Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Gocka]

I think it would be wise of all Macedonians to refrain from referring to DPMNE as VMRO, because that they are certainly not.

I don't see why that bothers you so much. Grujo is certainly not the past, he and his gang a very much part of the picture, as much as Zajko kukurajko.

It's important for Macedonians to look at these mattes from the correct perspective, which I believe Dragan offers. SDSM's actions don't happen in a vacuum, we got to where we are largely because of DPMNE.

Also if you are going to really talk about how to solve the current problems as you call them, wouldn't it be wise to make sure that a rejection of SDSM doesn't lead right back to DPMNE getting back to power, or is that what you want?

He didn't march behind Zaev, he eve expressed disappointment when he found that the protest he attended turned into a SDSM controlled event. Even if he did March behind Zajko that would have been months before the Tirana platform existed.

The repetitive "what about Gruo..... What about VMRO....."
Repetition of anything eventually gets fucken boring.

We know Gruo was a skunk.

But he is a has been..... Now What do we do about this new moron Zaev? and "what about Gruevski" is not a legitimate argument or excuse.... Its avoidance to the real question.



Dragan..... You marched behind Zaev in those anti Gruevski protests and I sincerely mean it when I say good for you!

Now how are you going to respond to this other wrong which is Zaev in power?
Are you going to join the protesters in front of parliament (That's if they haven't given up) and report to us just like you did in that so called colourful revolution you took part in?


PS: you did mention back then, you were disappointed that SDSM hijacked the protest and I give you credit for that. But to me you do seem now to get defensive when someone brings up the name Zaev.

Wouldn't this constitute getting defensive when someone brings up Grujo?

your response mentions Gruo 3 times..... While the question re Zaev.... ZZ was mentioned once.

[Risto the Great]

Bill, I have never seen Dragan being supportive of Zaev. Not even once. And if he was, I would still be interested in his opinion as to why.

[Risto the Great]

I think it would be wise of all Macedonians to refrain from referring to DPMNE as VMRO, because that they are certainly not.

I can't even bring myself to write DPMNE. They have disrespected Macedonia so much that I write it as DPmNE.

Definitely not worthy of the VMRO appellation and I will not support that smokescreen.

[Phoenix]

...It's important for Macedonians to have look at these mattes from the correct perspective, which I believe Dragan offers. SDSM's actions don't happen in a vacuum, we got to where we are largely because of DPMNE.

I strongly disagree with this statement...remember when SDS refused to participate in parliament, refused to go to elections and recently led from the front in vandalising Macedonia with their condom revolution...at no point have they acted as a responsible opposition or a viable alternative to DPMNE...they were and continue to be a disgrace to the sanctity of democracy and their current surreptitious and disingenuous means to usurp power is further proof of their democratic deficiency.

Democracy is dependent on the lifeblood of checks and balances, of opposition parties holding governments to account...they have failed miserably on that score...and therefor are complicit in every crime committed by DPNME as a result of their self serving indifference.

[Bill77]

Bill, I have never seen Dragan being supportive of Zaev. Not even once. And if he was, I would still be interested in his opinion as to why.

it's just the impression I'm getting. Which is why I'm asking the way I am.... Mabe not for anyone else, but for me to be convinced he is genuinely anti both parties.

I'm not deliberately trying to be a smart arss towards him. I've shut up till now because I genuinely respect his input because he has to live in that forsaken country.

[Gocka]

I can see where you are coming from, but I take a much longer term view, and I wasn't necessarily referring to the recent political turmoil, but the turmoil of the country in every sense. Since DPMNE has had almost absolute control for so long, its hard to say they are not to blame for the majority of the problems in the country.

Also if we are going to talk about checks and balances, how can we ignore the fact that DPmNE stifled any checks are balances for years. Controlling the media, judged, police, etc. They knowingly and willfully made sure that there were no checks and balances.

If we are talking solely about the political deadlock, then yes, they certainly share some blame for the breaking down of democracy, but if we are honest, did DPmNE really want democracy to flourish?

I strongly disagree with this statement...remember when SDS refused to participate in parliament, refused to go to elections and recently led from the front in vandalising Macedonia with their condom revolution...at no point have they acted as a responsible opposition or a viable alternative to DPMNE...they were and continue to be a disgrace to the sanctity of democracy and their current surreptitious and disingenuous means to usurp power is further proof of their democratic deficiency.

Democracy is dependent on the lifeblood of checks and balances, of opposition parties holding governments to account...they have failed miserably on that score...and therefor are complicit in every crime committed by DPNME as a result of their self serving indifference.

[Bill77]

He didn't march behind Zaev, he eve expressed disappointment when he found that the protest he attended turned into a SDSM controlled event.

I did mention that....

Wouldn't this constitute getting defensive when someone brings up Grujo?

Oh dear......... Sigh.....

[Phoenix]

I can see where you are coming from, but I take a much longer term view, and I wasn't necessarily referring to the recent political turmoil, but the turmoil of the country in every sense. Since DPMNE has had almost absolute control for so long, its hard to say they are not to blame for the majority of the problems in the country.

Also if we are going to talk about checks and balances, how can we ignore the fact that DPmNE stifled any checks are balances for years. Controlling the media, judged, police, etc. They knowingly and willfully made sure that there were no checks and balances.

If we are talking solely about the political deadlock, then yes, they certainly share some blame for the breaking down of democracy, but if we are honest, did DPmNE really want democracy to flourish?

No party in Macedonia wants democracy to flourish because of that fundamental premise of democracy...checks, balances and transparency...without the framework of those fundamentals, the fleecing of the state can continue unabated and out of sight and profit the political elites of the country.

Even if you take a long term view going back to the early days of independence, you can argue that it was SDS who set this course for Macedonia...after all, it was SDS that oversaw widespread and endemic bankruptcy of state assets, only to be purchased by party goons at bargain basement prices...

[Tomche Makedonche]

I strongly disagree with this statement...remember when SDS refused to participate in parliament, refused to go to elections and recently led from the front in vandalising Macedonia with their condom revolution...at no point have they acted as a responsible opposition or a viable alternative to DPMNE...they were and continue to be a disgrace to the sanctity of democracy and their current surreptitious and disingenuous means to usurp power is further proof of their democratic deficiency.

Democracy is dependent on the lifeblood of checks and balances, of opposition parties holding governments to account...they have failed miserably on that score...and therefor are complicit in every crime committed by DPNME as a result of their self serving indifference.

I think that might just be the post of the fucking thread right there...

[Gocka]

What are we arguing about again? lol

Rewind,

My point was that SDSM's actions didn't just come out of the blue, and ignoring DPmNE as if they are only a part of the past is wrong. If you focus solely on SDSM and their actions you fall right back into partisanship. A sense of perspective that both parties brought us here is needed. I no way was that an excuse for SDSM actions, merely a reminder that they didn't create this mess on their own.

Otherwise the rest of it I agree with.

No party in Macedonia wants democracy to flourish because of that fundamental premise of democracy...checks, balances and transparency...without the framework of those fundamentals, the fleecing of the state can continue unabated and out of sight and profit the political elites of the country.

Even if you take a long term view going back to the early days of independence, you can argue that it was SDS who set this course for Macedonia...after all, it was SDS that oversaw widespread and endemic bankruptcy of state assets, only to be purchased by party goons at bargain basement prices...

Yes you did, while also throwing in " You marched behind Zaev". You gave him props with the right and slapped him with the left.

I did mention that....

EXACTLY!

I am sure that is how he felt about "it's just the impression I'm getting"

I simply put the same burden on you, to constantly prove you are anti DPMNE, and you think its ridiculous right? To take every statement and read into it too far.

Oh dear......... Sigh.....

[Bill77]

EXACTLY!

I am sure that is how he felt about "it's just the impression I'm getting"

I simply put the same burden on you, to constantly prove you are anti DPMNE, and you think its ridiculous right? To take every statement and read into it too far.

oh dear..... On many points.... And it's just a short statement.

[Gocka]

I'm not trying to jump on you Bill, I'm just making the point that the level of proof you require to show someone is anti both parties is a little much.

He is probably the only poster form within Macedonia, and everyone wants to jump on him. Then we wonder why the diaspora is ignored.

oh dear..... On many points.... And it's just a short statement.

[DraganOfStip]

Wow, that's quite the debate I missed out on here

Bill, you've been on this forum for a long time and have participated in countless discussions regarding various topics. You've been contributing a lot and I think everyone here are thankful for that. From what I have seen most of your posts that involve politics revolve around bashing out on ZZ or SDSM in general. But have I ever called you a DPMNE supporter? No I haven't.
That's because (as I keep saying over and over) if someone's being critical to a certain political party that doesn't automatically make him a supporter of the opposite one.

I've lived here my whole life, I remember my dad losing his job in the SDSM-induced mayhem of the criminal privatization of the 90's and his subsequent failed efforts to get another one. I remember going to school with an empty stomach because the 4 of us had to live off my mom's textile worker paycheck. I remember wearing patched clothing because I couldn't afford a new shirt or coat, I could only dream about that. I remember my mom's tears when the people from the power company came to cut the power because we couldn't pay the bills. I also remember my father's tears when he had to sell the little property he had for a ridiculous amount of money just to pay those bills so me and my sister didn't have to do our homework on candlelight. I remember him having to pawn our car for some money so that he could pay for my sister's wedding. I remember spending my youth not having a dime in my pocket so that I can buy a girl a drink. I remember lying to my friends that I had to study for a test tomorrow but the real reason I wasn't going out was because I couldn't afford a beer in the disco. I remember not being able to go to faculty despite my good grades because I couldn't afford it and crown my knowledge with a university degree. And many more ordeals directly caused by SDSM's reign. So no, I'm no fan of those crooks.

I participated in my hometown's protests (never been in Skopje behind Zaev & co., nor have I participated in any paint job, something I strongly condemned even then) and abandoned them exactly because SDSM usurped them as their own. I couldn't stand to be in the same basket with them after everything me and my family suffered because of them so I had to back out.

You say I keep mentioning Grujo and DPMNE, well that's because they're the current problem generators (and have been for the past 11 years). They're the ones in power, they pull all the strings, they make all the wrong decisions. If this was 1996 you would find me criticizing SDSM because they were running the show then and were therefore responsible for the bullshit then. It's that simple.

Now, i haven't participated in the "for United Macedonia" protests because of 2 reasons:
1) As most of you surely know, that is not a citizens' movement but a DPMNE-sponsored and instigated operation. And while I do believe there are many true patriots that also participate in it, those are people that are being manipulated into thinking they're actually defending Macedonia but in reality are only being (ab)used by DPMNE to serve their purpose. At the front I could clearly see the same people that participated in the counter-protests (GDOM) a year ago. FFS even the leaders of the "movement" themselves have fat ties to DPMNE. Joining the people that protested your own protest would be hypocritical to say the least.
2) What is this movement protesting? Accepting the Albanian platform,right? We do not know what Zajko has agreed on with the Albanian parties. So far we just have DPMNE speculations that they have accepted their platform (which is exactly what triggered the "movement"), but no official confirmation (nor denouncement for that matter) from ZZ. So you go out to protest what, a speculation from the government-controlled media? If you protest something, you need a solid proof for the thing you protest against. You don't have that at the moment. Hypothetically, if Zajko does end up forming a government, and it turns out he's attempting the implementation of the platform (name change, flag change, constitution change, anthem change, officializing the Albanian language on the entire territory etc etc) THAT would be the time to protest. Then is the time when you will see me protesting again, even with the counter-protesters if I have to. I have no doubt he has conceded to certain Albanian demands, if he hadn't he wouldn't have the majority right now. BUT, what he conceded specifically isn't known at this time.

Some of you may agree with that, others may not. You're entitled to your own opinion.

Whether we end up with Zajko running the show, or we see Grujo claiming back the throne, you can be certain in one thing - Macedonia is f***d either way. The sheeple here that have the same perception as some people on this very forum (where everything is just black and white) will keep putting these 2 criminal organizations to run their country until there is nothing left to run. Or at least until there is no Macedonian left here to run, when they all have moved out. May the last one to leave please switch the light off.

[Gocka]

I remember those days. Almost anyone who has lived in the republic at any point since its inception knows how hard it was, and still is. I really empathize with you. It makes you wonder what all these partisan sheep see in these pathetic excuses for "leaders". Tell me a time when either party left the country and the people in better shape? I guess your family was like mine, too proud and honest to whore themselves for a job. I guess that is where all the partisanship comes from, me and you see crooks, but the sheep remember a time when someone gave them a job. Those kids we couldn't hang out with because we were too broke had a dad or and uncle who had a friend, they got jobs in exchange for party obedience.

That really is the crux of everything. From a far we all assume that everything is so simple, that these people are whoring themselves to DPmNE and SDSm because they really believe in a right or left ideology, or what ever political bullshit is going on at the moment, No, its really about the idea that if I vote for X, I might get Y.

The sheepish devotion is from a sense of dependence. The parties have always known this.

If you find a way to break that attachment, that quid pro quo view of democracy, then you have a chance to take down both parties. The problem is that Macedonia has an almost non existent private sector, and even the private sector can be heavily dependent on the good favor of the ruling party.

I understand that these parties have citizens by the nuts, at the end of the day you need to eat, you need to support yourself and your family, but the only way to break that hold, is to remove yourself from that dependency.

What we need to teach Macedonians is that they need to take their well being into their own hands and not just wait around for a government hand out.

I see a higher rate of entrepreneurship from the younger generations, but I also see a lot of cafe lifestyle from them too. One can only hope that the kids realize that where there is a will there is a way and that they don't need the government to take care of them. Then they will be more inclined to vote based on a moral stance rather than from a point of dependency.

Wow, that's quite the debate I missed out on here

Bill, you've been on this forum for a long time and have participated in countless discussions regarding various topics. You've been contributing a lot and I think everyone here are thankful for that. From what I have seen most of your posts that involve politics revolve around bashing out on ZZ or SDSM in general. But have I ever called you a DPMNE supporter? No I haven't.
That's because (as I keep saying over and over) if someone's being critical to a certain political party that doesn't automatically make him a supporter of the opposite one.

I've lived here my whole life, I remember my dad losing his job in the SDSM-induced mayhem of the criminal privatization of the 90's and his subsequent failed efforts to get another one. I remember going to school with an empty stomach because the 4 of us had to live off my mom's textile worker paycheck. I remember wearing patched clothing because I couldn't afford a new shirt or coat, I could only dream about that. I remember my mom's tears when the people from the power company came to cut the power because we couldn't pay the bills. I also remember my father's tears when he had to sell the little property he had for a ridiculous amount of money just to pay those bills so me and my sister didn't have to do our homework on candlelight. I remember him having to pawn our car for some money so that he could pay for my sister's wedding. I remember spending my youth not having a dime in my pocket so that I can buy a girl a drink. I remember lying to my friends that I had to study for a test tomorrow but the real reason I wasn't going out was because I couldn't afford a beer in the disco. I remember not being able to go to faculty despite my good grades because I couldn't afford it and crown my knowledge with a university degree. And many more ordeals directly caused by SDSM's reign. So no, I'm no fan of those crooks.

I participated in my hometown's protests (never been in Skopje behind Zaev & co., nor have I participated in any paint job, something I strongly condemned even then) and abandoned them exactly because SDSM usurped them as their own. I couldn't stand to be in the same basket with them after everything me and my family suffered because of them so I had to back out.

You say I keep mentioning Grujo and DPMNE, well that's because they're the current problem generators (and have been for the past 11 years). They're the ones in power, they pull all the strings, they make all the wrong decisions. If this was 1996 you would find me criticizing SDSM because they were running the show then and were therefore responsible for the bullshit then. It's that simple.

Now, i haven't participated in the "for United Macedonia" protests because of 2 reasons:
1) As most of you surely know, that is not a citizens' movement but a DPMNE-sponsored and instigated operation. And while I do believe there are many true patriots that also participate in it, those are people that are being manipulated into thinking they're actually defending Macedonia but in reality are only being (ab)used by DPMNE to serve their purpose. At the front I could clearly see the same people that participated in the counter-protests (GDOM) a year ago. FFS even the leaders of the "movement" themselves have fat ties to DPMNE. Joining the people that protested your own protest would be hypocritical to say the least.
2) What is this movement protesting? Accepting the Albanian platform,right? We do not know what Zajko has agreed on with the Albanian parties. So far we just have DPMNE speculations that they have accepted their platform (which is exactly what triggered the "movement"), but no official confirmation (nor denouncement for that matter) from ZZ. So you go out to protest what, a speculation from the government-controlled media? If you protest something, you need a solid proof for the thing you protest against. You don't have that at the moment. Hypothetically, if Zajko does end up forming a government, and it turns out he's attempting the implementation of the platform (name change, flag change, constitution change, anthem change, officializing the Albanian language on the entire territory etc etc) THAT would be the time to protest. Then is the time when you will see me protesting again, even with the counter-protesters if I have to. I have no doubt he has conceded to certain Albanian demands, if he hadn't he wouldn't have the majority right now. BUT, what he conceded specifically isn't known at this time.

Some of you may agree with that, others may not. You're entitled to your own opinion.

Whether we end up with Zajko running the show, or we see Grujo claiming back the throne, you can be certain in one thing - Macedonia is f***d either way. The sheeple here that have the same perception as some people on this very forum (where everything is just black and white) will keep putting these 2 criminal organizations to run their country until there is nothing left to run. Or at least until there is no Macedonian left here to run, when they all have moved out. May the last one to leave please switch the light off.

[Pelagonija]

You know, for one of the most recent members here you seem to take too much liberty when corresponding to senior members. I just wonder how much more will the admins here put up with your arrogance before you get a nice spanking. My username is written just above my avatar, if you have problems reading it then I suggest you visit the optometrist.
To answer your question (and you seem you have a lot of them, strange you didn't list them by numbers this time?), what will happen is ZZ taking a grip on everything that can shake his rule including judiciary, police, state employees, media control, corruption, and continuing the Albanization process which Macedonia is undergoing for quite some time now. In other words, he will continue where Grujo left off, with the exception of extending the mandate of the SJO so that he gets rid of his political enemies. Oh wait darn it, Grujo was doing that too... Oh well, let's just say he'll continue Grujo's policy of dictatorship. Macedonia instead of being released from the shackles will only be "under new management".

Hey DardarnTeShtipit..

Written like a true leftist communist..personal attacks, stifling freedom of speech and always going off the topic when pressed accordingly.. I mean why would you want the admins to "spank" silence someone who eats cirejne for breakfast, piperki for lunch and has rakija before bed? Have you lost your marbles?

Now back to the topic, your proving my assumptions to be facts.

A) Judging by your text I don't believe your neutral. You passively support ZZ fakes anti corruption based bid for power as I mentioned you protested and took sides in a fight where both teams are equally corrupt, admit you love or voted for Eden evra za Vice. I don't buy your narrative and you ignore this fact in a round about way

B) You keep justifying the Albanisation process, though why expedite this process? That's what I don't get? Perhaps the next generation will do a better job at protecting our national interests?

C) I'll maintain that party politics and inat is imbedded in most Macedonians DNA hence the status quo, your one of them judging by your text

D) In western law life is above the law.. Did you protest Smilkovci lake massacre on good Friday? Nope.. refer to (a). But you protest one corrupt politician against another? Halllooooo?? I'll keep bringing this point up over and over in order to highlight the discrepancies and the illogical justification of party politics

E) Could you provide a document of all Macedonian governments outlining corruption In dollar value and human suffrage? so that we can make an informed decision on the level of corruption in comparison?

F) Once again, things can only get worse by inventing chaos and taking sides and fuelling the flames of division. Don't do it Dardan..

G) I used letters and not numbers to highlight my perceived arrogance


Don't take offence mate, It takes me 100 minutes and 4 trains to get to and from work, hence don't be shocked to be the subject of my amusement and harassment during this timeframe.