Greeks are not Greeks according to Shiptares (Albanians), what you think of article?

[George S.]

I'm surprised amphipolis that you don't know your country's history nor macedonia lumping it as part of turkey.greece was never a nation until 1832.Greece was called geece
from the latin word .greece.Whereas look at old maps and you will see macedonia as a seperate country.Also there are countless things written about macedonia that it was different to the city states.Trying to make them the same ,same race of people,language,is all wrong.Macedonia was never a city state.Also what did the ottomans call that part of country macedonia a sperate country with its people.Its your inability to accept the truth thats what the problem is.

[Risto the Great]

Neither were mine. Was Asia Minor a... nation? Was it a nation called Turkey? Was Macedonia also a nation? Do you also call it Turkey?

1922/3, Turkey was created.
At precisely the same time, there were Macedonians who were Greek nationals.
What else would did you want to know?

[Poligiros]

how is the aegean area the homeland to these non indiginous people merely to displace the existing endopi people.To make it all its greek.A rational thinker will see all this fakery by the greek govt to change the population and present it in another wayThere is no such thing as these people have been living previously in turkey and then they have been shipped out to the aegean area.Just remember who the endopi were certainly not the prosfeges or pontiacs.They don't feel they are macedonians as the greek govt wants trhem to be.The greek govt little experiment hasn't worked as even people are coming to a full realisation that they have been used for political purposes.

George, once again I am not disputing your "endopi" terminology. However, this term also refers to Hellenes of Aegean Macedonia and Hellenic republic in general. When I go back to my village my grandparents are referred to "endopious" due to the fact that we have been locals for AT LEAST hundreds of years in the Halkidiki region (as far as can be confirmed). As far as I am aware, and from evidence in council offices our names, language has been Hellenic. The surrounding villages do have Christian Turkish populations as you call them, most live in the "Nea" or new towns.

Now going back the Ancient Macedonians, I never said they were "Greek" as in today's terms. I am re-iterating what I have read an learned from reputable scholars, the Ancient Macedonians utilised a Hellenic dialect and were probably of Dorian stock. If I get banned for stating what is taught in Ivy league classics departments, then I obviously don't belong here? Using your logic and we agree that the Ancient Macedonians weren't Greek to the letter, all Macedonians will concur that the Roman empire assumed control around 160 BC?? Macedonia has been occupied by various regimes as you are aware. However, I think we are erroneously trying to dissect historical facts that cannot be altered by political interpretation!

In addition, our nations should be focusing on Balkan and economic trade, rather than proving who is more "Macedonian" or providing the percentage or likeness of Ancient Macedonians to modern Hellenes etc. In this day and age, there are various ethnic groups who live in the Macedonian region and unless there is a war, the status quo will not change. Its beneficial to obtain all ethnicities perspective on the Macedonian Q instead of making generalisations to suit an agenda.

[George S.]

we are coming towards some kind of limited concensus.I'm not doubting that people have lived in macedonia for hundreds of years and i have not doubted that parts have been helenised.But to say the overwhelming area was hellenised when in fact the majority of people have been macedonians in the area.I'm not doubting of some greeks living in bits and pices.
But you have to be fair and say that macedonians are macedonian and greeks were greek and the twain has never met.We would never take from you wwhat is yours but we would take only what was ours.I personally would admit to you if macedonian and the greeks were the same.I wouldn't beat around the bush.Macedonians and greeks are not the same race of people.Forget what the scholars have written they are wrong particularly when it has been manipulated by the greek gvt to the detriment of real scholarly work.If you look at the real history thats gone by you would have an open mind and its shocking to see the real truth.
What we are asking is for a little fairness and a frank admission'
When we are talking of native people ,we are saying people who have been around for a very long time as an example macedonians have been in the aegean area for many thousands of years.At no stage have we said that someone who has lived for hundreds of years are natives at all simply by way of comparison.That is the type of endopi original sewttlers we are talking about not some johny come lately.
Also where there are wild claims and we know them to be false we aren't just going to sit there and accept lying bs.The truth can only be black or white not multicolored.

[vicsinad]

In addition, our nations should be focusing on Balkan and economic trade, rather than proving who is more "Macedonian" or providing the percentage or likeness of Ancient Macedonians to modern Hellenes etc. In this day and age, there are various ethnic groups who live in the Macedonian region and unless there is a war, the status quo will not change. Its beneficial to obtain all ethnicities perspective on the Macedonian Q instead of making generalisations to suit an agenda.

Our nations should be working to ensure that all citizens have equal rights and freedoms as all other citizens.

That is, if a citizen of Greece views himself as an ethnic Macedonian (not as a regional Macedonian of Greek ethnicity) he should be afforded the same freedoms and protection of laws as other citizens.

That is, if a people of one country are allowed to decide the name of their country without external influence or pressure, and without economic and political repercussions, then a people of another country should be allowed to do the same.

Only then can we concern ourselves with injecting more elements of a failed Greek economic system into a fragile Macedonian political and economic system.


Second, your idea that ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect may be taught in Ivy League classics courses, but how does that indicate truth or honesty and integrity in potrayal of the information? Furthermore, I have been taught, from professors in a reputable institution, that ancient Macedonians and their language was not Greek.

Then there are several sources, here's one from 1800s, and then one modern one:

"For after Alexander the Great's conquests, the kings of Asia Minor, Syria and Egypt were Macedonians, and though the Macedonian language was incomprehensible to the Greeks, it is probably that Greek was the court language." The Builder, 1891, Pg. 83


"The Macedonian tongue was so far removed from the Greek of Athens or Sparta that it may as well have been a different language entirely. Years after his birth, when Alexander was in central Asia, he grew so angry at a drinking party one night that he switched from his usual Greek speech to yell at his guards in Macedonian. Later still his soldiers mocked an officer on trial for addressing them in Greek rather than the normal Macedonian of the ranks. Macedonians were known for their odd words and strange pronunciation – they could never quite get Greek sounds right even when they tried. Though their kings bore ancient Greek names, the Macedonian people called Philip Bilippos instead of the normal Greek Philippos. This only served to make them an object of further scorn to their pretentious critics in the Athenian assembly. Language, as well as politics, culture, and so much else, reinforced the opinion of the Greeks that the Macedonians were a separate people, barbarians from beyond Olympus, no matter how hard their kings might try to behave like Greeks. And to most Macedonians, this was just fine. They saw the Greeks as feeble, effeminate, self-important snobs who had long since squandered whatever manliness and courage they had possessed when they had driven back the Persian invaders more than a century earlier. The Macedonian nobility might study Greek philosophy and recite the poetry of Homer, but the common Macedonian soldier was proud not to be Greek." -- Philip Freeman, Alexander the Great, Page 5 (2011)

On that note, I will keep up the fight to protect and promote the Macedonian identity as separate from Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Albanian, Slavs, Europeans or whatever else. For all I care, free and open trade and economic growth can go back to the the Devil they came from if it means that the Macedonian identity will be diminished.

This is a Macedonian forum. You can put forth material that tries to deny the existence of Macedonians or ancient Macedonians as a separate people on other forums. But this is for the Macedonians and how we see it. I sense, that if you keep up your shenanigans, you will be out of here soon.

[Gocka]

Well done brother.

Id also like to add that had our Greek neighbors tended to their domestic troubles more and focused less on trying to eradicate Macedonians, then maybe Greece wouldn't be in the toilet.

For decades now they (Greece), took advantage of their EU status, their larger population, and ancient notoriety to intimidate and bully Macedonia, and Macedonians in Greece. Now that they are near collapse they want to be more pragmatic and neighborly.

Greeks have been so lucky that their ancient status is so high that it has carried them through for centuries. Had our dispute been with some other random country like Slovenia, there wouldn't have been a dispute at all. How long can 10 million people hang on to a few good works of a dozen philosophers. Apparently 2000 years.

Our nations should be working to ensure that all citizens have equal rights and freedoms as all other citizens.

That is, if a citizen of Greece views himself as an ethnic Macedonian (not as a regional Macedonian of Greek ethnicity) he should be afforded the same freedoms and protection of laws as other citizens.

That is, if a people of one country are allowed to decide the name of their country without external influence or pressure, and without economic and political repercussions, then a people of another country should be allowed to do the same.

Only then can we concern ourselves with injecting more elements of a failed Greek economic system into a fragile Macedonian political and economic system.


Second, your idea that ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect may be taught in Ivy League classics courses, but how does that indicate truth or honesty and integrity in potrayal of the information? Furthermore, I have been taught, from professors in a reputable institution, that ancient Macedonians and their language was not Greek.

Then there are several sources, here's one from 1800s, and then one modern one:

"For after Alexander the Great's conquests, the kings of Asia Minor, Syria and Egypt were Macedonians, and though the Macedonian language was incomprehensible to the Greeks, it is probably that Greek was the court language." The Builder, 1891, Pg. 83


"The Macedonian tongue was so far removed from the Greek of Athens or Sparta that it may as well have been a different language entirely. Years after his birth, when Alexander was in central Asia, he grew so angry at a drinking party one night that he switched from his usual Greek speech to yell at his guards in Macedonian. Later still his soldiers mocked an officer on trial for addressing them in Greek rather than the normal Macedonian of the ranks. Macedonians were known for their odd words and strange pronunciation – they could never quite get Greek sounds right even when they tried. Though their kings bore ancient Greek names, the Macedonian people called Philip Bilippos instead of the normal Greek Philippos. This only served to make them an object of further scorn to their pretentious critics in the Athenian assembly. Language, as well as politics, culture, and so much else, reinforced the opinion of the Greeks that the Macedonians were a separate people, barbarians from beyond Olympus, no matter how hard their kings might try to behave like Greeks. And to most Macedonians, this was just fine. They saw the Greeks as feeble, effeminate, self-important snobs who had long since squandered whatever manliness and courage they had possessed when they had driven back the Persian invaders more than a century earlier. The Macedonian nobility might study Greek philosophy and recite the poetry of Homer, but the common Macedonian soldier was proud not to be Greek." -- Philip Freeman, Alexander the Great, Page 5 (2011)

On that note, I will keep up the fight to protect and promote the Macedonian identity as separate from Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Albanian, Slavs, Europeans or whatever else. For all I care, free and open trade and economic growth can go back to the the Devil they came from if it means that the Macedonian identity will be diminished.

This is a Macedonian forum. You can put forth material that tries to deny the existence of Macedonians or ancient Macedonians as a separate people on other forums. But this is for the Macedonians and how we see it. I sense, that if you keep up your shenanigans, you will be out of here soon.

[vicsinad]

Id also like to add that had our Greek neighbors tended to their domestic troubles more and focused less on trying to eradicate Macedonians, then maybe Greece wouldn't be in the toilet.

You're right. But Greece does not know how to exist as a state without incorporating chauvinism or discrimination in its official policies.

[George S.]

Poligiroiros your side claims that the macedonians were greek all they spoke was greek.But the macedonians spoke their own language of which the greeks didn't understand.Thats why rhe macedonians were called barbarians.Demosthenes spoke about the non greekness of phillip and that he wasn't greek.The common person did not speak greekthey spoke their own macedonian language.The macedonian commanders spoke macedonian not greek.FACT you cant deny more greeks were fighting for the persians than with alexander.Alexander used only macedonians and any greeks were put at the back of his entourage.Alexander wanred rhe macedonians to get all the glory.

[George S.]

Poligiroiros your side claims that the macedonians were greek all they spoke was greek.But the macedonians spoke their own language of which the greeks didn't understand.Thats why rhe macedonians were called barbarians.Demosthenes spoke about the non greekness of phillip and that he wasn't greek.The common person did not speak greekthey spoke their own macedonian language.The macedonian commanders spoke macedonian not greek.FACT you cant deny more greeks were fighting for the persians than with alexander.Alexander used only macedonians and any greeks were put at the back of his entourage.Alexander watred rhe macedonians to get all the glory.

[Poligiros]

Poligiroiros your side claims that the macedonians were greek all they spoke was greek.But the macedonians spoke their own language of which the greeks didn't understand.Thats why rhe macedonians were called barbarians.Demosthenes spoke about the non greekness of phillip and that he wasn't greek.The common person did not speak greekthey spoke their own macedonian language.The macedonian commanders spoke macedonian not greek.FACT you cant deny more greeks were fighting for the persians than with alexander.Alexander used only macedonians and any greeks were put at the back of his entourage.Alexander wanred rhe macedonians to get all the glory.

Taking reputable quotes in consideration about Greek being incomprehensible to the Ancient Macedonians, do you think Ancient Macedonian was likely a Hellenic Dialect using the ancient Greek alphabet, or do you believe it was a totally unrelated language?
Can you show me proof of a varying Macedonian alphabet from 500BC-200BC? Surely some evidence would be written in stone?

As a loose guide:

http://indo-european.eu/wiki/index.php/Ancient_Macedonian_language

Taking a look at all ancient Macedonian artefacts, Rosetta Stone etc, I can make out the inscriptions using the modern Greek Alphabet. In my opinion, and from the research I have done, up until 500BC Ancient Macedonian was likely to be a Hellenic dialect not clear to the other Greek city speakers up until when the Hellenisitic age commenced, thereby adopting the Greek court language.

I am interested in facts here, thanks for posting reputable quotes from historians stating ancient Greek was incomprehensible to the Macedonians.

[Dejan]

Guys, no need for ancient quotes etc. We, the Macedonians, are living proof that Macedonians are a distinct people. It's really as simple as that. My parents are Macedonian, their parents were, and so on...

Now tell me - who can possibly take that away from me?

[George S.]

Poligirous think of the timeline of the grreeks arriving on the balkans.The atticaq greeks came approx 2300 bc??The hellenes came in 800bc (adopted Phonecian alphabet in 825bc)
Prior to that it was linia linia b.
NOte the macedonians were in the balkans in prehistoric times and earlier,much earlier than the greeks.The fact is the greeks are trying to make the macedonians the same race of people they are not.Macedonians were not included in the trojan war as they were not greek.There are no liknks in any way of greek and macedonian .The timeline proves that macedonians are from the older substratum the greeks are not.It has been proved in genetic studies.
The rest as they say is all propaganda.All full of lies from the greek side.

[Poligiros]

Guys, no need for ancient quotes etc. We, the Macedonians, are living proof that Macedonians are a distinct people. It's really as simple as that. My parents are Macedonian, their parents were, and so on...

Now tell me - who can possibly take that away from me?

Good point. Nobody can take it away from you.

However, if I use a similar argument that my known ancestors (for at least a few hundred years) were native in Aegean Macedonia (Chalkidiki) and feel as though Macedonians are NOT a distinct people from the other Greeks? The response I would get on this forum is that I am probably a liar and cannot possibly be Macedonian due to my Hellenic affiliation.

There are overlaps with every culture, especially in bordering regions. There are no hard and clear cut cases of prolonged ethnicity when it comes to the Macedonian region from what I have researched, in my opinion. Nobody can deny any ethnic group if they have lived in the region for hundreds if not thousands of years.

[Nikolaj]

Poligiros,

Do you believe every language out there had a script or something... Why would something have to be written in the first place? I am sure you are aware a lot of fictional and non-fictional stories were remembered through oral tradition. Then again, ancient Macedonian and even Thracian has been written in Greek script, but of course does not imply they are Greek languages.

I don't think you understand, this isn't JUST our view, it is how specialists on Ancient Macedonia view it. It's not our fault they aren't classifying Macedonians as Greeks, it's the ancient content that has. Eugene Borza, Ernest Badian, Peter Green you name it, contest them not us.

I suggest you do some reading on the forum, you are far from thinking logically.

[Nikolaj]

Good point. Nobody can take it away from you.

However, if I use a similar argument that my known ancestors (for at least a few hundred years) were native in Aegean Macedonia (Chalkidiki) and feel as though Macedonians are NOT a distinct people from the other Greeks? The response I would get on this forum is that I am probably a liar and cannot possibly be Macedonian due to my Hellenic affiliation.

There are overlaps with every culture, especially in bordering regions. There are no hard and clear cut cases of prolonged ethnicity when it comes to the Macedonian region from what I have researched, in my opinion. Nobody can deny any ethnic group if they have lived in the region for hundreds if not thousands of years.

At most your family were Greeks living on Macedonian soil, alongside Macedonians. If you believe you are Macedonian due to Hellenic affiliation I am sorry to break the news to you.

Yes there are overlaps with every culture, but not for the countries in the Balkans, your culture is almost exactly the same as mine, the only overlapping culture here is the Balkan countries and non-Balkan countries.