Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Pelagonija]

I think it would be wise of all Macedonians to refrain from referring to DPMNE as VMRO, because that they are certainly not.

I don't see why that bothers you so much. Grujo is certainly not the past, he and his gang a very much part of the picture, as much as Zajko kukurajko.

It's important for Macedonians to look at these mattes from the correct perspective, which I believe Dragan offers. SDSM's actions don't happen in a vacuum, we got to where we are largely because of DPMNE.

Also if you are going to really talk about how to solve the current problems as you call them, wouldn't it be wise to make sure that a rejection of SDSM doesn't lead right back to DPMNE getting back to power, or is that what you want?

He didn't march behind Zaev, he eve expressed disappointment when he found that the protest he attended turned into a SDSM controlled event. Even if he did March behind Zajko that would have been months before the Tirana platform existed.





Wouldn't this constitute getting defensive when someone brings up Grujo?

Come on mate pull the other one? He knows enough to know that the united Macedonia movement is pro VMRO yet didn't know that all the politicians in ROM are corrupt and the anti VMRO protests weren't pro SDSM protests?? FFS

[Pelagonija]

I find it funny that closet ZZ supporters deny the Alb platform or use buzz comments like we don't know what Zaev agreed to?

Just refer to the Switzerland tour.. we know that the Albs are concerned with national politics.. enough said

[Redsun]

What are you trying to achieve?

Are you attacking Dragan in an attempt to get an angry response because its not working. You have made assumptions on him and they have not been found. How long are you going to keep up with this? I'm cringing at this, I find it really embarrassing.

A good friend of mine is a DPMNE supporter, when I mention DPMNE he doesn't just get defensive. He gets "aggressive defensive". I would never mention past Dpmne actions, as he would take them as some form of attack.

I know hard core feminist, what kind of response will I get If I question there ideology?
What kind of reaction would I get if I approached a group of homos and told them how I personally feel about homosexuality.
What happens when you tell a child "NO", they do the opposite.


The reason why we remain in this situation is because of people such as yourself who cannot negotiate or be diplomatic to what you consider party affiliates/supporters.

If you were to approach an actual Dpmne or Sdsm, do you really think this technique of yours will be successful?


We need a plan B, we need a third option.

Rather then point out past political decisions/actions that can turn the conversation sour, we could be talking about the pros and benefits of a third party. The potential that it would have, there is hope in a third option and when people realize this they will see no hope in their former parties.

Sometimes we cannot have direct conversations with certain peoples due to certain subjects. We don't want to offend them or oppose them as we know this may lead to an argument or the end of discussion with a fruitless result. We use examples to put our point across, we tell of situations/stories in an attempt to compare or explain the likeness/similarity yet avoid direct confrontation. A third option would have an affect on conversion.

Why do we implement techniques that will never work? Its easier to speak of hope than it is to mention "hey you are responsible for the hopeless situation we are in", why kind of reply do you expect from that.

[Gocka]

WTF are you talking about? I don't even understand what your saying, speak English.

Why do you call them VMRO? They are not VMRO first of all.

Calm down and learn something.

And for gods sake, take your meds.

Come on mate pull the other one? He knows enough to know that the united Macedonia movement is pro VMRO yet didn't know that all the politicians in ROM are corrupt and the anti VMRO protests weren't pro SDSM protests?? FFS

[Risto the Great]

WTF are you talking about? I don't even understand what your saying, speak English.

I read it a few times and still couldn't figure it out.

[Risto the Great]

Then we wonder why the diaspora is ignored.

And there it is.
The belief that we in the Diaspora are better informed is mind boggling. We always seem to know better (according to us). We can certainly discuss ideology and provide a sense of right or wrong based upon our experiences in more functioning economies. The clarity of mind we seem to have here soon dissipates when you have to line up for food.

The only time I have ever been without food is when I start looking too much like a pupche and pull my head in for a while.

Meanwhile other people are judging righteously from afar while they live so far from their place of work and take 4 trains and 100 minutes to get to work and not even giving a moment's thought to the Australian government's inaction on foreign investment in Australia and the impact on property prices in the Eastern States. Not protesting about it. Accepting it without a whimper but demanding Dragan abandons his family and any thought of self sustainability so that he can place his faith in the holiest of DPmNE to reveal their master plan finally and exalt all Macedonians to their rightful place as the master race and kings of the world.

Yeah, alright.

[Pelagonija]

What are you trying to achieve?

Are you attacking Dragan in an attempt to get an angry response because its not working. You have made assumptions on him and they have not been found. How long are you going to keep up with this? I'm cringing at this, I find it really embarrassing.

A good friend of mine is a DPMNE supporter, when I mention DPMNE he doesn't just get defensive. He gets "aggressive defensive". I would never mention past Dpmne actions, as he would take them as some form of attack.

I know hard core feminist, what kind of response will I get If I question there ideology?
What kind of reaction would I get if I approached a group of homos and told them how I personally feel about homosexuality.
What happens when you tell a child "NO", they do the opposite.


The reason why we remain in this situation is because of people such as yourself who cannot negotiate or be diplomatic to what you consider party affiliates/supporters.

If you were to approach an actual Dpmne or Sdsm, do you really think this technique of yours will be successful?


We need a plan B, we need a third option.

Rather then point out past political decisions/actions that can turn the conversation sour, we could be talking about the pros and benefits of a third party. The potential that it would have, there is hope in a third option and when people realize this they will see no hope in their former parties.

Sometimes we cannot have direct conversations with certain peoples due to certain subjects. We don't want to offend them or oppose them as we know this may lead to an argument or the end of discussion with a fruitless result. We use examples to put our point across, we tell of situations/stories in an attempt to compare or explain the likeness/similarity yet avoid direct confrontation. A third option would have an affect on conversion.

Why do we implement techniques that will never work? Its easier to speak of hope than it is to mention "hey you are responsible for the hopeless situation we are in", why kind of reply do you expect from that.

What jibber jabber..

Just highlighting that the apathy is leading to the status quo, it's everyone else's fault but that of the individual mentality..

Point is no doubt, you protest against one side your taking sides as simple as that.. I don't see Dragan protesting against the system.. hence is part of the root cause

[Pelagonija]

WTF are you talking about? I don't even understand what your saying, speak English.

Why do you call them VMRO? They are not VMRO first of all.

Calm down and learn something.

And for gods sake, take your meds.

Perfectly good English

Let me dumb it down for you..

Horsesh!t Dragan didn't know that it was a pro sds protest..

[Vangelovski]

No party in Macedonia wants democracy to flourish because of that fundamental premise of democracy...checks, balances and transparency...without the framework of those fundamentals, the fleecing of the state can continue unabated and out of sight and profit the political elites of the country.

Even if you take a long term view going back to the early days of independence, you can argue that it was SDS who set this course for Macedonia...after all, it was SDS that oversaw widespread and endemic bankruptcy of state assets, only to be purchased by party goons at bargain basement prices...

Exactly this.

[Odi Zvezdo]

Wow, that's quite the debate I missed out on here

Bill, you've been on this forum for a long time and have participated in countless discussions regarding various topics. You've been contributing a lot and I think everyone here are thankful for that. From what I have seen most of your posts that involve politics revolve around bashing out on ZZ or SDSM in general. But have I ever called you a DPMNE supporter? No I haven't.
That's because (as I keep saying over and over) if someone's being critical to a certain political party that doesn't automatically make him a supporter of the opposite one.

I've lived here my whole life, I remember my dad losing his job in the SDSM-induced mayhem of the criminal privatization of the 90's and his subsequent failed efforts to get another one. I remember going to school with an empty stomach because the 4 of us had to live off my mom's textile worker paycheck. I remember wearing patched clothing because I couldn't afford a new shirt or coat, I could only dream about that. I remember my mom's tears when the people from the power company came to cut the power because we couldn't pay the bills. I also remember my father's tears when he had to sell the little property he had for a ridiculous amount of money just to pay those bills so me and my sister didn't have to do our homework on candlelight. I remember him having to pawn our car for some money so that he could pay for my sister's wedding. I remember spending my youth not having a dime in my pocket so that I can buy a girl a drink. I remember lying to my friends that I had to study for a test tomorrow but the real reason I wasn't going out was because I couldn't afford a beer in the disco. I remember not being able to go to faculty despite my good grades because I couldn't afford it and crown my knowledge with a university degree. And many more ordeals directly caused by SDSM's reign. So no, I'm no fan of those crooks.

I participated in my hometown's protests (never been in Skopje behind Zaev & co., nor have I participated in any paint job, something I strongly condemned even then) and abandoned them exactly because SDSM usurped them as their own. I couldn't stand to be in the same basket with them after everything me and my family suffered because of them so I had to back out.

You say I keep mentioning Grujo and DPMNE, well that's because they're the current problem generators (and have been for the past 11 years). They're the ones in power, they pull all the strings, they make all the wrong decisions. If this was 1996 you would find me criticizing SDSM because they were running the show then and were therefore responsible for the bullshit then. It's that simple.

Now, i haven't participated in the "for United Macedonia" protests because of 2 reasons:
1) As most of you surely know, that is not a citizens' movement but a DPMNE-sponsored and instigated operation. And while I do believe there are many true patriots that also participate in it, those are people that are being manipulated into thinking they're actually defending Macedonia but in reality are only being (ab)used by DPMNE to serve their purpose. At the front I could clearly see the same people that participated in the counter-protests (GDOM) a year ago. FFS even the leaders of the "movement" themselves have fat ties to DPMNE. Joining the people that protested your own protest would be hypocritical to say the least.
2) What is this movement protesting? Accepting the Albanian platform,right? We do not know what Zajko has agreed on with the Albanian parties. So far we just have DPMNE speculations that they have accepted their platform (which is exactly what triggered the "movement"), but no official confirmation (nor denouncement for that matter) from ZZ. So you go out to protest what, a speculation from the government-controlled media? If you protest something, you need a solid proof for the thing you protest against. You don't have that at the moment. Hypothetically, if Zajko does end up forming a government, and it turns out he's attempting the implementation of the platform (name change, flag change, constitution change, anthem change, officializing the Albanian language on the entire territory etc etc) THAT would be the time to protest. Then is the time when you will see me protesting again, even with the counter-protesters if I have to. I have no doubt he has conceded to certain Albanian demands, if he hadn't he wouldn't have the majority right now. BUT, what he conceded specifically isn't known at this time.

Some of you may agree with that, others may not. You're entitled to your own opinion.

Whether we end up with Zajko running the show, or we see Grujo claiming back the throne, you can be certain in one thing - Macedonia is f***d either way. The sheeple here that have the same perception as some people on this very forum (where everything is just black and white) will keep putting these 2 criminal organizations to run their country until there is nothing left to run. Or at least until there is no Macedonian left here to run, when they all have moved out. May the last one to leave please switch the light off.

I agree...we don't know what will happen until Parliament does actually resume.

You never know, you could see a similar incident to that of Ceaușescu in Romania if ZZ fully implements the Tirana Platform!!

[Tomche Makedonche]

I agree...we don't know what will happen until Parliament does actually resume.

Ignorance: the corner stone of apathy

You never know, you could see a similar incident to that of Ceaușescu in Romania if ZZ fully implements the Tirana Platform!!

Bahahahahaha sorry, nothing personal, but yeah, judging from the constant stream of excuses utilised to date, I'm sure it will finally "click" by then, like it "clicked" when they changed the name, like it "clicked" when they changed the flag, like it "clicked" when they abandoned their kinsmen, like it "clicked" when they agreed to give up the purpose of the state for the Albanians...

I'm positive it will definitely "click" now, they just need the time to work out what Zajko and his Albanian coalition are up to...

[Gocka]

And how the fuck would you know?

You are off to a good start, 50 odd posts of incomprehensible bullshit, most of them about supposedly being able to read Dragans mind.

Do us a favor and read the newspaper for your 100 minute ride.

Perfectly good English

Let me dumb it down for you..

Horsesh!t Dragan didn't know that it was a pro sds protest..

[Gocka]

Agreed, I have brought this up many times. I think I have a unique perspective on this forum because I grew up in Macedonia after independence, and I have also lived now the majority of my life as part of the diaspora. I have lived in both shoes.

I can say with out a doubt it is very hard to get by in ROM if you are not connected to a party or just down right dishonest. Good hardworking and honest people in ROM get walked all over and almost never live a decent life.

Life in the USA is paradise in comparison. As you pointed out, as if we don't have apathy in the west, we are just lucky that the underlying democracies are strong enough to bare it for now. The USA has one of the lowest voter turn outs of all developed countries, what is the excuse for that?

Do you people realize the average salary is like 200 Euros? Do people realize the average electric bill is 50 Euros, that gasoline is more expensive than in the west, and that the price of meat and cheese is more than in the USA. Everything else costs more, electronics, clothes, etc. Can any of you live on 200 Euros A MONTH? Now tell that same guy who makes 200 Euros a month to give that up and fight for a cause all by his lonesome.

That doesn't excuse everything that is happening and that Macedonians do, but sometimes the diaspora can act like a bunch of arrogant weenies.

And there it is.
The belief that we in the Diaspora are better informed is mind boggling. We always seem to know better (according to us). We can certainly discuss ideology and provide a sense of right or wrong based upon our experiences in more functioning economies. The clarity of mind we seem to have here soon dissipates when you have to line up for food.

The only time I have ever been without food is when I start looking too much like a pupche and pull my head in for a while.

Meanwhile other people are judging righteously from afar while they live so far from their place of work and take 4 trains and 100 minutes to get to work and not even giving a moment's thought to the Australian government's inaction on foreign investment in Australia and the impact on property prices in the Eastern States. Not protesting about it. Accepting it without a whimper but demanding Dragan abandons his family and any thought of self sustainability so that he can place his faith in the holiest of DPmNE to reveal their master plan finally and exalt all Macedonians to their rightful place as the master race and kings of the world.

Yeah, alright.

[Phoenix]

...You never know, you could see a similar incident to that of Ceaușescu in Romania if ZZ fully implements the Tirana Platform!!

Personally, I'd love to see it, not just with Zajko but Grujo and the rest of the corrupt bastards that have become the political or royal class in Macedonia.

Sadly, this is where reality kicks in and the realisation that the Macedonian's are too polarised and blindly follow their leaders, that such a scenario is another universe away from the here and now...it's the intrinsic, mindless tribalism of the Macedonian lemming that has perpetuated two decades of economic and societal dysfunction and discord, together with the medieval practices of tribute from the political parties to the sycophant rank and file.

I don't believe Macedonian's deserve democracy...they just don't understand how it works, nor how to use it...

Macedonian's view it as their right and that democracy is there solely for their economic benefit and that the rewards and it's power come with no further action from themselves...they miss a vital point that with democracy come some unconditional responsibilities, that one has to nurture and protect it at all costs.

[Pelagonija]

And how the fuck would you know?

You are off to a good start, 50 odd posts of incomprehensible bullshit, most of them about supposedly being able to read Dragans mind.

Do us a favor and read the newspaper for your 100 minute ride.

Ahh? He admitted to participating in a pro sds rally? That's the Macedonian Truth.. hence the forum? Hence the debate?

Oh Waite he didn't know that it was a pro sds rally and that Zaev is corrupt and soulless?

Re newspaper no thanks, picking on you leftist gay rites advocates is more entertaining..