for sovereignty whatsoever.

3. Both Macedonian and OziMak both face continued negative action/sanctions/limitation to force them to 'see reason' and change their name/way of thinking.

fyrOM insist Macedonia should accept FYROM so it does not suffer any further negative action/sanctions/limitation. fyrOM is anti-Macedonian but pro-FYROM.

4. Both Macedonia and Ozimak are at the mercy/face difficulties at the hands of their detractors because of the pre-existing mechanisms in place - re unanimous voting requirements/Veto - / - mods being who they are pre OziMak - who are more than happy to exploit their advantage regardless of merit.

fyrOM has no knowledge whatsoever of what advantages there are in joining the MTO. Yet still persists in requesting a seat at the table no matter what rubbish is thrown at him.

5. Both Macedonia and OziMak, not being in a position of power and finding simply demanding anything results in a flat NO, are left to their wits and talents to win/survive.

fyrOM can start a UMD forum. He can look for new friends who respect him for what he isn't.

6. Both Macedonia and OziMak have to wait until the results of certain events voting/ICJ case results/greater swell of supporters to have the numbers take there case to a vote at the UN to regain the recognition of their name/symbols.

fyrOM is waiting for a court ruling about Macedonia wanting to be called FYROM. FYROM has destroyed its symbols and let them go in an instant moment of insanity. It has continued with that insanity through successive governments over the last 16 years.

Both need a face saver, hence my offer to respond nothing less than professionally to all provocateurs for an extended time to allow them time to adjust from thinking 'this site is not work so it's ok to treat it as their personal play pen' to 'although it's not work it deserves the appropriate behavior to which one could feel proud to say to an out-sider, "this is how Macedonians behave", as we have all been guilty of doing this to varying degrees.

fyrOM can save face by saying Macedonia deserves to be called Macedonia. And if all Macedonians decided enough was enough, this foolery would be over in an instant. But instead fyrOM chooses to fuel the fire of self-doubt and quells the potential for our people to claim what is rightfully theirs. fyrOM represents all that is bad for the Macedonian people. He believes we do not deserve to be treated equal because everyone is seemingly out to get Macedonians. The simple reality is that fyrOM is scared of what it means to be free.

fyrOM ..... Why do you stay in prison when the door is wide open?

[Vangelovski]

Bozo,

Its perverted views like these that have earned you the name fyrOM and a Bozo the Clown avatar.

1. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were name called and attacked for speaking the truth as they saw it.

Aruging that Macedonians do not have natural rights is a perversion regardless of whether you believe it to be true or not.

2. Both Macedonia and Ozimak were attacked further when they showed-up the deficiencies in their detractors position.

You have not showed any deficiencies other then your intellectual shortcomings.

3. Both Macedonian and OziMak both face continued negative action/sanctions/limitation to force them to 'see reason' and change their name/way of thinking.

If you can't handle the "pressure", let someone else deal with it that can.

4. Both Macedonia and Ozimak are at the mercy/face difficulties at the hands of their detractors because of the pre-existing mechanisms in place - re unanimous voting requirements/Veto - / - mods being who they are pre OziMak - who are more than happy to exploit their advantage regardless of merit.

Macedonia does not need NATO and you do not need to be on the MTO. The sun will still rise and set.

5. Both Macedonia and OziMak, not being in a position of power and finding simply demanding anything results in a flat NO, are left to their wits and talents to win/survive.

Neither you nor Macedonia have demanded anything. Rather, both have taken on a submissive position agreeing to go along with their "detractors".

6. Both Macedonia and OziMak have to wait until the results of certain events voting/ICJ case results/greater swell of supporters to have the numbers take there case to a vote at the UN to regain the recognition of their name/symbols.

Neither need to wait for anything. They only need to genuinely assert themselves rather than argue they do not have any natural rights.

[fyrOM]

Macedonia never spoke up. It complied almost immediately. fyrOM simply supported the position where sovereignty is of no significance.

After leaving Yugoslavia Macedonia DID speak up - remember the first constitution and the first flag - the name is Macedonia and the Macedonian Sun Flag was her symbol. It is precisely the fact that Macedonia spoke up that started the whole attack against her - kind of like OziMak, spoke his mind and got canned.

Macedonia was not attacked any further. It already lost when it capitulated. fyrOM is yet to show up any deficiencies in relation to arguing for sovereignty whatsoever.

When Macedonians started showing-up the false Greekness and recent importation of the people in Greece claiming to be Macedonians and Greeks, Greece went on a heavy propaganda war on-line/lobbying/bribery and were caught out. In fact Greece got (read bribed) a bunch of historians to all sign a letter to President Obama that they support Greece and the USA's recognition of Macedonia by former President G W Bush was wrong and should be overturned.

So no - it was not All lost from the onset, and Greece's propaganda war has been heating up as more countries choose to recognise Macedonia ie the more the truth comes out (ie the detractors are shown for what the are/deficiencies) and the pressure has been heaped on with the veto at other time but more so in 2008. Kind of like applying increase verbal pressure on OziMak as thing went along, followed by mental pressure of forcibly changing his name, and more recently his avatar.

fyrOM insist Macedonia should accept FYROM so it does not suffer any further negative action/sanctions/limitation. fyrOM is anti-Macedonian but pro-FYROM.

If a bully calls you a name, and you are Not in a position to do anything about it right then and you walk on, does Not mean you accept it nor that you are not/cannot prepare a response to the bully.

Taking Greece to the ICJ to be let in the EU and NATO as FYROM does Not mean Macedonia has accepted the name FYROM but a realisation that it is easier to solve some problems from inside the EU and NATO than from outside and if it means tolerating being called FYROM for the time being to be able to get in, so be it. It is only the too proud who would say/demand entry as Macedonia or nothing and accept nothing just to hold their position of undignified outrage.

fyrOM has no knowledge whatsoever of what advantages there are in joining the MTO. Yet still persists in requesting a seat at the table no matter what rubbish is thrown at him.

Likewise, as previously stated elsewhere, sites like this, particularly with a name like MTO attract people, both Macedonian and non-Macedonia, - it's how I found you - and can influence their thinking, and they intern can influence the opinions of many more who may not have seen the site, so there is value in sites like this. If I can put forward an alternate view to people to support the only 'real' government Macedonia has had since the 1903 uprising in guiding Macedonia through the minefield that confronts her then tolerating being called fyrOM and worse is an extremely small price to pay.

It is Not my fault if those detractors show up their own Tomfoolery by resorting to silly pressure tactics and childish pictures of clowns - the potential value of being on the site is far greater than to allow such tiny measures to tickle my sensibilities.

So, yeah - OziMak knows exactly why he is on this site.

fyrOM can start a UMD forum. He can look for new friends who respect him for what he isn't.

UMD - such a cool name for an organisation - are flip-flops and appear to be in it more for the money and junkets than standing on principle - pity really, because they have media connections and could have been a useful tool instead of just being tools, so joining them is not an option.

Also, I don't have the time to run my own site, so again this is not an option, but even if I could, being an alternative beacon attracting readers only allows one to editorialise/project one's views without inter-reacting directly with opposing views - unless you cite them, and then it begs the question why not just go on their site and inter-react with them?

fyrOM is waiting for a court ruling about Macedonia wanting to be called FYROM. FYROM has destroyed its symbols and let them go in an instant moment of insanity. It has continued with that insanity through successive governments over the last 16 years.

The attacks against OziMak have been of such poor quality that they actually have the reverse effect and are an embarrassment to their makers. The lack of for-thought put into formatting those attacks so that the attacked cannot/or at least minimise the oportunity for reversal against you tells everyone the forethought to engage brain before opening mouth is not this sites forte (not to say it does not have its own things it excels at), and further, adults resorting to childish actions does note bode well for the site, nor Macedonians in general, either.

fyrOM can save face by saying Macedonia deserves to be called Macedonia. And if all Macedonians decided enough was enough, this foolery would be over in an instant. But instead fyrOM chooses to fuel the fire of self-doubt and quells the potential for our people to claim what is rightfully theirs. fyrOM represents all that is bad for the Macedonian people. He believes we do not deserve to be treated equal because everyone is seemingly out to get Macedonians. The simple reality is that fyrOM is scared of what it means to be free.

OziMak/fyrOM has always said Macedonia should be called Macedonia. The 'how to get there and the pit-falls that await' is where we differ and could have been rationally discussed as this is a vital point concerning Macedonia and Macedonians today.

From news poles, one can say some Macedonians get it, but as long as a sizable portion of Macedonians are in the dark with no solid opinion of how to realise their desire for Macedonia to be called Macedonia, then they will turn to any and all sources they can find for information, but more importantly insight - without a doubt the MTO is/will be one of those sources.

[Risto the Great]

After leaving Yugoslavia Macedonia DID speak up - remember the first constitution and the first flag - the name is Macedonia and the Macedonian Sun Flag was her symbol. It is precisely the fact that Macedonia spoke up that started the whole attack against her - kind of like OziMak, spoke his mind and got canned.

If it didn't, it would not be a country you clown. Are you all there or what? Thank you for your continued posts. I love it when clowns attempt to justify their spasticated thought processes.

If a bully calls you a name, and you are Not in a position to do anything about it right then and you walk on, does Not mean you accept it nor that you are not/cannot prepare a response to the bully.

But if you sign an agreement that forces you to accept the bully's terms, then you are a clown.

Seriously, why keep embarrassing yourself?

I will just repeat myself, because you are a spineless anti-Macedonian:

if all Macedonians decided enough was enough, this foolery would be over in an instant. But instead fyrOM chooses to fuel the fire of self-doubt and quells the potential for our people to claim what is rightfully theirs. fyrOM represents all that is bad for the Macedonian people. He believes we do not deserve to be treated equal because everyone is seemingly out to get Macedonians. The simple reality is that fyrOM is scared of what it means to be free.

[julie]

fyrom, your logic astounds me
Under your logic, Macedonia must enter the EU and NATO and be known as fyrom, so they can then fight to change their name to Macedonia?
And you wonder why everyone on the forum has had enough

[George S.]

Fyrom you recommend that macedonia should join nato under the fyrom name.We don't approve of that.We don't want macedonia to change her name macedonia just to satsfy someone else.Why let some politician tinker with our identity.How stupid & silly it is when you favour a name change just so that you can get into nato or the eu.That's is exactly what the greeks want you to do to capitulate & compromise your name.Here they are destroying us & you seem to agree with them by saying i suppose the politicians will sort it all out.What a joke you're a bloody bozo for thinking it's ok when it's not.Also your a clown to boot for thinking that once were in nato or the eu we can just change our name from fyrom to macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

fyrOM,

You are either completely uninformed or a deceitful anti-Macedonian rat. The false gargabe you continue post and use as the basis for you idiotic theories is either sheer stupidity or just plain old UDBa-style propaganda (that's probably where the idea that you work for the Macedonian Government came from - your rabid pro-vassal views).

Your anti-Macedonianism will not be tolerated here much longer.

[fyrOM]

Bozo,

I keep telling you I am Not that religious.

Its perverted views like these that have earned you the name fyrOM and a Bozo the Clown avatar.

There is nothing perverted about offering alternate view - which have to-date not been convincingly defeated, mind you. A perversion is to debase a thing/act/idea. At no time have I advocated a change in Macedonia's name, with or without any financial gain. To suggest tolerating FYROM temporally to get into the EU and NATO cannot be take to mean accepting a permanent change - which would be a perversion.

Aruging that Macedonians do not have natural rights is a perversion regardless of whether you believe it to be true or not.

Saying whether one has rights or not does not mean you automatically get them, and repeating/chanting like a mad monk in a corner, wont necessarily mean people will take pity on you a return what's been stolen from you. A plan needs to be formulated with this action, then that action, then the next ect. ie considering "what next" which is something that has been avoided on this site like the devil from incense. Let's hear "this step" followed by every consequential "what next" logically argued.

You have not showed any deficiencies other then your intellectual shortcomings.

The deficiencies in the detractors (both Macedonia's and OziMaks) are too many to mention here - re-read all past post, but they have been shown and explained.

3. Both Macedonian and OziMak both face continued negative action/sanctions/limitation to force them to 'see reason' and change their name/way of thinking.

If you can't handle the "pressure", let someone else deal with it that can.

Saying that pressure has been applied to force Macedonia/OziMak to 'see reason' and change her name/way of thinking, and that it is wrong, does Not mean one "can't handle the pressure" and one should leave - after all, Macedonia is still here and so is OziMak.

4. Both Macedonia and Ozimak are at the mercy/face difficulties at the hands of their detractors because of the pre-existing mechanisms in place - re unanimous voting requirements/Veto - / - mods being who they are pre OziMak - who are more than happy to exploit their advantage regardless of merit.

Macedonia does not need NATO and you do not need to be on the MTO. The sun will still rise and set.

The Sun will rise and set regardless if I exist at all or not, let alone on the MTO. Ofcourse there is a selfish reason - the Macedonian identity is as mine as it is to any Macedonian - you don't/wont see me jumping to any action if it doesn't concern me, but this is not the point.

The "pre-existing conditions" faced by Macedonia are eg unanimous voting/veto. Your question may have some merit if your position is that Macedonia Should stay out of the EU and NATO, neither of which you have argued successfully.

The "pre-existing conditions" OziMak faces is that the very detractors are the ones with their hands on the controls ie they're the mods, so no matter how illogical/childish/vindictive they behave there is No one to appeal to for reason and if they feel like changing your name or avitar, they will, regardless of the merit or lack thereof. In such a situation, as in Macedonia's, it is to find a method to battle forward against odds or leave. If one believes leaving will have a negative effect then one needs to get busy using their wit - which both Macedonia and OziMak have done so - they're both still standing aren't they.

Neither you nor Macedonia have demanded anything. Rather, both have taken on a submissive position agreeing to go along with their "detractors".

One should not 'over think' things and not ask simply out of assuming the answer will be no, but the detractor have made it abundantly clear, and very loudly, that the answer to Macedonia and OziMak is No, so there is no guessing or assuming. Knowing this, then, who do you suggest Macedonia boldly demand she be called Macedonia - the UN, or EU or NATO or maybe, God? To say they have not made a demand in this sort of situation is Not a fair call. To wait, and work towards getting the numbers in the EU is a plan.

Neither need to wait for anything. They only need to genuinely assert themselves rather than argue they do not have any natural rights.

Likewise, have I not said OziMak is my name and 'skippy' my avatar.
I demand you restore both my name and avatar.
Lets see how quickly you do the changes.

If you don't do the changes, seeing I have demanded the restoration of my name and avatar, maybe you could explain why - could it be because you are the mod and I'm not?