Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Phoenix]

I'm not assuming Macedonians are dumb sheep. I'm pointing out what I think is obvious, which is that the political parties were the drivers of these movements

...and you missed the point...again.

Your paint throwing example was petty party politics from your side...this is bigger and completely alien to you..obviously.

[vicsinad]

If you can't see the difference between the meaningless act of wankers throwing paint filled condoms around Skopje and the rise of tyranny and selling the country out to the highest bidder you're clearly delusional and in need of professional help...but then again it was Zaev and Sekerinska front and centre of that disgraceful performance and I know the soft spot that you have for them both...

...keep up the persona of the retarded apologist, or just get your head out of your arse and look beyond petty party affiliations...

Keep it coming.

[vicsinad]

...and you missed the point...again.

Your paint throwing example was petty party politics from your side...this is bigger and completely alien to you..obviously.

Of course. I'm a delusional, retarded moron who needs professional help. What else do you expect from me?

[vicsinad]

...and you missed the point...again.

I'll just quote someone who is less moronic and delusional than me on their beliefs about "missing points":

Vic, thanks for pointing out that Gocka's point didn't point everyone in the right direction, or that maybe he missed the point along with everyone else.

The point being, don't point fingers at everyone else if you believe that the point was lost on all except you.

The interesting thing about points, although they can be quite sharp or tapering to add essence to a discussion, a point is also a 3D location in space that can be the building block or the termination of an idea.

Do you get my point, if not the discussion is truly pointless.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7488

[Gocka]

Phoinex,

You mentioned something about peoples real political ties being just beneath the surface. Its a little ironic, because honestly I can say with out a doubt, that no one in this conversation is a closet SDSM supporter, in fact the only closet supporters of any party that I see here, are closet DPMNE supporters. If you are referring to Vicsinad, and Dragan, or even me, I am 100% certain none of us support SDSM in any way shape or form. While it is pretty obvious that a few other members are sympathetic to DPMNE, at least by default.

What we are arguing about here is basically whether or not the protests are genuine revolts, or whether they are party affiliated. I'm sorry but from where I am standing it is clear and with out doubt that both the colored protests, and the latest "right" protests are nothing more than hardcore party supporters and paid agitators. They do the organizing they lead, yes other people latch on eventually but the core is always rotten and because of that, they are not genuine and they will never amount to anything.

Dragan gave us a perfect example back when the colored protests were going on He went to a local event in Shtip, thinking it was a anti government, anti corruption rally, when he go there what he saw was SDSM speakers, and leaders taking over the whole rally, and most people were fine or indifferent to that.

I had too break up fights in my own freaking house this past weekend between family and friends who were at each others throats screaming you are brainwashed at each other. 6000 miles away and Macedonians are still stuck in there party politics, you think its any different on the ground in ROM?

This whole debacle has been very eye opening. It has showed me that we are way to focused on Albanians and their agenda You think I'm to focused on nuances, I think you are too focused on Albanians. Everything in Macedonia doesn't revolve around Albanians. As bad as everything looks with the treacherous Tirana platform, what's more alarming as that Macedonians don't see the great Macedonian divide that is happening. Albanians aren't the biggest threat if Macedonians start killing each other.

You are focused on the nuances of statehood, while you ignore that with out a people, you have no state. What is the point of a state if the people who live in it want to kill each other and cant look past petty party affiliations? Do you realize the Albanians are going to take down Macedonia with out firing a shot, by getting Macedonians to divide themselves. If you really want to repel Albanian aggression, you need Macedonian unity and you need them to transcend their party affiliations. Favoring DPMNE because they seem less treacherous than SDSM is not a long term solution, its not even a short term solution.

You are furthering the divide by trying to attach political affiliations where there are none, you are falling right into the Albanian trap while thinking you are standing up to it.

Vicsinad is not a moron, nor demented nor a SDSM supporter. He wants to be rid of Albanian aggression as much as you, what you fail to move beyond is that we don't think your approach is healthy or productive. Its not that any of us think its okay for SDSM to implement the Tirana platform. You have to understand that these issues are more complicated than the knee jerk reaction to just burst out into violence.

All of you get it through your heads, this is not a peoples movement, nor have been any of the movements in ROM. All you people are doing is further pushing people into one camp or the other, SDSM or DPMNE, THAT IS WHAT GOT US HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE REMEMBER?

[Rogi]

Gocka,

Do you recognise that you are not the authority on whether this is a peoples movement? Purely because that is something personal and known only by those people in that movement; you don't know what is in their hearts and minds, regardless of whether they lean to one party or another or neither.

Given that, do you accept that what you write is then just your opinion?

So, it could therefore well be the genesis of a peoples movement. You could be wrong. Right?

[Rogi]

As for movements, I would say the "Don't you FYROM me" movement and campaign is an example of a movement in ROM which was an apolitical national movement.

[vicsinad]

Rogi:

This is what you had said:

But to Phoenix's point earlier, the protest (the two months of peaceful protest and the one day of violent protest) is a reaction, a revolt, the conversation should be about the cause of that revolt.

I offered my thoughts about what the cause of this movement was. I never said anything about the majority of the people participating being party members. But you wanted to have a conversation of what the causes were, and I've said -- in many ways in this topic -- that the political power-struggles between DPMNE and SDSM are the causes. You may disagree with it, but if you want to have a conversation about what the causes are, then by all means, have a conversation.

Should I have to preface all the words that I type with: "this is opinion" and "this is fact" and then you do the same? Or do you want to discuss what the cause(s) of the supposed revolt could be? Is it Albanianization? Is it corruption? I say no to both. I'm not going to apologize for not prefacing my thoughts with "in my view" every time I type a response.

But please, show me something to the contrary that the cause of the recent events -- or the Colorful Revolution, for that matter -- were something other than party politics. Whether it's facts, reasoning, observations.

[Gocka]

I was going to answer but Vicsinad kind of did it for me. Isn't it redundant given we are on an internet forum where most of what is discussed is someone's opinion, based on observation? Short of going to every person and asking them why they are protesting I don't think we could live up to your apparent standard.

I could be wrong just as much as you or anyone else commenting who is also giving their opinion? I really don't see the point of this comment to be frank?

Gocka,

Do you recognise that you are not the authority on whether this is a peoples movement?

Given that, do you accept that what you write is then just your opinion?

So, it could therefore well be the genesis of a peoples movement. You could be wrong. Right?

This portion of your comment I find relevant, and I think you are missing something very important.

"Whether they lean to one party or another" This is the problem Rogi, right there that is the crux of everything. As long as people "lean" toward one party or another, without realizing that the real enemies are those two parties, then how can anything ever change? It's right there in everyone's face but most don't see it. The parties DPMNE and SDSM are constantly inserting themselves in the middle of what is in peoples hearts and minds, and making the entire debate, the entire struggle about whether you lean to one party or the other.

IF, if you remove that "lean" then there is nothing standing in between all Macedonians, to band together and fight, even violently if needed, against corruption, albaniziation, name issues, flag, whatever it may be. This is the point I have been trying to drive home from page 1. If you let, one party or the other hijack the agenda, the conversation, and split people up between SDSM and DPMNE then we ALL lose.

Now if you want to have a debate about the merits of this "peoples" movement, lets do that.

Since I am now being held to such a high standard, provide me with some proof that the movement is grass roots, and uninfluenced by DPMNE, and I will provide proof that it is, does that sound fair?

Purely because that is something personal and known only by those people in that movement; you don't know what is in their hearts and minds, regardless of whether they lean to one party or another or neither.

[vicsinad]

"Whether they lean to one party or another" This is the problem Rogi, right there that is the crux of everything. As long as people "lean" toward one party or another, without realizing that the real enemies are those two parties, then how can anything ever change? It's right there in everyone's face but most don't see it. The parties DPMNE and SDSM are constantly inserting themselves in the middle of what is in peoples hearts and minds, and making the entire debate, the entire struggle about whether you lean to one party or the other.

IF, if you remove that "lean" then there is nothing standing in between all Macedonians, to band together and fight, even violently if needed, against corruption, albaniziation, name issues, flag, whatever it may be. This is the point I have been trying to drive home from page 1. If you let, one party or the other hijack the agenda, the conversation, and split people up between SDSM and DPMNE then we ALL lose.

Well said. As you said before, this is not the movement that the majority of the Macedonians in the Diaspora, or at least on this forum, have claimed to be waiting for or wanting. Meaning that we shouldn't read into it something other than it is.

[DraganOfStip]

I'm sick of reading that this has the hallmarks of some VMRO-DPMNE plot or that DUI has been complicit or other rubbish that's the figment of the imagination of people with their heads buried in their arse...

So far, what is known is this:
1) The parliament bullies can be seen on video shaking hands, hugging and greeting DPMNE MP's (you even have a still image of a masked vigilante hugging a DPMNE minister in the government!);
2) Number of DPMNE MP's attacked or injured - 0!;
3) From what is available from video, many DPMNE members/sympathizers (most of which with criminal records) can be seen in the front rows of the mob (Vic even came out with specific names). One face I recognized immediately is Bate Gele - the older guy right next to the person that pulled Rada's hair, he is a Grujo fanatic from my hometown that has his flat completely covered in DPMNE flags and even has a tattoo of Grujo (!) on his back;
4) The injured journalists/reporters are only from the critic media, despite most pro-government media having their teams also in the very same room;
5) The policemen that were assigned as protection to the parliament not only did they not do their job, but one can say that they simply allowed the crowd to waltz into the parliament, some can even be seen greeting them and smoking cigarettes as if they were on their breaks;
6) Even the special task force (under the control of a DPMNE official) that was sent to restore order came to the rescue almost 1 and a half hrs after the incident began. Coincidence?;
7) The very same DPMNE official couldn't be reached by the Minister of Interior (which he is directly subordinated to) after 20:00 h, but yet he could be reached by Grujo in order to be briefed;
8) One of the arrested suspects for the attacks is an employee in the State Security, an institution that is suspected for the wiretapping and the subsequent attempts of cover-up ,and is coincidentally controlled by... wait for it...another DPMNE official.

After all of the above, if you still think that DPMNE being behind this is still "rubbish that's the figment of the imagination of people with their heads buried in their arse", then I'm afraid you can't see the forest from all the trees blocking your view my friend.

...we don't know why people chose to wear balaclavas...

Uhm, so that they couldn't be recognized? Just a guess...

we don't even know if they caused anybody harm...

You can't be serious? Did you watch any of the videos at all?

It's one thing to have a soft spot for Zaev and Sekerinska...

...but then again it was Zaev and Sekerinska front and centre of that disgraceful performance and I know the soft spot that you have for them both...

When I stated you're one of those people that labels other people based on their anti-this or anti-that posts, you were quick to say I was only making assumptions.
Well, with the above statements you just confirmed that. Vic's posts don't make him a "Zaevec", just as yours and Pelagonia's posts that are clearly against Zaev doesn't make you DPMNE sympathizers.

In the end, I find all this DPMNE/SDSM arguing pointless because both of these criminal organizations have proven to be doing more harm than good to Macedonia and whoever creates the new government - we're f**ed. Both of these criminal organizations have accepted the Albanian demands with the only difference being Grujo's refusal to extend the mandate of SJO because he doesn't want to go to jail. Had DUI dropped that demand, we'd be seeing the same stuff from DPMNE, only served with sugar and cream by their propaganda machinery like when appointing the UCK commander for Defence Minister or when passing the amnesty for the UCK war crimes in 2001 to just name a few.
Point being - THERE IS NO LESSER EVIL! Wake the fark up!

[Gocka]

I also want to clear up another what I think is misunderstanding. When I say this "movement" is DPMNE based, that doesn't necessarily mean, or have to mean that DPMNE officials are actually organizing or directing any of it.

If the "movement" is made up of DPMNE supporters, or should I say, people who think DPMNE and Grujo should be back in power, if that is their solution to the problems that they see in front of them. Then that movement is not a pro Macedonian movement.

DPMNE has been just as anti Macedonian as SDSM, and any movement to overthrow SDSM, needs to understand that, other wise its out of the pan and into the fire.

I have nothing against Zaev getting the shit kicked out of him, but not because I want Grujo to take over instead. Using violence to install Grujo back in power amounts to nothing but the same.

What we need is 1.5 million more Dragans in ROM who come to the realization that there is no lesser evil.

Dragan I implore you to make that case to every Macedonian you can, that there is no lesser evil, and that if you really want a free and prosperous Macedonia, we need to rid the country of all these corrupt traitors.

[Pelagonija]

So far, what is known is this:
1) The parliament bullies can be seen on video shaking hands, hugging and greeting DPMNE MP's (you even have a still image of a masked vigilante hugging a DPMNE minister in the government!);
2) Number of DPMNE MP's attacked or injured - 0!;
3) From what is available from video, many DPMNE members/sympathizers (most of which with criminal records) can be seen in the front rows of the mob (Vic even came out with specific names). One face I recognized immediately is Bate Gele - the older guy right next to the person that pulled Rada's hair, he is a Grujo fanatic from my hometown that has his flat completely covered in DPMNE flags and even has a tattoo of Grujo (!) on his back;
4) The injured journalists/reporters are only from the critic media, despite most pro-government media having their teams also in the very same room;
5) The policemen that were assigned as protection to the parliament not only did they not do their job, but one can say that they simply allowed the crowd to waltz into the parliament, some can even be seen greeting them and smoking cigarettes as if they were on their breaks;
6) Even the special task force (under the control of a DPMNE official) that was sent to restore order came to the rescue almost 1 and a half hrs after the incident began. Coincidence?;
7) The very same DPMNE official couldn't be reached by the Minister of Interior (which he is directly subordinated to) after 20:00 h, but yet he could be reached by Grujo in order to be briefed;
8) One of the arrested suspects for the attacks is an employee in the State Security, an institution that is suspected for the wiretapping and the subsequent attempts of cover-up ,and is coincidentally controlled by... wait for it...another DPMNE official.

After all of the above, if you still think that DPMNE being behind this is still "rubbish that's the figment of the imagination of people with their heads buried in their arse", then I'm afraid you can't see the forest from all the trees blocking your view my friend.


Uhm, so that they couldn't be recognized? Just a guess...


You can't be serious? Did you watch any of the videos at all?



When I stated you're one of those people that labels other people based on their anti-this or anti-that posts, you were quick to say I was only making assumptions.
Well, with the above statements you just confirmed that. Vic's posts don't make him a "Zaevec", just as yours and Pelagonia's posts that are clearly against Zaev doesn't make you DPMNE sympathizers.

In the end, I find all this DPMNE/SDSM arguing pointless because both of these criminal organizations have proven to be doing more harm than good to Macedonia and whoever creates the new government - we're f**ed. Both of these criminal organizations have accepted the Albanian demands with the only difference being Grujo's refusal to extend the mandate of SJO because he doesn't want to go to jail. Had DUI dropped that demand, we'd be seeing the same stuff from DPMNE, only served with sugar and cream by their propaganda machinery like when appointing the UCK commander for Defence Minister or when passing the amnesty for the UCK war crimes in 2001 to just name a few.
Point being - THERE IS NO LESSER EVIL! Wake the fark up!

My god this is truly insane? DUI, the fascist drug dealing murderers who were in government with VMRO dealing tenders wanted to extend the mandate SJO? as a result Gruo didn't want to go to Gail???? WHAT the fark?? Have you people gone mad with hatred....?? THE FN Math just doesn't add up..

Mate answer the following:

1) Why didn't Zaev release any recordings on ex UCK DUI?
2) Are you insinuating that DUI is moral and not corrupt??


**This is exactly my point people like Zaev have divided the people based on an artificial pretext and people like you poor petrol on the fire by passively condoning the status quo.

Based on your logic all parties should be afraid of the SJO and should be happy to see the back of it. But your comment states otherwise, that Ahmeti and ZZ are innocent and leads me to believe that SJO is a political tool used to decimate VMRO just for the sake of power lust.. hence if there is no lesser evil then why are you passively supporting one evil over the other?

Does ZZs bratsvo i Edintsvo tendencies appeal to you? You seem to be picking sides and cherry picking facts to back your theories..


Logically who stands to gain the most by driving this narrative? Th Albanians and SDS.. hence this theory doesn't hold water, that is unless all the top brass go to Gail, eg Ali, ZZ and your retarderd former PM

Think logically Dragan..

[Risto the Great]

I think a single event or a number of related events can indeed trigger a movement. Perhaps some of us want to believe this can be the case. So there may simply be an attempt to dilute the significance of any suspicion of political influence existing in this "revolution".

To attack vicsinad for his opinions on the matter is typically Macedonian (and quite frankly, a human condition). His father did have ties to SDSm but I do believe he has independent thought. I also believe Rogi has independent thought notwithstanding what I believe to be his family ties to DPmNE.

Unlike vicsinad, I would not propose letting SDSm have a go just to prove something.

Unlike others, I am not ready to let parts of Macedonia go. Ever.

Unlike others, I find it difficult to believe this is a real revolution building up and waiting to explode. But I do fervently hope so.

Probably like all of us, I am completely unaware of the legality of any of this rubbish. Questions come to mind:

• Is Ivanov constitutionally empowered to stop this government?
• What facts exist to support his decision?
• What facts cloud the decision?

If he is completely within his power to decide this (based on facts), the actions thereafter are illegal in my mind and Macedonians are entitled to feel and vent their rage.

Maybe I missed something on this thread about the points above. Can we revisit this please?

[vicsinad]

Probably like all of us, I am completely unaware of the legality of any of this rubbish. Questions come to mind:

• Is Ivanov constitutionally empowered to stop this government?
• What facts exist to support his decision?
• What facts cloud the decision?

If he is completely within his power to decide this (based on facts), the actions thereafter are illegal in my mind and Macedonians are entitled to feel and vent their rage.

Maybe I missed something on this thread about the points above. Can we revisit this please?

Thanks for getting us back on track.

Here are what I think are the relevant parts of the Constitution regarding giving the mandate and the President's duties:

Article 79
The President of the Republic Macedonia represents the Republic. The president of the Republic is Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Macedonia. The President of the Republic exercises his/her rights and duties on the basis and within the framework of the Constitution and laws.

From Article 81:
Before taking up office, the President of the Republic makes a solemn declaration before the Assembly of his/her commitment to
respect the Constitution and the laws.

Article 84:

The President of the Republic of Macedonia
- nominates a mandator to constitute the
Government of the Republic of Macedonia;
- appoints and dismisses by decree ambassadors a
nd other diplomatic representatives of the
Republic of Macedonia abroad;
- accepts the credentials and letters of recall of foreign diplomatic representatives;
- proposes two judges to sit on the Constitutional Court of the Republic of Macedonia;
- proposes two members of the Republican Judicial Council;
- appoints three members to the Security Council of the Republic of Macedonia;- proposes the
members of the Council for Inter-Ethnic Relations;
- appoints and dismisses other holders of
state and public office determined by the
Constitution and the law;
- grants decorations and honours in accordance with the law;
- grants pardons in accordance with the law; and
- performs other duties determined by the Constitution.

Article 90
The President of the Republic of Macedonia is obliged, within 10
days of the constitution of the Assembly, to entrust the mandate for constituting the Government to a candidate from the party or parties which has/have a majority in the Assembly. Within 20 days from the day of being entrusted with the mandate, the mandator submits a programme to the Assembly and proposes the composition of the Government. The Government is elected by the Assembly on the proposal of the mandator and on the basis of the programme by a majority vote of the total number of Representatives.

Article 90 compels and requires the president to give the mandate to the majority. Ivanov did that for DPMNE; he didn't do it for SDSM. The reasoning he used, I believe, was that he was protecting the republic/constitution from the Tirana Platform. Aside from the political aspect of him not requiring that of DPMNE, I don't see how the actual substance of the Tirana Platform -- as ideas and goals -- violates the Constitution. It essentially amounts to free speech -- despite how much we don't like it. The political parties could say "We hope to change the name of Macedonia to Ilirida", but it essentially amounts to free speech. Article 16 of the Constitution says this:


"The freedom of personal conviction, conscience, thought and public expression of thought is guaranteed. The freedom of speech, public address, public information and the establishment of institutions for public information is guaranteed."

In my mind, the substance of the Tirana Platform -- no matter how offensive and aggressive we find it -- is not enough to deny SDSM the mandate. It's public expression of thought.

I think the Constitution is a little less clear, however, when we have political parties from Macedonia cementing that platform in a foreign country under the auspices of a foreign leader. But as far as I'm aware, the constitution nor Macedonian laws, really address this particular circumstance. The President is head of the Security Council, which "considers issues relating to the security and defence of the Republic." But I'm not aware that the President or Security Council are saying that the security of the Republic of Macedonia is threatened from the outside or inside. There has been no armed action against the state, for example.

Article 8 says:

Anything that is not prohibited by the Constitution or by law is permitted in the Republic of Macedonia.

So is there a law that prohibits political parties from creating and agreeing to an agenda for Macedonian politics in another country, mediated by a foreign leader? I haven't seen one. If there isn't, then I think Ivanov has no constitutional power to withhold the mandate.

One can make the argument that implementation of some of the points in the Tirana Platform will violate the Constitution and jeopardize territorial integrity or sovereignty. One can also argue that Rama's role has amounted to an act of war. But nothing in the Tirana Platform has been implemented, and the President has not acknowledged that Rama is threatening Macedonia with war or etc., so I don't see Constitutional support for Ivanov's actions.

Here's a link to the English version of the constitution:

http://www.wipo.int/edocs/lexdocs/laws/en/mk/mk014en.pdf