Macedonians Storm Parliament

[vicsinad]

Ivanov did say that it was against the Constitution and that forming the platform in a foreign country is punishable under the Criminal Code.

http://sdk.mk/index.php/makedonija/ivanov-ne-go-dava-mandatot-na-zaev-na-sdsm/

„По изборите бевме непријатно изненадени од една платформа од туѓа држава. Содржината на платформата е надвор од уставот и надвор од Охридскиот договор. Со оваа платформа се загрозува сувереноста на државата. Македонија е уценета и нејзината унитарност е загрозена. Разговарање за платформа на туѓа држава е спротивно на Уставот на Македонија и е казниво дело според кривичниот законик. Уставот и совеста не ми даваат право да му дадам мандат на некој што ја руши сувереноста“, изјави Иванов.

("After the elections we were unpleasantly surprised by a platform from a foreign country. The content of the platform is outside the constitution and out of the Ohrid Agreement. With this platform infringes the sovereignty of the state. Macedonia is blackmailed and its unity is threatened. Conversation platform of another state is contrary to the Constitution of Macedonia and is a punishable offense under the Criminal Code. Constitution and conscience do not give me the right to give the mandate to someone who destroys sovereignty, "said Ivanov.)

If we had a copy of the criminal code, we could see what he means.

He also suggests the constitution and his conscience...which suggests to me that the argument that the constitution prevents him from giving the mandate is likely not a strong one.

[vicsinad]

From the criminal code, I found these (if those of you have time want to search through, please do):

High treason
Article 305

A person who, by using force or serious threat, tries to
change the constitutional system of the Republic of Macedonia, or to
bring down the highest state authorities, shall be punished with
imprisonment of at least five years.

I don't think the agenda in the Platform amounts to this, so I don't think Ivanov is talking about this section, though he could be with a looser interpretation.


Endangering the territorial integrity
Article 307

(1)
A person who, by the use of force or serious threat to use force,
attempts to secede a part of the territory of the Republic of Macedonia,
or to annex a part of this territory to some other country, shall be
punished with imprisonment of at least five years.
(2)
A person who, by the use of force or serious threat to use force,
attempts to change the borders of the Republic of Macedonia, shall be
punished with imprisonment of at least three years.

None of this is being suggested by Tirana Platform.

Endangering the independence
Article 308
A citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, who places the
Republic of Macedonia in a position of subordination or dependence in
relation to some other country, shall be punished with imprisonment of
at least five years.

I think this may be the one. The reasoning might go that by meeting with Rama, who is the PM of another state, Macedonia is in a position of subordination or dependence to Albania. An argument could be made that this is what happened, but I think it's a stretch.


Here's the link:

http://www.wipo.int/edocs/lexdocs/laws/en/mk/mk018en.pdf

[Vangelovski]

Ghandi-esque wet leftist dream...

Where's Phoenix and what have you done with him?

[Risto the Great]

Thanks Vic,

I refer to Article 1:

The Republic of Macedonia is a sovereign, independent, democratic and social state.
The sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia is indivisible, inalienable and nontransferable.

If the Tirana platform is understood to be an attack on independence and indivisibility, perhaps there can be an argument for supporting Ivanov's perspective. I think the Tirana platform is precisely that. What do we specifically know about SDSm's agreement with the ethnic Albanian political parties?

I have since read your further responses which end up referring to the same issues.

[vicsinad]

Regarding this:

Endangering the independence
Article 308
A citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, who places the
Republic of Macedonia in a position of subordination or dependence in
relation to some other country, shall be punished with imprisonment of
at least five years.

When I say it's a stretch, I mean it's a stretch the Ivanov can refuse giving SDSM the mandate based on this language. No one has been charged or convicted of placing Macedonia in a position of subordination to Albania. Now if Macedonian prosecutors were to bring charges, he may have a case. Nowhere does it say, though, that the mandate should not be given to the majority simply because the President claims Article 308 is being violated but not doing anything judicially to enforce that claim.

Further, to actually prove subordination might be really difficult in this case. Did the Albanian political party leaders from Macedonia put themselves in a subordinate position to Albania by meeting with the PM of Albania? There's a strong case for that. Did they put Macedonia in a position of subordination to Albania? I don't know much about case law in Macedonia, but you'd probably have to demonstrate that the Albanian party leaders are taking orders from Rama, and that might be hard to do, because all of these talking points in the platform were in one or the other parties' agenda prior going to Tirana. Is Zaev putting Macedonia in subordination to Albania by not outright rejecting elements of the platform agreed there? No, because the application of the law in this case by Ivanov is not about the substance of the Platform, but where the platform was formed. Is Zaev putting Macedonia in subordination to Albania by forming a coalition with people who cemented a political platform in Albania? On one hand you could argue that none of these Albanians have been convicted of violating 308, so then no, Zaev is not subordinating Macedonia to Albania. If a case could be made, however, that Zaev is subordinating Macedonia to Albania because of this, then all Albanian political party members (or at least their leaders) would be subject to punishment under this law, and neither DPMNE or SDSM would be able to partner with the individuals.

Though, that is all based on an interpretation of subordination; I don't know if the Macedonian courts have tried cases like this. And again, I don't see how Ivanov can withhold the mandate that he is obliged to give to the parties that form the majority when none of those individuals are even standing trial for violating 308 or any other code. To top it off, as iterated many times, he didn't use this reasoning until after DPMNE failed to secure a coalition with DUI, so it shows me that Ivanov is just trying to devise a legal argument to prevent SDSM from getting power.

[Gocka]

Very level headed and civil commentary. We should have an open and honest debate, not accuse each other of party partisanship and treachery.


What would you propose?

At this very moment, with out a clear counter movement, you would almost have no choice but to let DPMNE deny them a mandate by force, which is just as destructive and divisive as letting SDSM commit suicide.

Unlike vicsinad, I would not propose letting SDSm have a go just to prove something.

That's exactly it, we all hope, and it would be down right cruel to accuse someone like Vicsinad, or others of not genuinely having that hope for a real revolution. But we have to be honest about what we see in front of us right now, latching on to or supporting what might be a self destructive anti Macedonian movement is no better than what SDSM is doing.

The atmosphere is ripe for a real revolution. You had a big portion of the populace disgusted about the corruption, now you have a big portion disgusted about the Albanization, if you can merge these two groups, one spark and it explodes into a real revolution.

Unlike others, I find it difficult to believe this is a real revolution building up and waiting to explode. But I do fervently hope so.

[Gocka]

LMAO No he's fine. He is more of a Che Guvara type, Gandhi was a bitch.

How about contributing something to the discussion, quit creeping, we can all see you in the bushes.

Where's Phoenix and what have you done with him?

[vicsinad]

Thanks Vic,

I refer to Article 1:

If the Tirana platform is understood to be an attack on independence and indivisibility, perhaps there can be an argument for supporting Ivanov's perspective..

A: On one hand, Ivanov claims that the content is outside the constitution. But there's nothing unconstitutional about saying the constitution should change; there could be something unconstitutional about how one goes ahead making that change.

B: On the other hand, Ivanov is primarily saying that it's the "conversation of platforms in a foreign state" (the where and with whom) that is 1) unconstitutional and 2) punishable under code. To these points, he could make a case. But then, if we use this as our threshold, what meetings with foreign officials in foreign countries do and do not count as subordinating Macedonia to another country?

Still, if A and B are both true, which can be big ifs, where does the constitution/laws state that he can refrain from giving a mandate required of him by the constitution to an individual who has not been convicted of any offense, and who has agreed only to joining in a coalition of parties whose leaders were the ones that went to Tirana, but who also are not convicted? Ivanov may have a shot at trying these people in the courts; but it is a stretch to deny a mandate he is obliged to give based on all of this.

[Tomche Makedonche]

I don’t think we are going to get any clarity on these matters going down the legal route. The legal basis of both Ivanov and Zaev’s moves can only really be determined by the Constitutional Court, and there will be a number of aspects of law to be considered i.e. the Constitution, the Law of the Assembly, Rules of Procedures of the Assembly, etc.

For example, in respect of Ivanov’s refusal to give the mandate to Zaev, one point that has to be established is whether the constitution provides the President a privilege of choice in issuing the mandate. In Macedonian, the operative word under Article 90 is должен, the English version has utilised the word obliged in its translation in respect of its intention, as opposed to say the word obligated. On this basis alone an argument can be made on the difference between the use and meaning of the word obliged over obligated, in which it can be argued that obliged infers choice whilst obligated does not. Furthermore under Article 84 in which the roles of the President are detailed, the operative word utilised in respect of his duties regarding the mandator is определува, which the English translation utilises the word nominates, which again infers choice. The decision maker will also need to look beyond the actual wording and consider things such as the intention of the Presidents Roles under Article 84 and Article 90 in the constitution, i.e. what was the intent of Article 90?, what was the intent of having the President issue the mandate?, for what purpose did the Constitution require the mandate to be issued by the President?, obviously there can be arguments presented that the intention and wording of these specific articles infers the President is bestowed a privilege of choice, and if it is considered he has such a privilege, then a legal basis under the Constitution for Ivanov to choose not to issue a mandate to Zajko can been established, and that is even before getting into the reasons or justification of why. Of course opposing arguments can also be made within the same context.

Similarly arguments on the legality of the process that SDS employed in electing a new speaker can also be viewed to fall within the Constitution, Law of the Assembly etc, with opposing arguments having similar foundations.

The only way such matters can actually be determined is through the process noted in the Constitution, which is for them to be referred to the Constitutional Court for deliberation and a decision. However when taking into account recognition of the Constitutional Court’s authority has been readily dismissed these days, like I said, I don’t think we are likely to see any clarity on the legality of these matters at this stage.

I just guess these are the types of things you will likely encounter when a system is collapsing.

[Vangelovski]

Probably like all of us, I am completely unaware of the legality of any of this rubbish.

The legality of anything in Macedonia is irrelevant. Successive Macedonian governments (and most Macedonian individuals) have ignored the constitution and legislative acts whenever it doesn't suit them. There is no rule of law in that country and the very idea is treated as a joke.

They will do whatever they can under the guise of the law and institutional processes to achieve what they want. When even that breaks down they will revert to brute force...exhibit A (storming of Parliament).

[Vangelovski]

LMAO No he's fine. He is more of a Che Guvara type, Gandhi was a bitch.

How about contributing something to the discussion, quit creeping, we can all see you in the bushes.

Just the fact that the words "wet leftist dream" were together in the same sentence made me think he was in some basement being given the pulp fiction treatment while someone had taken over his account.

[Phoenix]

...In the end, I find all this DPMNE/SDSM arguing pointless because both of these criminal organizations have proven to be doing more harm than good to Macedonia and whoever creates the new government - we're f**ed. Both of these criminal organizations have accepted the Albanian demands with the only difference being Grujo's refusal to extend the mandate of SJO because he doesn't want to go to jail. Had DUI dropped that demand, we'd be seeing the same stuff from DPMNE, only served with sugar and cream by their propaganda machinery like when appointing the UCK commander for Defence Minister or when passing the amnesty for the UCK war crimes in 2001 to just name a few.
Point being - THERE IS NO LESSER EVIL! Wake the fark up!

There's one very simple solution in all of this and that's people power.

If you, as a citizen of Macedonia can't be fucked getting out on the streets and protesting...who am I to care, sitting on the other side of the world.
Regardless of what I have to say, or what my best intentions are for you...YOU and other Macedonian's in the Republic are always loathe to take any advice from the diaspora...

It seems to me that many of you here on this forum want to analyse the shit out of the events in parliament, to intellectualise each scene and actor in this drama, like an academic jerk-circle, where theory and reality are two divergent beams of light, never to cross over... it's like you're looking for excuses to remain apathetic to your own plight or to commit to being a slave to party affiliations and then it's the same old shit all over again, in some never ending cyclical nightmare, like the rodent on the wheel, wondering why after all this running he hasn't got anywhere...

Or to make a pop culture reference...it's that scene in 'The Simpsons'...where Lisa is conducting a science experiment to determine who is smarter, a hamster or Bart...and it goes on how the hamster sticks his paw in the electrical socket and gets a shock and NEVER goes near it again, meanwhile Bart continually pokes his finger into the socket, gets an electrical shock each time and NEVER LEARNS FROM IT...Dragan sorry mate, but for the purposes of this illustration, you're Bart.

Dragan you're one of the most defeatist people that has cowered into the MTO, but that's not some lofty attribute that you alone possess, it's a blight seared into the DNA of most Macedonians in the Republic today...always looking for somebody to blame but never willing to do anything for themselves, preferring to be someones compliant little lap dog, to fetch, sit and eat on the orders of the master.

Fine mate, if subservience is your ambition...knock yourself out, you certainly don't have to work hard to achieve it, it doesn't require joining the masses in public places, all it requires is sitting on your arse and doing nothing...shit, you could even achieve the same in any kafana, whinging and whining and achieving the net sum of zero.

I see we don't seem to be able to move on from the gossip of who belted who, masked avengers, puppet masters, selective assaults and the myriad of excuses of why this particular form of people power was impotent.

Meanwhile I'd like to take the approach of a certain theory that espouses:
"...the aim of action should be the largest possible balance of pleasure over pain or the greatest happiness of the greatest number".
That's why I have no issue with skulls being cracked in parliament, don't even care which faction does it...

But don't mind me...you guys continue to take sides, pontificate the rights and wrongs...continue fiddling while Skopje burns...and most of all, just sit there and do nothing...because, after all to use your own words Dragan:

"...In the end, I find all this DPMNE/SDSM arguing pointless because both of these criminal organizations have proven to be doing more harm than good to Macedonia and whoever creates the new government - we're f**ed".

[Gocka]

LOL I've been surprised by a lot of peoples reactions recently, including my own.

I will now interrogate you, just shoot off the answers and you can be on your way if you wish.


Was the storming of the parliament
-a genuine act of popular revolt
-a DPMNE intimidation tactic
-an indirect and misguided pro DPMNE outburst

Should SDSM be allowed to commit treachery and then hope they are punished, or should someone stop them, if so who realistically, not idealistically given that no actual counter force seems to exist other than DPMNE.

Is DPMNE the lesser evil?

Should we call for DPMNE to come back to power in order to prevent SDSM from implementing the Tirana platform?

What is the best way to achieve unity give the current climate, how to we push Macedonians away from their political affiliations?

Do you think at this moment, there is a genuine apolitical pro Macedonian movement in ROM?

What do you see as the most likely outcome in ROM, near term and long term?

Just the fact that the words "wet leftist dream" were together in the same sentence made me think he was in some basement being given the pulp fiction treatment while someone had taken over his account.

[Phoenix]

Where's Phoenix and what have you done with him?

Very good Vangelovski...I knew you had a sense of humour...somewhere.

Surely you can be centre-left and still demand your rights, forcefully if required...?

[Phoenix]

Just the fact that the words "wet leftist dream" were together in the same sentence made me think he was in some basement being given the pulp fiction treatment while someone had taken over his account.

Well done mate, two attempts at humour within the one thread and not too much daylight between the two...good work...

BTW...whats your purification ritual when exposing yourself to scenes of homosexuality and sodomy..you know you'll be going to an infernal place if you don't alter your viewing habits...