Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Tomche Makedonche]

Option 4, Zaev, is a short-term high risk. There is the very real potential for the Albanian language to be implemented as a second official language nationwide and the change of our name on the international stage, at minimum, would be the two biggest/soonest changes. Maybe it is naive thinking, but I believe that more nashi will react more harshly to such sudden and powerful changes regarding the Albanian issue and the name issue than to the subtle changes by a Gruevski regime. For example, DPMNE supporters would already be in opposition, and you'll get many more SDSM supporters than you would get in the current movement. Hence, I think Zaev's rule would be short because the only way he can survive a Macedonian onslaught is to break with the Albanian political parties main wishes; but if he does that, he loses a coalition. In the meantime, either a 3rd party candidate could pop up or a different DPMNE candidate who is less tainted, and probably with that a new SDSM candidate will be needed.

Just wanted to touch on this to highlight where I believe our thoughts differ with this option. I think the assumption here is that when Zajko forms government, the first item on his list would be implementing the demands in the Tirana Platform. Whilst this may be the case, I think it would be pretty idiotic for SDS to approach it in this fashion. I think their priority would be to disperse the current nationalistic movement by replacing it with something else, and the best way to do it is through distraction, and the best distraction is to go ahead with what SDS’s platform has espoused for the past two years, prosecuting the DPNE leadership to hold them to account for the corruption exposed through the wiretaps. The public prosecution of the DPNE leadership will serve to distance SDS from the Tirana platform by promoting the perception that the Tirana platform was not really the primary concern or big deal that DPNE tried to make it out to be. The prosecution of DPNE’s leadership will obviously take a while, lets just say about a year, and throughout that period will become the centre of media and public attention. In the meantime, SDS will be rewarding their affiliates and supporters with the usual positions in government and the public sector, effectively attaining the type of financial leverage over their own supporters that DPNE currently hold on their supporters (again the state will continue to be captured by the political elite, the only thing changing being the captor). By the end of that 12 month process, with the DPNE leadership effectively incarcerated, effectively rendering the only government opposition in dysfunctional tatters, with public opinion and their supporter base disenfranchised, and financial leverage attained over SDS’s own supporter base, well then that would probably be the most opportune time to put into effect the implementation of the Tirana Platform as agreed when forming government, most likely under the table, in small drips, no different to what DPNE have, and most likely would have, been doing.

Personally I think that would be the more safer and logical way forward for SDS and their Albanian Coalition, and would assume that in light of the benefits of approaching it this way, would be pretty agreeable to the Albanian Coalition.

This is why I think RoMacedonians risk just as much, if not more, for not capitalising on the momentum of the current movement.

[Vangelovski]

Option 4, Zaev, is a short-term high risk. There is the very real potential for the Albanian language to be implemented as a second official language nationwide and the change of our name on the international stage, at minimum, would be the two biggest/soonest changes. Maybe it is naive thinking, but I believe that more nashi will react more harshly to such sudden and powerful changes regarding the Albanian issue and the name issue than to the subtle changes by a Gruevski regime.

I can't remember it word for word, but the story goes something like this:

There was a Macedonian man living in Ottoman Macedonia. He got up one morning, had breakfast, grabbed this lunch and water canteen, and put his flintlock (old style handgun) into his belt as he left to work in his Effendi's field for the day.

He was an hour or so into ploughing the field when the Effendi walked by and sat under a tree to watch him. It was a stinking hot day. The Effendi noticed the man's lunch and canteen under the tree in the shade. The Effendi calls out to the Macedonian and says, "Hey, Makedonche. Can I have your water?".

The Macedonian pleads with him saying, "Please, its the only water I have and its a scorching hot day. I will need it".

The Effendi ignores him and has a sip of the water. He then empties the entire canteen over his feet to cool them. The Macedonian watches and returns to work in disbelief.

Sometime later, the Effendi calls out to him again. "Hey, Makedonche. I'm hungry, I'm going to eat your lunch". The Macedonian again pleads with him saying that he's been working all morning and he's already starving. The Effendi ignores him again, eats some and throws the rest. The Macedonian watches on in despair and goes back to work.

Again, sometime later, the Effendi, still sitting under the tree, calls the Macedonian over. The Effendi tells him, "I'm bored and I want to beat you". The Macedonian begs him, "Please, what have I done". The Effendi tells him he's done nothing, but it will be fun. The Effendi beats the man to within an inch of his life and then tells him to pick him up and carry him to the top of a nearby hill.

The Macedonians pleads with him again, "Please Effendi, you've drunk my water, eaten my lunch and beat me. Its scorching hot and I'm weak. I can't carry you to the top of the hill".

The Effendi tells him to do it and stop complaining. The Macedonian, mustering the last of his strength, picks the Effendi up and carries him to the top of the hill. Once there, the Macedonian collapses and his flintlock falls out of his belt. The Effendi sees it and exclaims, "You've had a gun on you all this time!?". Macedonian replies, "Pa, losi vreminja se Efendi. Go nosam za odbrana".

Losi verminja indeed.

[Gocka]

I asked for him to be banned long ago, I too don't see anything but a propaganda spreader and apologist.

Albo, you're such a wanker.

You've been given far too long a leash on here to spread your nonsensical propaganda.

I think here is one fatal flaw in your logic. I don't see a movement to capitalize on. I'm not sure from where or from who you see a viable pro Macedonian movement, or you referring to the storming of the parliament or something else?

Personally I don't fear the short term losses we would suffer as a people. What ever treachery is perpetrated today, can easily be reversed in the blink of an eye if a real Macedonian movement were to arise. With out a real pro Macedonian movement what can you accomplish that will be truly positive and sustainable? Remember freedom needs upkeep, do you really believe that today, if you handed a perfect Macedonia over to ROM Macedonians, how long do you expect it to last?

Maybe you are a bigger optimist than me, but I just don't see a movement as long as ventilators and ustashe shirts are involved.

This is why I think RoMacedonians risk just as much, if not more, for not capitalising on the momentum of the current movement.

[Phoenix]

I can't remember it word for word, but the story goes something like this:

There was a Macedonian man living in Ottoman Macedonia. He got up one morning, had breakfast, grabbed this lunch and water canteen, and put his flintlock (old style handgun) into his belt as he left to work in his Effendi's field for the day.

He was an hour or so into ploughing the field when the Effendi walked by and sat under a tree to watch him. It was a stinking hot day. The Effendi noticed the man's lunch and canteen under the tree in the shade. The Effendi calls out to the Macedonian and says, "Hey, Makedonche. Can I have your water?".

The Macedonian pleads with him saying, "Please, its the only water I have and its a scorching hot day. I will need it".

The Effendi ignores him and has a sip of the water. He then empties the entire canteen over his feet to cool them. The Macedonian watches and returns to work in disbelief.

Sometime later, the Effendi calls out to him again. "Hey, Makedonche. I'm hungry, I'm going to eat your lunch". The Macedonian again pleads with him saying that he's been working all morning and he's already starving. The Effendi ignores him again, eats some and throws the rest. The Macedonian watches on in despair and goes back to work.

Again, sometime later, the Effendi, still sitting under the tree, calls the Macedonian over. The Effendi tells him, "I'm bored and I want to beat you". The Macedonian begs him, "Please, what have I done". The Effendi tells him he's done nothing, but it will be fun. The Effendi beats the man to within an inch of his life and then tells him to pick him up and carry him to the top of a nearby hill.

The Macedonians pleads with him again, "Please Effendi, you've drunk my water, eaten my lunch and beat me. Its scorching hot and I'm weak. I can't carry you to the top of the hill".

The Effendi tells him to do it and stop complaining. The Macedonian, mustering the last of his strength, picks the Effendi up and carries him to the top of the hill. Once there, the Macedonian collapses and his flintlock falls out of his belt. The Effendi sees it and exclaims, "You've had a gun on you all this time!?". Macedonian replies, "Pa, losi vreminja se Efendi. Go nosam za odbrana".

Losi verminja indeed.

Looks like nothing has changed...sums up the situation perfectly...

[Phoenix]

...Personally I don't fear the short term losses we would suffer as a people. What ever treachery is perpetrated today, can easily be reversed in the blink of an eye if a real Macedonian movement were to arise...

I strongly disagree, once you give certain privileges to a minority group, it's near impossible to strip them of those rights, regardless of how generous or undeserving those privileges may have been...I would imagine that you'd be creating a precedent, that in itself is a corner stone of most legal systems...once the genie is out of the bottle there's no chance getting that sucker back in.

Macedonia is on the slippery slope to oblivion, plain and simple, where once there was some semblance of 'hope', it has now completely disappeared...

Zaev, more than any other leader of the past 2 decades will do anything to achieve self interest and every one of his supporters is complicit in the crime of destroying Macedonia and shitting on her history and culture.

[Gocka]

SOM,

Not sure how you construed my comments towards you as confrontational but I will "Relax". I was simply challenging your assertions as you were mine, that's all.

If I have characterized you and your views, why don't you take a moment to explain them.

You mostly ask questions of others, and challenge their comments, which is fine, but I didn't see you espouse a detailed point of view on these events.

I am actually very interested to see your true point of view on a few things that are going on. As the senior most member here, I think many of us would love to hear from you in these turbulent times.

If I may:

Do you think that DPMNE is a lesser evil that SDSM in general

Do you think that DPMNE is a lesser evil that SDSM in the context of, would you rather see DPMNE come to power at this moment, in order to potentially thwart SDSM and the Tirana platform?

Do you think the storming of the parliament was an organic mini revolt aimed at the actions taken by the parliament? Given that was it a good thing?

If the group storming the parliament was not organic but DPMNE directed, was it a good thing should we support it, condone it?

If the group storming the parliament was not organic but DPMNE directed, was it a good thing should we support it, condone it?


If the group storming the parliament was not organic but NOT DPMNE directed but maybe DPMNE inspired, meaning the people acted on their own accord but because they want DPMNE to be in power instead, was it a good thing should we support it, condone it?

Would you support DPMNE coming back to power, if they are the only opposition to SDSM that exists at this time?

I just want to set up a baseline because I feel like this thread moved very quickly and I never got a good sense of where you stand, and I don't want to waist time debating something that's a misunderstanding to begin with.

[Gocka]

It is a slippery slope, agreed. But supporting and encouraging faux patriotism has been our slippery slope for 25 years, and it has brought us to the point where the ventilator is the "Macedonian" flag with out question really. You can't save Macedonia with a fake movement, even if it denies Zaev and the Albanians today, that same movement will sell Macedonia out in some other way in short time, because the core is broken and anti Macedonian. You are only delaying the inevitable.

By reinforcing faux patriotism and letting them think they are "winning" you are guaranteeing that a real movement will never happen (not enough oxygen).

You need to take the moral and ideological high ground and hope to attract a movement from there, otherwise its a choice between the fire or the frying pan.

Macedonians have put 99 nails out of 100 in the coffin, and we are freaking out about the last one? As Vangelovski pointed out, the OFA was the real "Tirana Platform", our faux patriotism has basically left the OFA off the table, if the Tirana platform is worth a revolt why not the OFA? Why is this the straw that broke the camels back?

I wish more than anyone that we are seeing the birth of a revolution, but maybe when I see the ventilator being burned along with Albanian flags, and the OFA being ripped to pieces, then I will believe it.

I hurts but I mean this,

The current state of FYROM, needs to die. It needs to collapse, and if Macedonians wish to have a state, a real state for Macedonians, then Macedonia will come back. If Macedonians don't want a state, then what can you or I do about that?

Lets be honest, what has been the value of having a state since 1991? How has the Macedonian identity, people, and culture benefited from having a state?

The state of FYROM has introduced the name FYROM to an entire generation of the world,
it has made a generation of Macedonian children believe in a vassal flag and think our real flag is "propaganda".
It has provided a meager life for the majority of Macedonians.
It has embarrassed Macedonians worldwide on countless occasions.
It has as an official state made compromising statements about our identity and history.
Our language, religion and customs have been altered or forgotten
Our people have been brainwashed, and demoralized.
National wealth plundered.



If the state of FYROM was a person/individual we would want them hung for treachery against Macedonians. So, I ask again, what are we trying to save here?

I strongly disagree, once you give certain privileges to a minority group, it's near impossible to strip them of those rights, regardless of how generous or undeserving those privileges may have been...I would imagine that you'd be creating a precedent, that in itself is a corner stone of most legal systems...once the genie is out of the bottle there's no chance getting that sucker back in.

Macedonia is on the slippery slope to oblivion, plain and simple, where once there was some semblance of 'hope', it has now completely disappeared...

Zaev, more than any other leader of the past 2 decades will do anything to achieve self interest and every one of his supporters is complicit in the crime of destroying Macedonia and shitting on her history and culture.

[Pelagonija]

It is a slippery slope, agreed. But supporting and encouraging faux patriotism has been our slippery slope for 25 years, and it has brought us to the point where the ventilator is the "Macedonian" flag with out question really. You can't save Macedonia with a fake movement, even if it denies Zaev and the Albanians today, that same movement will sell Macedonia out in some other way in short time, because the core is broken and anti Macedonian. You are only delaying the inevitable.

By reinforcing faux patriotism and letting them think they are "winning" you are guaranteeing that a real movement will never happen (not enough oxygen).

You need to take the moral and ideological high ground and hope to attract a movement from there, otherwise its a choice between the fire or the frying pan.

Macedonians have put 99 nails out of 100 in the coffin, and we are freaking out about the last one? As Vangelovski pointed out, the OFA was the real "Tirana Platform", our faux patriotism has basically left the OFA off the table, if the Tirana platform is worth a revolt why not the OFA? Why is this the straw that broke the camels back?

I wish more than anyone that we are seeing the birth of a revolution, but maybe when I see the ventilator being burned along with Albanian flags, and the OFA being ripped to pieces, then I will believe it.

I hurts but I mean this,

The current state of FYROM, needs to die. It needs to collapse, and if Macedonians wish to have a state, a real state for Macedonians, then Macedonia will come back. If Macedonians don't want a state, then what can you or I do about that?

Lets be honest, what has been the value of having a state since 1991? How has the Macedonian identity, people, and culture benefited from having a state?

The state of FYROM has introduced the name FYROM to an entire generation of the world,
it has made a generation of Macedonian children believe in a vassal flag and think our real flag is "propaganda".
It has provided a meager life for the majority of Macedonians.
It has embarrassed Macedonians worldwide on countless occasions.
It has as an official state made compromising statements about our identity and history.
Our language, religion and customs have been altered or forgotten
Our people have been brainwashed, and demoralized.
National wealth plundered.



If the state of FYROM was a person/individual we would want them hung for treachery against Macedonians. So, I ask again, what are we trying to save here?

If a genuine revolution ever happens it will be when we've lost complete control of the country, and that will be where Macedonian majority areas will try and break away from control of this hideous creation of Mini Yugoslavia controlled by fascist egghead Albanians and our soulless Macedonian politicians. Watch when they start losing their jobs in state structures.

One thing Macedonians are really good is breaking things, including their own state.. the status quo will continue for now..

[Gocka]

Lets think about this critically

The Macedonian state is compromised.

A state has vast centralized power and influence.

So the state of FYROM has been using that power and influence to brainwash and subjugate Macedonians.

If there were no state, the likely hood of a grass roots movement becomes much larger. Currently Macedonians are dependent on the state and its leaders.

Take away the dependency and Anti Macedonian propaganda

Longing and appreciation for what you lost kicks in.

The most likely group of people to begin a movement should be nationalists, wanting a nation.

Starting from scratch, a clean slate to build a real nation, baggage left behind.

Being the opposition/insurgency suits us.

The best thing that can happen for a future Macedonia is to start over, FYROM has to die.

[Phoenix]

It is a slippery slope, agreed. But supporting and encouraging faux patriotism has been our slippery slope for 25 years, and it has brought us to the point where the ventilator is the "Macedonian" flag with out question really. You can't save Macedonia with a fake movement, even if it denies Zaev and the Albanians today, that same movement will sell Macedonia out in some other way in short time, because the core is broken and anti Macedonian. You are only delaying the inevitable.

By reinforcing faux patriotism and letting them think they are "winning" you are guaranteeing that a real movement will never happen (not enough oxygen).

You need to take the moral and ideological high ground and hope to attract a movement from there, otherwise its a choice between the fire or the frying pan.

Macedonians have put 99 nails out of 100 in the coffin, and we are freaking out about the last one? As Vangelovski pointed out, the OFA was the real "Tirana Platform", our faux patriotism has basically left the OFA off the table, if the Tirana platform is worth a revolt why not the OFA? Why is this the straw that broke the camels back?

I wish more than anyone that we are seeing the birth of a revolution, but maybe when I see the ventilator being burned along with Albanian flags, and the OFA being ripped to pieces, then I will believe it.

I hurts but I mean this,

The current state of FYROM, needs to die. It needs to collapse, and if Macedonians wish to have a state, a real state for Macedonians, then Macedonia will come back. If Macedonians don't want a state, then what can you or I do about that?

Lets be honest, what has been the value of having a state since 1991? How has the Macedonian identity, people, and culture benefited from having a state?

The state of FYROM has introduced the name FYROM to an entire generation of the world,
it has made a generation of Macedonian children believe in a vassal flag and think our real flag is "propaganda".
It has provided a meager life for the majority of Macedonians.
It has embarrassed Macedonians worldwide on countless occasions.
It has as an official state made compromising statements about our identity and history.
Our language, religion and customs have been altered or forgotten
Our people have been brainwashed, and demoralized.
National wealth plundered.



If the state of FYROM was a person/individual we would want them hung for treachery against Macedonians. So, I ask again, what are we trying to save here?

Gocka,

I think nations travel along a path in a form of linear progression...from a starting point, somewhere in history, following a procession of road markers that are attained and then passed...this continues until some eventual 'end point' terminates the journey...I believe this is what happens with every civilisation, empire or nation state...there's no other journey than on this path.

For you to argue that we can remove ourselves from this linear path and somehow return to another starting point, in some reboot, cyclic order of things, just doesn't make sense TO ME...???

The minute Zaev is in charge the closer Macedonia's existential clock ticks over to midnight.
You guys can continue to argue over the validity and the ambition of the protest movement against Zaev, it's genesis or it's stamina but I would take that guy in the ustasha shirt, the violence in parliament, the hooded 'thugs' and the beaters of women every day of the week if it was to keep Zaev away from the levers of power.

Zaev would be the last man on the planet that I would entrust with even a 6 month tenure in charge of Macedonia and I certainly don't see any possibility that any of his gifts, so generously offered to the shiptari could be ever taken back.

[Gocka]

LOL I thought I was the pessimist.

I just don't see it that way. For me Macedonia is so much more than the Shiptar problem.

I also don't believe its a linear path. Macedonia didn't exist as a sovereign state for how long? The Romans, Byzantines, Turks, Serbs, and yet here we are.

You don't need a state to have an identity, to have a purpose.

To continue your metaphor, a part of that journey that path, can include being stateless, Macedonians don't all just die if that happens.

If we resign ourselves to

" would take that guy in the ustasha shirt, the violence in parliament, the hooded 'thugs' and the beaters of women every day of the week if it was to keep Zaev away from the levers of power."

Then what is left anyway? And is Zaev that powerful? Zaev wasn't around for the last 25 years of decline, he is merely a fume, by tomorrow, no one will remember his name.

I have faith that we will rise again.

Gocka,

I think nations travel along a path in a form of linear progression...from a starting point, somewhere in history, following a procession of road markers that are attained and then passed...this continues until some eventual 'end point' terminates the journey...I believe this is what happens with every civilisation, empire or nation state...there's no other journey than on this path.

For you to argue that we can remove ourselves from this linear path and somehow return to another starting point, in some reboot, cyclic order of things, just doesn't make sense TO ME...???

The minute Zaev is in charge the closer Macedonia's existential clock ticks over to midnight.
You guys can continue to argue over the validity and the ambition of the protest movement against Zaev, it's genesis or it's stamina but I would take that guy in the ustasha shirt, the violence in parliament, the hooded 'thugs' and the beaters of women every day of the week if it was to keep Zaev away from the levers of power.

Zaev would be the last man on the planet that I would entrust with even a 6 month tenure in charge of Macedonia and I certainly don't see any possibility that any of his gifts, so generously offered to the shiptari could be ever taken back.

[Phoenix]

...You don't need a state to have an identity, to have a purpose.

To continue your metaphor, a part of that journey that path, can include being stateless, Macedonians don't all just die if that happens...

To continue our love affair with Miss Metaphor...

Homelessness in our cities is a huge and growing problem...sure the homeless have some sort of 'identity' but it's largely nameless.
Homeless people are statistically in need of many community services, help and support.

Homeless people are by far one of the most marginalised segments of the community, they invariably have lower social standing, attain lower levels of education, they suffer from greater physical and mental health issues than most other groups in our community...and their death rates are significantly higher when compared to everyone else...

So Macedonian's will die off eventually, if they have no home.

But by all means...LOL away...

[DraganOfStip]

Honestly I admit struggling to understand your logic.

1)Agreed Gruo is corrupt and eating lobster for breakfast whilst we eat lep I cirejne for breaky
2) You agree and I agree, that both Ali and ZZ are corrupt to the teeth whilst they smoke cuban cigars for lunch we smoke Boss cigarettes
3) I agree, maybe you disagree - You protested Ivanovs decision to pardon VMRO criminals. I see no logic to this protest considering #1, #2

Maybe you struggle to understand the logic because you're far from here and weren't directly affected by all of these things. Let me create a hypothetical situation for the sake of understanding:

Imagine living in a country where for your entire life all governments have been doing nothing for you and your country but filling their pockets and gotten away with it. A country where your entire life you pay for healthcare and yet when you visit the doctor you have to pay even more in shitty hospitals without basic treatment conditions. Where the only way you can get a decent job is by joining a ruling party and do whatever they say even if you don't agree with it because you'll get fired. Where all media serve propaganda based on party affiliations instead of actual news because (depending on which party they lean to) you only hear what they want you to hear, very often igniting hatred between the people on a daily basis for the sake of scoring a political point. Where the common folk are being divided into "patriots"and "traitors" based on whether they're sympathetic or critical to a certain party, and then they're unleashed to one another when the party needs it. Where most state institutions are paralyzed when you need them because all of their employees are incompetent party soldiers that had to be employed because they attended party rallies and agitated for the party so it had to repay them, and therefore a simple thing like getting a birth certificate can turn into an agonizing nightmare. Where instead of rising the minimum wage and providing better work conditions for the young people so that they don't have to leave ,the country is rising the pensions of people that most likely have a few years of life left. Where your tax money is spent on statues and styrofoam facades with overblown prices, but sick people that can't afford treatment are left to die. Where journalists are only allowed to cover stories that will favor the government or face the best-case scenario of losing their job or the worst-case scenario of being locked up. Where workers unions are tightly connected with the government and instead of fighting for workers rights like everywhere else in the world they just sit in their offices drinking coffee and receive salaries for it, while the workers are working their asses off in long hours for shitty wages suffering mobbing and humiliation from their employers in the process. Where the prosecutors and judges are being placed in position thanks to party affiliation and support, therefore ensuring that hardly anyone will ever win a case against the state. Where your monthly needs and costs exceed your salary. Where when you go to the store your kid knows that he/she has to search for those small,ugly toys because he/she knows you can't afford the pretty ones. Where even simple things like getting your child signed into kindergarten requires "pulling strings" and calling your long forgotten uncle/aunt/cousin in a high place so that can be done... I could go on forever but I think you got the picture.

Now imagine that one day, the people that are running that country are exposed on tape for corruption, mock trials, media control, political persecution, murder cover-up, abuse of power etc etc. Would you not be outraged? Would you not demand justice?
And just when you think justice will finally be served, the president of the country (coincidentally a candidate of the same people caught with their hands in the cookie jar) suddenly decides to pardon them "in the best intentions" and let yet again crimes go unpunished?!
Would you sit at home pretend nothing happened? Or would you not take to the streets saying enough is enough like thousands of people here did?

I'm proud of my participation in the protest. Any Macedonian should be. I'd do it all over again if I had the chance. Only a blind brainwashed fool could stand on the side of the people in the tapped recordings.

Is it more clear to you now? Do you see the logic now?
I have literally done my best to explain this for you, and if you still don't understand then I'm afraid I can't help you. I give up.

[Pelagonija]

Maybe you struggle to understand the logic because you're far from here and weren't directly affected by all of these things. Let me create a hypothetical situation for the sake of understanding:

Imagine living in a country where for your entire life all governments have been doing nothing for you and your country but filling their pockets and gotten away with it. A country where your entire life you pay for healthcare and yet when you visit the doctor you have to pay even more in shitty hospitals without basic treatment conditions. Where the only way you can get a decent job is by joining a ruling party and do whatever they say even if you don't agree with it because you'll get fired. Where all media serve propaganda based on party affiliations instead of actual news because (depending on which party they lean to) you only hear what they want you to hear, very often igniting hatred between the people on a daily basis for the sake of scoring a political point. Where the common folk are being divided into "patriots"and "traitors" based on whether they're sympathetic or critical to a certain party, and then they're unleashed to one another when the party needs it. Where most state institutions are paralyzed when you need them because all of their employees are incompetent party soldiers that had to be employed because they attended party rallies and agitated for the party so it had to repay them, and therefore a simple thing like getting a birth certificate can turn into an agonizing nightmare. Where instead of rising the minimum wage and providing better work conditions for the young people so that they don't have to leave ,the country is rising the pensions of people that most likely have a few years of life left. Where your tax money is spent on statues and styrofoam facades with overblown prices, but sick people that can't afford treatment are left to die. Where journalists are only allowed to cover stories that will favor the government or face the best-case scenario of losing their job or the worst-case scenario of being locked up. Where workers unions are tightly connected with the government and instead of fighting for workers rights like everywhere else in the world they just sit in their offices drinking coffee and receive salaries for it, while the workers are working their asses off in long hours for shitty wages suffering mobbing and humiliation from their employers in the process. Where the prosecutors and judges are being placed in position thanks to party affiliation and support, therefore ensuring that hardly anyone will ever win a case against the state. Where your monthly needs and costs exceed your salary. Where when you go to the store your kid knows that he/she has to search for those small,ugly toys because he/she knows you can't afford the pretty ones. Where even simple things like getting your child signed into kindergarten requires "pulling strings" and calling your long forgotten uncle/aunt/cousin in a high place so that can be done... I could go on forever but I think you got the picture.

Now imagine that one day, the people that are running that country are exposed on tape for corruption, mock trials, media control, political persecution, murder cover-up, abuse of power etc etc.
Would you not be outraged? Would you not demand justice?
And just when you think justice will finally be served, the president of the country (coincidentally a candidate of the same people caught with their hands in the cookie jar) suddenly decides to pardon them "in the best intentions" and let yet again crimes go unpunished?!
Would you sit at home pretend nothing happened? Or would you not take to the streets saying enough is enough like thousands of people here did?

I'm proud of my participation in the protest. Any Macedonian should be. I'd do it all over again if I had the chance. Only a blind brainwashed fool could stand on the side of the people in the tapped recordings.

Is it more clear to you now? Do you see the logic now?
I have literally done my best to explain this for you, and if you still don't understand then I'm afraid I can't help you. I give up.

1) I agree with you in regards to the system, it's insanity and I have experience some of it on my trips to ROM..
2)Understand you exactly, just don't agree that you achieved anything by protesting.
3) If the protests were about overthrowing the entire system then I would hundred percent % morally support it. For me all the politicians are corrupt hence replacing one whore with a bigger whore ain't going to make life better.. you need to get rid of all the whores.

[DraganOfStip]

Understand you exactly, just don't agree that you achieved anything by protesting.

The mass protests led to increased international pressure that eventually made Ivanov revoke the amnesty.
So I couldn't disagree more that the protests didn't achieve anything.

If the protests were about overthrowing the entire system then I would hundred percent % morally support it.

The protests were about criminals facing justice instead of being pardoned. If you do not 100% support this, then you have an issue with your morals.

For me all the politicians are corrupt hence replacing one whore with a bigger whore ain't going to make life better.. you need to get rid of all the whores.

I agree that all politicians are corrupt, but if we get rid of all of them then who would run the country?
What we need to get rid of is DPMNE and SDSM and give a chance to someone else, at the same time sending a message what would happen to them if they go down the paths of Grujo and Zajko.