Macedonians Storm Parliament

[DraganOfStip]

1) Vote for whoever though none of the above.

Finally something we agree on.

2) You don't understand the point.. I'm asking you why should Gruo be worried about Gail and not Ali or ZZ..?

Previously I thought Gail is an anagram for Ali that you use for some reason, but now since you used them both in the same sentence I must ask - who's Gail?

3) I'm saying it's people like you who are the problem.. by picking sides..you protest ones corruption and not the other. I'm telling you they are all equally corrupt

No,that's not what you're telling at all. I live in MK my whole life and have therefore suffered the consequences and effects of SDSM's and DPMNE's rule on my own skin, so I have no reason to favor any of them. On the other hand, all we read from you is bla bla ZZ , bla bla SDS, bla bla Tirana Platform (a term coined by DPMNE after their negotiations with DUI collapsed, before that it was the DUI platform, Albanian parties' platform etc etc), bla bla Vice edno evro and loop all over again, like a broken record. But when it comes to Grujo, based on your posts you leave the impression that you approve their scandals and even more, Ivanov's amnesty regarding the same. You protest Zajko's treason but you were nowhere to be seen when the very same Thalat Xhaferi was appointed Defence Minister in Grujo's government, when DPMNE supported the amnesty for Ali & co.'s war crimes, the continued Albanisation that Grujo started, nor their crimes caught on tape!
So if there's someone picking sides, it's definitely not me.

you remind me of the lesbian of Damascus, white male in the us pretending to be a lesbian in syria spewing fake leftist crap.

I'm not familiar with the term.

Man up, if you really want to save mkd get urself a Sheila and breed., have 3 or 4 kids.. that is if you really live in ROM.. Admin your a commi end of story.

Haha, that's actually so funny that I won't even get mad
It only shows how much you suck at evaluating characters.

[Pelagonija]

Finally something we agree on.


Previously I thought Gail is an anagram for Ali that you use for some reason, but now since you used them both in the same sentence I must ask - who's Gail?


No,that's not what you're telling at all.I live in MK my whole life and have therefore suffered the consequences and effects of SDSM's and DPMNE's rule on my own skin, so I have no reason to favor any of them. On the other hand, all we read from you is bla bla ZZ , bla bla SDS, bla bla Tirana Platform (a term coined by DPMNE after their negotiations with DUI collapsed, before that it was the DUI platform, Albanian parties' platform etc etc), bla bla Vice edno evro and loop all over again, like a broken record. But when it comes to Grujo, based on your posts you leave the impression that you approve their scandals and even more, Ivanov's amnesty regarding the same.
So if there's someone picking sides, it's definitely not me.


I'm not familiar with the term.


Haha, that's actually so funny that I won't even get mad


It only shows how much you suck at evaluating characters.

So not to confuse you, I will rephrase the question for you.

1) Why should Gruo be worried about going to PRISON? and not Ali Ahmeti or Zoran Zaev..

Simple question.. answer this and I'll stop pestering u with my "ultra pro VMRO propaganda"

[DraganOfStip]

1) Why should Gruo be worried about going to PRISON? and not Ali Ahmeti or Zoran Zaev..
Simple question..

Because there's enough material in the wiretapped recordings to put him away for a very long time. Simple question - simple answer.

Ali Vojvoda has been amnestied for his war crimes and the recordings where he and his party are involved with DPMNE's schemes are probably kept in a secure location by Zajko to serve as bargaining tool with him. As long as he and Zajko are partners, he has nothing to worry about.

Regarding Zajko himself, his hopes rely on changing the Public Prosecutor with his own pawn and also the "inadequate" judges with obedient ones in order to avoid "Gail" for the bribe case once he assumes power. You know, just like Grujo did.

Hope that wasn't too complicated for you, you seem to have the tendency not to comprehend answers for some reason.
I'm thinking about replying to you in Morse code or sign language if it helps you understand what I'm saying better.

[Albo]

Rubbish. What business do ethnic Albanians have demanding a "comprehensive debate on the flag, anthem and coat of arms in order for state symbols to reflect multiethnicity social and ethnic equality"? So the anthem should be part Macedonian, part Albanian? Or also part Vlach, part Turkish, part Roma, etc? Idiotic. The coat of arms? Here, I will make a "multi-ethnic" suggestion:




We would only expect that of citizens who respect the national identity of the country in which they live.

Do you believe it should be mandatory for all citizens in Macedonia to learn Macedonian?

Having a debate about the anthem and symbols is far from actually demanding a change...

If we are to build a Macedonia where everyone feels equally part of the state then maybe a discussion needs to take place.. you never know we might come to some conclusion that we don't need to change anything or maybe change 1 element.. or add an element.. I don't know.. but concensus can't be a bad thing...

As for my views on all citizens learning Macedonian..
Yes they all have, do, and will continue to learn Macedonian in the future as they have since Yugoslavia,

Albanains aren't Macedonophobes.. we don't fear any language..most Abanians speak 3-4 languages .. we just obviously prefer to speak and learn in our mother tongue in our ancestral lands!

[DraganOfStip]

Having a debate about the anthem and symbols is far from actually demanding a change...

Then why would you have a debate in the first place? What would be it's purpose?

If we are to build a Macedonia where everyone feels equally part of the state then maybe a discussion needs to take place...

If you live here, own a Macedonian ID and passport, pay your taxes etc then you automatically are a part of the state, whether you feel like it or not.

As for my views on all citizens learning Macedonian..
Yes they all have, do, and will continue to learn Macedonian in the future as they have since Yugoslavia

Tell that to Ali Vojvoda who hasn't spoken a single Macedonian word since 2001.

[vicsinad]

Video of the intercepted arsenal:

http://www.blic.rs/vesti/drustvo/ekskluzivno-vba-zaustavila-isporuku-arsenala-oruzja-za-albance-u-makedoniji/v1r4elk

[Tomche Makedonche]

we just obviously prefer to speak and learn in our mother tongue in our ancestral lands!

Interesting, so by this are we to understand that Albanians consider the entire territory of RoMacedonia as their ancestral lands?, I.e. Is Mariovo considered Albanian ancestral lands?

[Albo]

For those who want to hear more of an eyewitness accont from a Macedonian Journalist Natasha Stojanovska and a sdsm MP Lupco Nikolovski on what occured during the raid on the parliament, also the full interview of the security officer who saved Ziadin Sela.. from 20:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01fC90hDr3Y&spfreload=10

===================

Then why would you have a debate in the first place? What would be it's purpose?

Well maybe it will help in creating more understanding and unity through dialog to address the concerns of both main communities.

If you live here, own a Macedonian ID and passport, pay your taxes etc then you automatically are a part of the state, whether you feel like it or not.

Yes.. but being part of the state because you have no other choice and weren't asked and being part of the state whole heartedly are two different things.. this is what's needs to be built.. if you want Albanians to be more loyal to the state they need to feel more part of it.. that's the whole idea of the FA..

Unfortunately to many Macedonians making Albanains more part of the state is seen as a threat.. they would much rather see them be marginalized, uneducated goat herders who migrate in waves than an integral part of m Macedonian moving forward.

Tell that to Ali Vojvoda who hasn't spoken a single Macedonian word since 2001.

Trust me in the last person who wants to defend Ahmeti..
He has said that his Macedonian isn't great and would rather use a translator than be teased or misinterpreted using Macedonian..

He has spoken Macedonia here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zifWBRq8rgE&spfreload=10

[vicsinad]

Basically, what I think I’m hearing, is rather than capitalising on the current momentum within the Macedonian populace, it is proposed that we let this momentum subside and disperse the current movement to allow Zajko and his Albanian coalition take control of the assembly and commence, what I can only assume people think to be the process of ridding Macedonia of its corruption.

Who do you think you're hearing this from and why? People haven't done anything substantial to stop the corruption for the past quarter of a century, I doubt anyone is going to do anything to stop it if Zaev gets power.

I generally think it is easier to get Macedonians to rally against Albanians than it is to rally against corruption and/or bad government. But because the political fight in Macedonia is not really against any of those and is rather about what personal benefits an individual will see if SDSM is in power or if DPMNE stays in power, I don't see SDSM supporters joining what they perceive is a DPMNE controlled movement. For them to join, I think three things need to happen:

1) some sort of soul-shocking armed Albanian incident;
2) DPMNE supporters to distances the movement from the party (eg., the message "No to Tirana Platform, no to VMRO, no to SDSM, Yes za Makedonija");
3) SDSM supporters to recognize that the Tirana Platform is not just "pie in the sky" wishful political thinking AND that rule under Zaev would be no different for the people than rule has been under Gruevski.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see point 1 as being the most likely of the three to happen. I see point 2 happening before point 3, unless any Albanian action is so big and dramatic that most of the people feel as if 2001 is here. If the Albanians are smart, they'd remain peaceful. But assuming that this shipment of arms that was recently intercepted was intended to Albanian political parties and was intended for an armed Albanian insurrection, I think they may have overestimated their hand.

Regardless, whether or not there are new elections, I see 5 potential outcomes:

1) indefinite parallel institutions, as you and Gocka have suggested;
2) war (likely between Macedonians and Albanians, but potentially between Macedonians and Macedonians);
3) Gruevski takes power;
4) Zaev takes power;
5) a third Macedonian option arises.

The last outcome is most desired and least likely. It doesn't mean we shouldn't work toward it; I agree that 100% that's where our efforts should be. But I still see it as the least likely outcome.

Outcome 1 and 2 are probably the most likely outcomes, and the least desirable in my opinion for many reasons.

Option 3, with Gruevski in power, there's subtle Albanianization and comes in small waves. An UCK statue there; a few signs in Albanian language here; change Albanian street names there; schools where Macedonian isn't taught; etc. And we'd eventually get to the same Albanianization that could happen under Zaev, but without fierce opposition to either the Albanianization or corruption, as evidenced by the past decade of no fierce opposition to either of those. It's a long-term yet high risk.

Option 4, Zaev, is a short-term high risk. There is the very real potential for the Albanian language to be implemented as a second official language nationwide and the change of our name on the international stage, at minimum, would be the two biggest/soonest changes. Maybe it is naive thinking, but I believe that more nashi will react more harshly to such sudden and powerful changes regarding the Albanian issue and the name issue than to the subtle changes by a Gruevski regime. For example, DPMNE supporters would already be in opposition, and you'll get many more SDSM supporters than you would get in the current movement. Hence, I think Zaev's rule would be short because the only way he can survive a Macedonian onslaught is to break with the Albanian political parties main wishes; but if he does that, he loses a coalition. In the meantime, either a 3rd party candidate could pop up or a different DPMNE candidate who is less tainted, and probably with that a new SDSM candidate will be needed.

But, as I said, it's a high-risk option in the short term. With Gruevski, there is more time for an anti-Albanianization movement that's more unified to sprout, but given that it's been going on for a decade already with no movement that's not party-based or driven, I don't see it happening. I see the current moving fizzling away once he's back in power and then the same old political struggle between SDSM and DPMNE along with the subtle Albanianization.

I think my main difference with your reasoning is when and under what circumstances the people would be more likely to unify against Albanianization. But I'm completely in agreement that we should 100% be doing everything that we can do right now to make it happen.

[DraganOfStip]

Well maybe it will help in creating more understanding and unity through dialog to address the concerns of both main communities.

And how is a discussion over the symbols or anthem going to address the concerns of both main communities? The general concerns in Macedonia are the poverty, low living standard, disfunctional institutions, high corruption and clientelism, disastrous healthcare etc etc...The anthem and the symbols have nothing to do with these things, how will discussing them fix any of this?

[Tomche Makedonche]

I think my main difference with your reasoning is when and under what circumstances the people would be more likely to unify against Albanianization.

I think this is an accurate assessment of our current impasse

I understand your points Vic, and they are not without validity. All options carry with them inherent risks, but just to clarify, I've never once believed we weren't ultimately striving to reach the same end goal.

[vicsinad]

I've never once believed we weren't ultimately striving to reach the same end goal.

Oh, I believe that. I think we are all just frustrated, both with what's going on over there and with what we can/can't do from afar.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Yes, frustrated would be the diplomatic way of putting it...

[Pelagonija]

Because there's enough material in the wiretapped recordings to put him away for a very long time. Simple question - simple answer.

Ali Vojvoda has been amnestied for his war crimes and the recordings where he and his party are involved with DPMNE's schemes are probably kept in a secure location by Zajko to serve as bargaining tool with him. As long as he and Zajko are partners, he has nothing to worry about.

Regarding Zajko himself, his hopes rely on changing the Public Prosecutor with his own pawn and also the "inadequate" judges with obedient ones in order to avoid "Gail" for the bribe case once he assumes power. You know, just like Grujo did.

Hope that wasn't too complicated for you, you seem to have the tendency not to comprehend answers for some reason.
I'm thinking about replying to you in Morse code or sign language if it helps you understand what I'm saying better.

Honestly I admit struggling to understand your logic.

1)Agreed Gruo is corrupt and eating lobster for breakfast whilst we eat lep I cirejne for breaky
2) You agree and I agree, that both Ali and ZZ are corrupt to the teeth whilst they smoke cuban cigars for lunch we smoke Boss cigarettes
3) I agree, maybe you disagree - You protested Ivanovs decision to pardon VMRO criminals. I see no logic to this protest considering #1, #2 hence you logistically took sides, the root cause in "my opinion" is the people who take sides in this artificial battle. We always blame everyone else for our woes, eg Gruo, ZZ, BC etc etc. To me the biggest culprits are the apathetic modern Macedonians and their pathetic post 1991 partisan politics.. I see this in my cousins in MKD too, ovaj necinit, tvojot necinit..


I for one am voicing an opinion and have no relevance in the grand scheme of things, having said that the Macedonians should have burnt the parliament down when the smilkovci lakes killings took place.. Not to protest Gruwos lost treasures.

Just saying, it's hard to interpret written tone.. please don't get emo on me.

[Vangelovski]

Albo, you're such a wanker. I've been glossing over your shit on here and I really don't know what purpose you serve on this forum.

There are literally hundreds of millions of people around the world that fall into some sort of minority category within the countries they live. We're all doing just fine. The reason that you don't 'feel' like you're a part of Macedonia is because you don't want to be. But there is an easy remedy for that. Just pack up and leave. That's what normal people do when they don't like the conditions in the country they live in. They migrate.

Albanians are lucky that they have found Macedonians at a point in time where (for one reason or another) the men have grown female organs (and worse yet, are trying to justify doing so). The Albanianisation of Macedonia is nothing more than an immoral usurpation of power from the indigenous (Macedonian) nation by a foreign (Albanian) nation. Nothing more. You've been given far too long a leash on here to spread your nonsensical propaganda.