Bosnia: Politics and Current Events

[Bukefal]

When talking about Macedonians seeing Serb as friends or brothers, I was not referring to you or something.

Just in general, I have noticed many Macedonians who tend to see the Serbs and love and kiss their asses.

[Dimko-piperkata]

Are people here also blind to the fact that it was the Bosnian Muslims who sided with Hitler in World War II. The Grand Mufti of Jeruslem hand picked these soldiers of the sword creating one of Hitlers most feared units.

thats true....

YouTube - ‪Hitler and the Mufti‬‏

YouTube - ‪1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler‬‏

[Dimko-piperkata]

What I was meant to write was I am not 100% sure on the name of the town it is something close to the word dzer. Youtube has 1000's of unbiased videos from the war that you can watch and find everything out for yourselfs. I don't understand why people here are arguing are you siding with the Bosnian Muslims? :S

well vojnik...we macedonians dont like the serbs because of many many reason...
two of the significant one´s are....
the occupation of "vardar" part of macedonia 1913.....and
the still today not recognition of our macedonian church.

[fatso]

Found this bit on Naser:FILE

Naser Oric, war criminal

Murderer From Srebrenica

Muslim soldiers describe him as a man who demanded unquestioning obedience and iron discipline from his men. Mirsad Sulejmanovic "Skejo" remembers that "after the attack on Kravica, Naser's soldiers caught five or six Serbs in the village of Kajici and they slit their throats"

by "REPORTER'S" INVESTIGATIVE TEAM

Reporter, Banja Luka, Srpska, B-H, April 10, 2001

During testimony in the case against General Radislav Krstic, accused on the basis of command responsibility for war crimes against the Bosniak population of Srebrenica in July 1995, the chief of staff of the BH Army at that time, retired General Enver Hadzihasanovic was asked in a courtroom of the Hague Tribunal why so many thousands of people were killed after Serb forces took over Srebrenica. Without batting an eyelash, Hadzihasanovic replied as follows: "To this very day, I have been asking myself the question what induced those people in the Republic of Srpska Army to simply murder completely innocent people. Believe me, I have still not found a decent answer."

Decent answer: To the extent that there can be an explanation for a crime, in this case it would be that there were guilty people in Srebrenica. General Hadzihasanovic, as ill-prepared as many others in this country to acknowledge the crimes that individual members of his people committed against others, gave a false response because both he personally and the entire Bosniak military and political leadership are fully aware of the fact that crimes that took places prior to April 1993, when Srebrenica was declared "a United Nations safe haven". They are also aware of crimes that occurred later against Serb civilians in Srebrenica, Skelani, Bratunac and Milici municipalities. These crimes were committed by Bosniaks from Srebrenica led by their war commander, Naser Oric.

According to reliable testimony by Serbs and Bosniaks from this region, through April 1993 units of the Muslim army attacked more than one hundred Serb villages and hamlets in these four municipalities (70 of the attacks took place through December 1992), killing approximately 1,000 civilians and members of the Republic of Srpska Army (VRS), and wounding or injuring between 2,800 and 3,200 Serbs. In the book "A Chronicle of Our Cemetery", Milivoje Ivanisevic, listing the names of the people killed and the locations where crimes occurred, presents the fact that 999 persons of Serb nationality were killed but also warns that a completely accurate number of victims is impossible to determine because the fate of persons who were imprisoned, captured or in any other way found themselves in Muslim-controlled territory remains unknown. The majority of attacks on unprotected Serb villages near Srebrenica, Bratunac, Skelani and Milici were led by Naser Oric himself.

Oric's units and Oric personally massacred 87 persons using knives, pitchforks, blunt objects, by crucifixion, castration, setting on fire and torture... During this period (May 1992 - February 1993) almost 800 Serb children lost one or both parents; all villages that came under attack were completely devastated and generally burnt to the ground. Approximately 5,400 families lost their land and personal property while approximately 12,800 Serbs or 45 percent of the Serb population of the region left their homes.

Milosevic's bodyguard: Naser Oric was born in 1967 in Potocarska Rijeka, Srebrenica municipality. He is a well-educated and trained policeman, a member of the special forces of the Serbian Ministry of Internal Affairs (MUP) who prior to the war in BH even served as a member of the personal security team of Slobodan Milosevic, then president of Serbia.

At the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992, he returned to Srebrenica and was given the task by the Bosniak political leadership to organize a training camp for armed paramilitary and para-police groups in Potocari near Srebrenica. He had already formed several separate groups in the town under different command structures. Feuding regarding command authority was brought to an abrupt halt by a dispatch from Sarajevo naming Naser Oric as the Srebrenica commander. It is not known exactly when this order arrived but its effects were felt at the beginning of May 1992 by the Serbs in Srebrenica and the surrounding region.

The first attacks on Serb villages in Bratunac and Srebrenica municipalities were carried out the same day - the feast of St. George [Djurdjevdan] on May 6, 1992. The targets were a part of the village of Bljeceva (Bratunac municipality) and the hamlet of Gniona (Srebrenica municipality). According to testimony by surviving Serbs, the attack on Bljeceva was led by Hasib Ibrahimovic, the attack on Gniona by Naser Oric himself. The people killed in Bljeceva included the elderly woman Kosana Zekic (whose throat was slit inside her house), Milan Zekic and elderly man Gojko Jovanovic, born in 1917. In Gniona two elderly men were killed: Lazar Simic (1936) and Radojko Milosevic (1928), the later an ailing and half-blind man who was burned to death inside his house. The entire village was completely destroyed and burned to the ground. Marko Slijepcevic and Miladin Vukadinovic, who survived the attack on Gniona, testified that Oric, using a loudspeaker, called on the Serbs in the village to surrender and threatened he would kill them all if they failed to do so.

Oric's crimes: In order to make it clear to the non-Muslim population of Srebrenica as to what awaited them in the near future unless they moved out of the town, after the attacks described above Oric ordered the murder of Goran Zekic, a respected Srebrenica judge and the deputy of the Serbian Democratic Party (SDS) in the [former Yugoslav republic of] Bosnia-Hercegovina Parliament. Zekic was murdered on May 8, 1992 from an ambush near the village of Zalazje on the approach to Srebrenica. On May 9 Serbs began to leave town.

On June 1 Oric organized an attack on the hamlet of Oparci in Srebrenica municipality; six local residents were murdered and 22 Serb houses were burned to the ground. On June 21 the village of Ratkovici was attacked during which five women and three men ranging in age from 64 to 71 years were killed. Even greater crimes were committed in the village of Brezani, Srebrenica municipality, on June 30 when 19 local residents were murdered. Milos Novkovic (1956) was found beheaded while Vidoje Lazic (1937) was crucified and then set on fire. Also set on fire in her house was Kristina Lazic (1935). Witnesses claim that the attack was led by Oric and also identified several of his infamous accomplices: former convict Zulfo Tursanovic, a native of the village of Suceska; Hakija Meholjic, Akif Ustic (deceased), Huso and Resad Halilovic, Osman Zukic, and Akif and Vehbija Jahic.

In the villages of Krnjici and Oricevi the fighters slew 16 local residents on July 5. The throat of Vaso Paraca (1912) was slit while a pitchfork was driven through the body of Ms. Soka Vujic. On July 12, the same group committed the greatest crime of all during that bloody summer in an attack on the hamlet of Zalazje in the immediate vicinity of Srebrenica. 39 local Serbs were murdered in that hamlet; in addition to the names already cited, Hajrudin Besic; Azem, Nezir and Hajrudin Bezic, and Amir Mehmedovic are mentioned as perpetrators.

After a brief pause, the now hardened murderers attacked the village of Podravanje on September 24, 1992, killing 31 people there. The attackers were particularly brutal toward the local residents: the victims were found burned to death, with their throats slit, beheaded, with their stomachs slit open and killed by blunt objects. On the same day, September 24, Oric personally led an attack against guards on the surface excavation site of a bauxite mine 25 kilometers from Milici. The attack was renewed on December 3 and seven security guards were murdered and massacred. Besides Oric, participants in this attack included Zulfo Tursunovic, Becir Mekanic, Ibrahim Ademovic "Cagura" and Mujo Bektic from the villlage of Podgaji in Srebrenic municipality.

Bloody Christmas: Attacks on the villages of Fakovici and Boljevici in Bratunac municipality (October 5) and Bjelovac and Sikiric (December 14) and Glogova (December 24, 1992) were preparations for the general attack by Oric's fighters on the large Serb village of Kravica on the road from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac. Nineteen local residents were killed in Fakovici, eight in Boljevici, 24 in Bjelovac, 21 in Sikiric and 16 in Glogova.

With the fall of Glogova, Kravica was completely surrounded by Muslims. On Christmas morning, January 7, 1993, 3,000 Muslim fighters led by Naser Oric attacked. A fierce battle ensued and thanks to the courage of Serb fighters in the village, many civilians managed to make it out of Kravica. Everyone who remained in Kravica was slaughtered. The final score of "the bloody Christmas" was 46 dead and 36 injured soldiers and civilians. According to the testimony of the survivors, even dogs and cats were shot while all houses in the village, numbering 690, were looted and set on fire. Grave markers at the Orthodox cemetery were destroyed and desecrated, and even the bodies of the deceased were not spared from looting and desecration.

Not even this was enough for Oric and his killers. On January 16, 1993 they attacked the villages of Cosici, Kostolomci, Kusici (Skelani municipality), as well as the municipal seat of Skelani itself. On that day a total of 48 persons were killed in the municipality.

Prisons in Srebrenica: Oric did not like to take prisoners. He took them only when he had to exchange them for one of his fighters. Several Serbs have testified that detainees in the basement of the police building, the courthouse and the municipal building in Srebrenica suffered through the most horrible torture; some of them died in hospital after being exchanged. Veselin Sarac, who died as a result of heavy beatings sustained in Srebrenica prisons, testified prior to his death that Oric was among the men who beat him. All surviving prisoners say the greatest perpetrator of evil was Hakija Meholjic.

Captured Muslim soldiers also testified regarding Oric's crimes. They describe him as a man who demanded unquestioning obedience and iron discipline from his men. Mirsad Sulejmanovic "Skejo" remembers that "after the attack on Kravica, Naser's soldiers caught five or six Serbs in the village of Kajici and they slit their throats".

The crimes of the Srebrenica Bosniaks could not remain without reaction on the part of the Serb units. At the end of February 1993, the joint forces of the VRS Drina Corps launched a counteroffensive, taking Cerska, Konjevic Polje and liberating Kravica. Oric's forces were pushed back toward Srebrenica which on April 17, 1993 was declared a "safe haven" from which they continued to carry out sabotage operations and ambushes deep into RS territory.

Testimony: The commander of the [Muslim] BH Army at the time, General Sefer Halilovic, as well as already mentioned General Hadzihasanovic, gave the same statements before the Hague Tribunal in answer to the question whether any crimes were committed from the Srebrenica enclave after April 17, 1993. "The enclave did not represent a threat to the Bosnian Serbs because the forces that were protecting it were poorly alarmed. If there were any sabotage operations conducted from the 'safe haven', I think that was a mistake," stated Halilovic, while General Hadzihasanovic called the units in the enclave "useless for combat".

"Mistakes by units useless for combat" continued to take lives of Serb civilians. In an attack carried out on May 27, 1995 in the region of Rupovo Brdo in Milici municipality, five Serb civilians who were cutting wood in the forest were killed. An ambush in the area of Skelani municipality on June 23 resulted in the murder of four civilians; three days later, Muslim soldiers from the "safe haven" forced their way into the village of Visnjica in Milici municipality, killing one and wounding two civilians. "In accordance with Oric's good old habit", the village was burned to the ground.

These three attacks (there were many more of them) from the "safe haven" were characterized by the fact that they were not ordered by Naser Oric. Together with 18 "key officers", Oric left Srebrenica in April 1995 for "training in Zenica", according to the testimony of generals Halilovic and Hadzihasanovic. If one reads a little between the lines, Halilovic would go on to accuse the Bosniak political leadership of abandoning the Srebrenica enclave to the Serbs. From such a position on Halilovic's part it is possible to draw several conclusions. The Bosniak leadership knew of Oric's crimes committed in 1992 and 1993 and therefore wished to remove him from Srebrenica to prevent him from possibly becoming a live witness in the hands of the Serbs. Second, the sentiment of the Serb fighters toward the Srebrenica Bosniaks after the above described crimes could be discerned. This sentiment was further fanned by the above cited sabotage operations carried out on the eve of the Serb offensive against Srebrenica. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the Serbs wanted revenge and this development was favorable to those who wanted to suppress information about Oric's and all other crimes committed by Bosniaks against Serbs in the municipalities of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Skelani and Milici.

Hague logic: After Serb crimes in Srebrenica, there were few who wanted or dared to mention Naser Oric and his bloody works in this region. The complete documentation on the case was submitted to the prosecutors of the Hague tribunal as early as July 1996 by Marko Arsovic, the then RS justice minister, and his deputy and the RS liaison officer to the tribunal, Goran Neskovic, personally. It makes sense that a that time the Hague prosecutors did not do anything to initiate procedures regarding any of the documented crimes because protests such as those recently held in front of the UN headquarters in Sarajevo at that time were not only the privilege of the women of Srebrenica.

Oric, however, sooner or later had to come before the Hague investigators. The political moment is right because Serbs in both Belgrade and Banja Luka are far less nauseated at the very mention of the Tribunal and Slobodan Milosevic is in jail. In the Public Security Center in Zvornik, Reporter learned that tribunal investigators have already spent five days in Milici and Zvornik, where they are questioning exclusively Serb witnesses regarding Bosniak crimes. A Public Security Center source told us that this is their third visit in the past two years and assessed their work as "very thorough and professional". The Zvornik police has also provided them with new documentation and turned over 10 cases of criminal charges filed against Naser Oric and his subordinates, whose criminal activities were proven long ago.

The Hague indictment against Oric is slowly gathering momentum but it will be finalized, Reporter has learned, depending on political conditions, as always. Ultimately, it will not be stopped by the "incomplete" generals' testimony in The Hague, protests or the destruction of the fence in front of the UN headquarters in Sarajevo, or even by statements given under coercion, such as Klein's "Oric has not been arrested and indicted". The truth and justice are on the side of the victims of the Srebrenica butchers. Justice is slow but, we hope, within reach.

"The Chronicle of Our Cemetery"

In preparing this article Reporter is deeply indebted to Milivoj Ivanisevic and his book "The Chronicle of Our Cemetery" in which everything that occurred from May 1992 to February 1993 in the areas of Bratunac, Milici, Skelani and Srebrenica municipalities is described and demonstrated in a distinctly objective and clear manner.

Ivanisevic is an outside associate of the Belgrade Committee for Gathering of Data on War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity and International Law. This book was published as far back as 1994, translated into English and French, and sent to all relevant international political and legal institutions, as well as the media. If an appropriate response had occurred at that time, it is possible that further tragedies of both Serbs and Bosniaks in this region could have been avoided.

"The Chronicle of Our Cemetery" is also the primary source for the book "Bloody Christmas" on crimes in the village of Kravica, written by reporter and publicist Boro Miljanovic. The book was originally published by Belgrade publisher "Magenta" in 1996; a second edition was published in 2000. Some facts and information from this book were also used by "Reporter" in preparation of this article.

Translated by S. Lazovic (Pascha, 2001)


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: balkanalqaeda; balkans; campaignfinance; christianpersecutio; clinton; goldenchain; mujahedeen; mujahideen; warcrimes

1 posted on Wed Sep 04 2002 12:42:21 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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To: *balkans; Destro; joan
this article says that 999 civilians were murdered by Oric, others put the figure at 3,100.
the article fails to remind us is that Oric was supplied by the Clinton White House in their insane support of Bosnian and Albanian Jihadists.

2 posted on Wed Sep 04 2002 1217 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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To: vooch
Very timely and important post.
Let's assume that every death that these people screaming for Mladic and Karadzic's head were indeed true and could be attributed to them. Hell, let's take it a step further and let them claim that the Serb forces that went into Srebrenica killed women and children too. Let's even go so far as to say that the number of people killed by the Serbs that went into Srebrenica topped the 10,000 mark. That's right. Let's say that the Serb forces killed 10,000 men, women and children in Srebrenica. Now until the 999 civilians killed by Oric's goons (and that's the lowest estimate I've heard) are properly internationally mourned and worried over in half the intensity as these "Srebrenica" casualties are, I for one will not shed one single tear or concern myself in even the slightest way.

If these bleeding hearts that are so concerned with attocities against the innocents wish to make a valid case, they must first square up with the original victims before moving on to their political agendas. Otherwise, all they are going to get is a continuation of the cycle of violence and my two deaf ears not listening to their pathetic examples of selective crying.

3 posted on Wed Sep 04 2002 19:29:40 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by getoffmylawn
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To: vooch; getoffmylawn; DTA; Destro
Good post. Here are 2 of the questions arising:
- Since this article was written in April 2001, the political climate for the indictment and arrest of Oric and others has been more favorable, partly due to September 11 and to the Dutch report that describes crimes by Bosnian Muslim forces in and around Srebrenica. But have there been any developments in that regard?

- Have the bodies of all Serb victims been found? How many of the approximately 2000 bodies found in the area and counted as Muslims could belong to Serbs? Are Bosnian Serb authorities pursuing such a claim?

4 posted on Wed Sep 04 2002 2312 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by pythagorean
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To: vooch; branicap
A photo of one of Branicap's former Judo students - Naser Oric.:


5 posted on Wed Sep 04 2002 23:42:46 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by joan
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To: *Christian persecutio; dennisw
There was a real massacre of Christian civilians in Srebrenica. There was a fake massacre of Moslem civilians.
Q: which one was trumpeted by the liberal media?

6 posted on Wed Sep 04 2002 23:54:06 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by DTA
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To: pythagorean; Hoplite
precisely.........the liberals refuse to admit even the slightest possibility that any of the civilian bodies found might, maybe, perhaps be those of anti-Oric villages slaughtered by his roving execution squads.........even though the civilian bodies were found in the very villages where Oric did his deadly deeds
7 posted on Thu Sep 05 2002 04:35:09 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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To: vooch
Thanks for posting.
8 posted on Thu Sep 05 2002 15:47:10 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by Michael2001
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To: joan; DTA; vooch; pythagorean; Kate22; crazykatz; Hoplite; Destro; Voronin; Banat; Tropoljac
Joan,you do have a very good memory!
Unlike all of you,I know (used to) Naser Orich personaly!Long time ago,in the mid 80s I used to train with Belgrade militia judo team "Mladi Milicionar"(Young Militiaman).I ,also,used to train with military police and Federal Antiterrorist Brigade.And,used to know a lot of important policemen.As a distinguished judoist many times I was coaching young policemen on the request of their superiors.Naser Orich was one of those students for ,I believe,six months.

He was a good police "material":not very intelligent,strong as an ox,a peasant,obidient to his superiors and brutal with "inferiors"(civilian population he had to "protect and serve")!!Not a champion atlete and no prospect for any significant success in judo,but OK for the street work!Never paid to much attention to him .But,I remember one small conversation with him regarding a book "The Knife" by Vuk Draskovich (later a leader of the Serbian Renewal Movement)which was a description of the true events during the WWII when Muslims had slaughtered the Serbs from the vilage of Prebilovci in Herzegovina.Orich claimed that the book is a lie and that Draskovich should be shot "f*** his chetnik mother"!He pissed me off,because he overheard the conversation between me and some other guys,and made the comment without being asked to do so.Before anyone else got involved(we were in the dressing room at the end of the training)I told him:"I,ll give you a piece of advice,you Bosnian ox:first,don`t talk more than your belt allows you!Secondly;don`t get involved in other people`s conversations!And,finaly,I suggest you take your car and go drive south:when you pass that Godforsaken village of yours that you came from,carry on for about 100 miles south on the main road towards Dubrovnik(Adriatic Coast).5 miles before Trebinje,you know where that town is, 10 meters from the road on the right hand side is a cave in which hundreds of villagers from Prebilovci were thrown in,after their throats were slit!Read what is written on the small memorial next to it and then come here and say what you just said again!And,read the book,if you can read, and than make a comment.Just shut up,have a shower and leave!"And he did,like a puppy!

Naser Orich was one of many Muslims in Serbian police.Muslims were a favourite "shock troops" of Slobodan Miloshevich till `93!Why?Because they were very,very brutal in dealing with the opposition!Every time we,the opposition had some demonstrations in Belgrade Miloshevich would bring police units from his native town of Pozarevats,and Muslims from Sandzak!What he failed to understand was that these people were butchering us on the streets of Belgrade not because we were anti socialist but because we were SERBS!

I will never forget the night of 9th of march 1991 when we had a huge demonstrations in Belgrade and when I was arrested late in the night with a group of people arround Vuk Draskovich and Vojislav Kostunitsa.We were taken to the Padinska Skela Prison,thrown in the cell and half an our later "barbarians"arived.Prison guards reinforced by a Muslims from Sandzak!They would come into the cell with 10-15 of us and started kicking the s*** aout of us.Men,women indiscriminately!"Want to demonstrate you f*****g Chetnics,F**k your Chetnic`s mothers!People colapsing,being bitten sensless,all night.

When they arrived in my cell,five of them,I reccognized two of them: my very good friend and colleague from a Serbian Judo team,Inspector Shevchet Mashovich,a Muslim and another one whose name I don`t remember but was one of the very young just graduated policemen,also from Sandzak!I don`t think that I am a big hero but there is no f*****g way that I am going to be beaten by a man that I`ve known for 15 years who use to sleep at my house !So I steped forvard and grabed the hand of the younger one and started shouting at Mashovic"Do you know what are you f*****g doing,Shevcet?Don`t you reccognize me?Shame on you!Are you mad?"He stopped in his tracs unsure what to do.So I continued;"We`ve been friends for 15 years,you and I,but I swear on my life,if you touch me you will go down!You know me,and what I can do!?If you don`t have a specific order to kioll us,I promise you that If I am hurt and these people here,I`ll go out.And then you better leave Belgrade.Because,policeman or not,I know you,your family,where you live...if I don`t kill you,my mother certanly will!Same applies to you you little shit(the young one)somebody will pay you a visit in your hotel room one of these days!So,what`s gonna be,Inspector,your Miloshevich or your friends....??"We looked at each other for a few moments and then he ordered them out and closed the door.We were released in the morning.Only me and 11 others from my cell."You`re lucky,Doc.You have a friends at high places in the police!If it was my decission I would teach you a lesson" was a comment of the Prison Guards Supervisor.I have suggested that he can start my "education" giving me a lesson in oral sex,providing that he had enough courrage to step outside the prison gate!I was realy mad,and ready for anything!But,he stayed inside and I was draged away by my fellow "prisoners" who were terrified and gratefull for being out!

Naser Orich and his cohorts from the Serbian police had only changed their uniforms in 1992.Then,they have continued doing what they were doing the best till`92:hateing,beating and killing the Serbs!

Today,they are "democrats" and demand "Sandzak Republic" don`t speak Serbo-Croatian but Bosnian language and are ready to start trouble and demand NATO intervention!Watch Sandzak carefully!

The fact that Mr Orich, who is,by any standards a murderer,is in Tuzla,under American protection speaks for itself!

Sorry for the long post and some private details from my life!

9 posted on Thu Sep 05 2002 17:10:02 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by branicap
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To: branicap; All
Naser Orich is NASER,originaly. NASIR is Arabic version of his name addopted(+ mandatory beard) for the "cause"!
10 posted on Thu Sep 05 2002 17:12:32 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by branicap
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To: pythagorean; vooch; All
#4
You ask a good questions!

In my oppinion,Srebrenica will have a simmilar faith like a Katyin Forest Masssacre in Poland!Official(NATO) history will tell as ad nauseam that 8000 Muslim men were killed!The real truth will be revealed in fifty odd years.

As far as Serbs go,Orich was a specialist in avoiding a fight with Serebian army.But,old men and women were his favourite prey!Their bodies were butchered and deliberately left in order to speread fear among the population.If we have in mind the fact that Srebrenicsa was surrounded,missing Serbian bodies were.probbably exhumed from some of the mass graves and are stored in Tuzla.Identification is a big problem.So,all the bodies in the morgue are presumeably Muslims!

Interesting thing is that BBC report a few days ago claims that there are 6000 bodies in the morgue;another report claims 5000.At the same time latest report from RS claims that about 2500 muslims were killed in the combat and that majority of the casualities were inflicted outside Srebrenica while BSA was persuing Muslim forces trying to flee to Tuzla!Even the Muslims had to addmit that Muslim units were sent from Tuzla to attack the BSA and save the Srebrenica Corps who was facing anihilation in the mountins and valleys trying to escape!There is no doubt that Muslims were mauled and suffered a hevy casualities.Never mind,they were all massacred!

Srebrenica is a a tragedy with a capital T!It is a story of trachery and hypocrisy;betrayal and an outmost cinycisam;a PR excercize in dishonesty,par excelance!And,nobody is innocent!

In spring `92 Muslims attacked and expeled the Serbs from Srebrenica(not reported in Western Press);Serbs said "We will be back" and they came back,next spring.The only one who publicly explined that fact at least here in UK,was Misha Gleny,prominent historian and expert on Balkan affairs.Once battle was lost Muslims started ising ,already perfected Croatian trick of playing victims and calling UN to save them!It worked!Then,they started playing a numbers game:suddenly a small town which had app 25 000 people became a safe haven for 100000!!!But,a real number was never more than double of the pre war population!Media went allong with it!Then came a "Hero" a French General Morillon!A veteran of Foreign Legion,a soldier trough and trough had volontiered to be a Muslim fool and grin stupidly for the cameras,together with other Blue Helmets during an alleged "disarmamnet" of Muslims!Everybody knew that Srebrebica Corps was established(3000 fighters) at the beggining but these clowns were happy that Muslims had "given up their weapons"!Pictures of the arr 100+ pieces of WWII vintage Russian PPshA-41 a couple of obsolete recoiless Rifles, a damaged Zis-3 76mm gun and a few of RPG-7 launchers,a few boxess of ammo and some mortars and hand granades...will never leave my mind!And,grining faces of the participans:Muslims"Ha,ha,we are taking a piss!!!" Dutch soldiers "You `re having a laugh,right?Who cares,its funny!Hello mum,how do I look on TV?"Morillon:"I`ve seen more modern weapons in Algeria in 1957!Cest la vie!I am dieing for a cognac!I hope that my beret looks nice!"What a bleeding joke!If they didn`t participate in a disarmament charade,Orich wouldn`t be able to slaughter so many innocent people!And,in the case of the unprovocked Serbian attack NATO should have a full moral authority to bomb them,and they would have my full support!And,I am a Serb!NATO and UN knew exactly what was happening.Number of casualities,their nationality,and perpetrators!

The only honorable people in the whole affair was a Dutch Government which resigned a few months ago after publishing a detailed report,which ,BTW,has exhonerated both Miloshevich and Karadzich from responsibility regarding a alleged massacre!

Naser Orich will not be arrested!He will eather vanish or he will be killed!Gang related murder ,I suppose!He knows to much,his confesssion will seriously undermine Srebrenica case,and we can`t have that,can we!

11 posted on Thu Sep 05 2002 1837 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by branicap
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To: Michael2001
you are most welcome
12 posted on Thu Sep 05 2002 23:08:51 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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To: branicap
Bravo brincap! You should have dropped that little coward when you had the chance, but in no way could you have known what he was going to do. Peace be with you brate...
13 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 00:57:59 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by FireWall
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To: branicap; vooch; getoffmylawn; DTA; joan; FireWall; kosta50; SANDNES
branicap, the experiences you describe are fascinating, tragic and chilling. I have no personal connection to the former Yugoslavia, but I hope that you and other honest people from the former Yugoslavia with first hand experience on Oric, Srebrenica and the Bosnian war have gone beyond a "justice will not be done" fatalistic attitude and have proceeded to the step of getting organized and promoting important truths to the policy makers and opinion shapers in the "west". Izetbegovic and his fellow criminals can and must be stopped from winning the PR war.
I believe that an organized campaign for truth and justice on Srebrenica should be spearheaded by advancing certain facts that are common knowledge in this forum and have a great potential for reversing the anti-Serbian hysteria if they are promoted to a degree that the western press cannot ignore. The points that I see as having not only factual validity but also the power to change western public opinion are the following:

(1) Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime are guilty of crimes in the Srebrenica area equal or worse than those attributed to the Bosnian Serb leadership. They committed many of these crimes while operating from the supposedly demilitarized safe haven of Srebrenica.

(2) The failure of ICTY to indict Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime despite overwhelming damning evidence constitutes irrefutable proof of its anti-Serb bias.

(3) The evacuation of Srebrenica was not a result of any major Serb attack but of orders by the Izetbegovic regime with the explicit goal to fraudulently present all military and civilian deaths as results of a "genocide".

(4) Major battles took place after the evacuation with at least hundreds (and most likely more than one thousand) of Muslim battle casualties.

(5) The bodies found are only around 2000, not 5000 or 6000 as fraudulently rumored and written in many reports.

(6) The recent Bosnian Serb report is consistent with the number of bodies found and with the irrefutable fact that a large number belongs to combat casualties. This report is more reliable than poorly corroborated reports from Muslim sources.

(7) The Dutch report, while understandably putting most blame on Mladic for civilian deaths after the Muslim exodus, finds very little evidence against Karadzic and none against Milosevic. On the contrary, it ascribes significant blame on the Izetbegovic regime for war crimes in the Srebrenica area as well as for sending the Muslim combatants of Srebrenica, along with hapless civilians, to a series of hopeless battles in order to gain a PR victory.

14 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 03:55:58 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by pythagorean
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To: branicap
Before Milosevic, were there often acts of brutality by (non-Albanian) Muslim police towards Serbs? Did it happen in the ‘80’s, ‘70’s, 60’s, etc.?
If this was known by you, and given that you were requested to coach - “As a distinguished judoist many times I was coaching young policemen on the request of their superiors.” - “request” doesn’t imply obligation, as they were rather asking a favor because of your expertise, (and not because you were working for the government), could you have refused to coach all Muslims? What would have happened if you said, “I refuse to coach Muslims as they are backstabbers and there’s significant chance they will use their knowledge to hurt Serbs?” Would they then have sent you just non-Muslims to train, or would they have foregone sending you any young policemen? It certainly doesn’t seem like you needed their business anyway: firstly you were a doctor/surgeon, and therefore had another job; secondly you said you were quite successful and well known, so you were probably getting enough students coming on their own, and not through the police.

And, unless Naser Oric cussed Serbs and denied the WWII massacre on the last day of the approximately 6 months of training in your class, could you not have kicked him out? Seriously, his statement and attitude were ominous, so could you not have told the police that you had a serious personal grievance with Naser, refunded them for future classes they may have paid up, and booted him out of your classes if he dared to show up again?

We were taken to the Padinska Skela Prison,thrown in the cell and half an our later "barbarians"arived.Prison guards reinforced by a Muslims from Sandzak!They would come into the cell with 10-15 of us and started kicking the s*** aout of us.Men,women indiscriminately!"Want to demonstrate you f*****g Chetnics,F**k your Chetnic`s mothers!People colapsing,being bitten sensless,all night.

You’re right, they did go on to do the same things to imprisoned Bosnian Serbs. Have you heard of a man named Slavko Jovicic Slavuj, and a book he wrote about his life in a concentration camp called "Silos" ([Serb] Oslobodjenje, 1997)?

His experience with Sandzak Muslims echoes yours, but on an even crueler level.

Song for Carla Del Ponte

The conditions cannot be described with words. Between 40 and 60 camp inmates were kept in cells measuring 5 by 5 meters [15 by 15 feet]. We were beaten daily. No words need be wasted on describing verbal abuse. The beatings were conducted by the local guards and the Bosniaks from Sandzak who were only passing through Tarcin. Anyone who wanted to torture and beat prisoners found open doors in "Silos". According to what I know, 25 inmates died in the camp. I saw those deaths with my own eyes, but it is possible that there were more of them.

15 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 04:59:13 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by joan
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To: branicap; joan; Destro; Voronin
Today,they are "democrats" and demand "Sandzak Republic" don`t speak Serbo-Croatian but Bosnian language and are ready to start trouble and demand NATO intervention!Watch Sandzak carefully--
I have always said since 1992- The Yellow brick Road theory...it will happen very shortly... when Djindjic loses the election....after that..
16 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 0544 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by smokegenerator
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To: joan
good info
17 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 0622 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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To: pythagorean; All
Pythagorean, excellent points, I would add:
(1) [Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime are guilty of crimes in the Srebrenica area equal or worse than those attributed to the Bosnian Serb leadership. They committed many of these crimes while operating from the supposedly demilitarized safe haven of Srebrenica.]

Izetbegovic as a supreme commander and Oric et. al as field commanders violated international law and Geneva convention by using civilians as a shield for military activities.

(2) [The failure of ICTY to indict Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime despite overwhelming damning evidence constitutes irrefutable proof of its anti-Serb bias.]

The fact that Oric walks free in Tuzla shows that IFOR provides shelter for alleged war criminal.

(3) The evacuation of Srebrenica was not a result of any major Serb attack but of orders by the Izetbegovic regime with the explicit goal to fraudulently present all military and civilian deaths as results of a "genocide".

ICTY judgement of 'genocide' in Srebrenica case is the most blatant case of dilution of the term genocide, practice that killed 200 Million only in 20th Century

Those killed are presented as "men and boys" although only 12 or so were below conscription age.

(4)[Major battles took place after the evacuation with at least hundreds (and most likely more than one thousand) of Muslim battle casualties.]

NATO recon planes were flying overhead -there is no secret what happened on the ground. (5)[The bodies found are only around 2000, not 5000 or 6000 as fraudulently rumored and written in many reports.]

Point 1:

Red Cross and other reports state only that people are missing, not killed. Many of those missing are found in other BA units and after the war voted on OSCE elections. Some of them live overseas in Ireland, Holland and United States without informing their families.

Point2: Oric troops killed over 1000 Serbs in vicinity of Srebrenica. ICTY may or may not use their bodies as a proof of the crime of Bosnian Serbs.

(6)[The recent Bosnian Serb report is consistent with the number of bodies found and with the irrefutable fact that a large number belongs to combat casualties. This report is more reliable than poorly corroborated reports from Muslim sources.]

That report is corroborated by Dutch NIOD report, and Dutch were not friendly toward the Serbs. It showed heavy military activity in Srebrenica. (7) [The Dutch report, while understandably putting most blame on Mladic for civilian deaths after the Muslim exodus, finds very little evidence against Karadzic and none against Milosevic. On the contrary, it ascribes significant blame on the Izetbegovic regime for war crimes in the Srebrenica area as well as for sending the Muslim combatants of Srebrenica, along with hapless civilians, to a series of hopeless battles in order to gain a PR victory.]

The point to remember is: Muslims have 55 years of experience. They walked free for crimes commited in WWII as Waffen SS : Communist regime exploited their fear of punishment and as long as they were obedient, they were safe. Only those who oposed Communists were prosecuted. The climate of lies was present in Bosnia for 55 years. Moslems became experts in deception. It has nothing to do with religion, but the religius norms do help.

18 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 06:38:44 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by DTA
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To: DTA
good addition to the essential points. Where did you see the info regarding that only 12 of the bodies found were under military age ?
19 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 10:09:12 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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To: vooch
Since I do not have the source ready, pls. disregard this info.
20 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 10:25:02 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by DTA
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To: pythagorean
Since I was included, I will respond as well. First let me say, this is an awesome post by all of you.
As far as brining Orich to justice, he will be dumped when he becomes a liability and a public affairs burden to those who are sheltering him. And branicap explaind what that means. For now, it's still not front-page news, so no one is a hurry.

We knew very well what the Taliban were doing, but they were our own creation and were needed for the now stagnant Caspean Sea oil project. When it becamse apparent that Osama was a "guest" of Mullah Omar, all of a sudden (!) the issue of (mis)treatment of Afghan women and widespread pederasty became front news items. Orich will follow suit, just as Noriega did, and just as Thachi and his gang will when the political climate changes. They are just "spares." There will always be plenty of Serbs willing to turn the tide and become loyal "allies" like the Northern Alliance did. This is all a chess game and small $hit-shoveling people like ethnic Tajiks and warring Balkanites are the foot-pounding peons doing the dirty work for the chessmasters.

Unfortunately, some of you still believe in justice, and all that crap. That's sad. If a policeman could not stop you and fine you, or even dragg you into jail, would you mind his radar? Might is right, and always has been, and always will be. Justice and all that is for the stupid and the naive, take your pick.

The sponsors from Washington have become very uneasy about international courts and mostly likely can't wait to wrap up the comedy show with Miloshevich and then pull the plug on the whole thing. Those who are building a case against Orich can probably look elsewhere but not in the Hague. That "court" will be shut down as soon as Miloshevich is "found" guilty.

21 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 11:18:39 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by kosta50
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To: All

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22 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 11:19:02 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by Bob J
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To: vooch; getoffmylawn; DTA; joan; FireWall; SANDNES
Since I was included, I will respond as well. First let me say, this is an awesome post by all of you.
As far as brining Orich to justice, he will be dumped when he becomes a liability and a public affairs burden to those who are sheltering him. And branicap explaind what that means. For now, it's still not front-page news, so no one is a hurry.

We knew very well what the Taliban were doing, but they were our own creation and were needed for the now stagnant Caspean Sea oil project. When it becamse apparent that Osama was a "guest" of Mullah Omar, all of a sudden (!) the issue of (mis)treatment of Afghan women and widespread pederasty became front news items. Orich will follow suit, just as Noriega did, and just as Thachi and his gang will when the political climate changes. They are just "spares." There will always be plenty of Serbs willing to turn the tide and become loyal "allies" like the Northern Alliance did. This is all a chess game and small $hit-shoveling people like ethnic Tajiks and warring Balkanites are the foot-pounding peons doing the dirty work for the chessmasters.

Unfortunately, some of you still believe in justice, and all that crap. That's sad. If a policeman could not stop you and fine you, or even dragg you into jail, would you mind his radar? Might is right, and always has been, and always will be. Justice and all that is for the stupid and the naive, take your pick.

The sponsors from Washington have become very uneasy about international courts and mostly likely can't wait to wrap up the comedy show with Miloshevich and then pull the plug on the whole thing. Those who are building a case against Orich can probably look elsewhere but not in the Hague. That "court" will be shut down as soon as Miloshevich is "found" guilty.

23 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 11:22:04 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by kosta50
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To: Wraith; wonders
Srebrenica bump.
24 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 13:19:52 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by getoffmylawn
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To: joan; smokegenerator; DTA; FireWall; vooch; kosta50; pythagorean; crazykatz; Kate22; All
#15
Joan,for you and all non-Yugoslavs a short lecture:

Police in all Yugoslavias,so far,had always been very brutal!Use of (un)"reasonable force" was a common norm!Yugo-policemen were very batton-happy!That was a fact of life!If you were arrested(for any reason)the chances that you will be beaten a little bit just for the sake of it,and to fear them in future vere big!Take my word for it!I have seen it so many times!It is the way they vere trained:"Remember,it is us against them!They tell jokes about us,they(population) think that were stupid!We have to stick together and show them who`s the boss!" was an informal lecture given to the young cadets in Police School in Sremska Kamenica inthe school caffeteria!And,they behaved accordingly.

I wasn`t working for the government,my relation with the police was sport related,and their request to train some of their guys was purely friendly request;if yo see that some civilian is better coach than your own than you will try to engage him to improve level of training of both your own(police) judo,karate teams and regular self defence training for the regular policemen.After some time,it went beyond that,into more serious work,full body guard training,personal protection, fire arms...

Police job was not very popular among urban people but was atractive for the people from the provinces,because it was a goverment job,steady income and opportunity to move into a town,the bigger the better!Naser Orich is a typical example:a peasant,not even from Srebrenica town but a smal village,as a policeman he finished his carrier in....Belgrade!I believe that he saw a traffic lighte for the first time in his life when he arrived there!As I said,ideal boy for the police!He was only one among the thousands.Don`t get me wrong,there`s nothing wrong with that!Ask yourself;who in US joins the Marines?New York intellectuals??Hardly!Californian surffers??Don`t think so!Mix a provincial background,sense of allienation in the big city,low oppinion of the "natives",indroctrination style;they don`t like you so show them who`s the boss and you get BRUTALITY as a final resault!Simple.

Joan,I and millions of other Belgraders or Serbians and Yugoslavs couldn`t care less who was Muslim,or Croat,or Serbian!And,I`m still the same!So,there was no way that I would refuse an invitation to coach a group of police,men in self defence on the ground of their nationality!Do you understand?If I had a time machine I would like to go 15 years back and kick the shit out of mujahedin Orich,with pleasure!But,maybe in some other life!To cut a long story short:if a p[olice is not under the control of democratic institutions;if an indenpendent body tor complains don`t egzist,you have brutality!Add a bit of national flavour and you have a grater brutality!

I`m affraid,Kosta,my friend,you re right!As usual.Good to hear from you again.

Naser Orich will never see the inside of the Hague cell!I predict for him a restaurant in some Turkish town or...six feet under,courtesy of CIA!

25 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 14:41:33 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by branicap
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To: branicap
Thank you, Branicap. Always fascinating to read your insights.
26 posted on Fri Sep 06 2002 20:29:04 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by kosta50
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To: branicap; joan; Destro; Tropoljac; Voronin; getoffmylawn; FireWall; Kate22
brani...I served four years Marine Corps and would not classify your description that you wrote. Many Marines are very intelligent and most of the Marines are looking for the adventure lifestyle like many of us have done or are leading.
The only run-ins I had with the Federal Police were the YU border guards during my reentry from the RS to Yu at the Zvornik border. Though I created a "language barrier" by dumbing down my knowledge of our language, they were firm but typical authority police type. I made the mistake of speaking German in place. A Serb woman then began speaking German to me, I played an instant dumby...

I really did not want to speak with anyone at the time due to tiredness, sore and hangover. If they pissed me off, my temper at that time was short and was very reflexive in my waryiness of others at the time due to the nature of the regional fighting.

The Bosnian Serb police and border guards were in one word, FANTASTIC. In my own opinion....

27 posted on Sat Sep 07 2002 03:02:28 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by smokegenerator
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To: smokegenerator
Smoke,no disrespect to the Marines!None intended!What I wanted to say is that a certain groups of people are atracted to the military/law enfocement!For various reasons:family tradition,national tradition,money,job security...
I didn`t say that Marines or Yugo policemen are stupid.It is just that Yugoslavs like telling jokes about policemen!

"Why a policemen always work in pairs?One can read,another can write!

"

And,BTW,many decent and professional guys among them!

28 posted on Sat Sep 07 2002 18:49:44 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by branicap
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To: getoffmylawn
Thank you for the flag, Good and Faithful Friend. So much to ponder here! I just got back from a long trip and will read and digest and reply more thoughtfully later.
branicap: Thank you so much for your posts. So much to think about. Oh my. Will write more when I am able.

29 posted on Sun Sep 08 2002 13:08:03 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by wonders
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To: branicap
there are also some very dumbf*ks in the marines as well.
I never had a run in with the YU police...hell, they liked me so well that they had one follow me around all day at one point. Well, pleasant of them to look out for my well-being...))

30 posted on Mon Sep 09 2002 02:53:48 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by smokegenerator
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To: vooch
If there ware so many killings on Bosnian Serbs during the period from 1992 - 1993 can you pleas let us know where from those people came to east Bosnia, and how is that we do not have any data of those people like we have on Bosnian Moslems.


31 posted on Wed Jul 14 2004 22:09:13 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by Ibrosl1923 (He is not a killer !!!!)
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To: Ibrosl1923; *balkans; joan; Wraith; wonders; DTA; GeraldP; Ronly Bonly Jones
The lived in Eastern Bosnia since recorded history began.
They didn't "come from anywhere"

The reason the numbers aren't well known is because the liberal mass media has supressed them, plain and simple.

32 posted on Tue Jul 20 2004 05:19:17 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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To: vooch; pythagorean
Now here's a blast from the past. I had forgotten all about this article and thought it was a new one until I scrolled down and to my surprise saw that I had posted a comment.
I really miss branicap's insights. Pythagorean still pops in now and again, but not nearly enough.

33 posted on Thu Jul 22 2004 03:59:27 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by getoffmylawn ("A pitcher has to look at the hitter as his mortal enemy." - Early Wynn, Chicago White Sox Pitcher)
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To: getoffmylawn
It sure is a great article, wonder why the Hum Warriors aren't braying for Oric's head ?


34 posted on Thu Jul 22 2004 0500 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) by vooch
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Thanks George..

[Risto the Great]

And it disgusts me that Macedonians somehow see the Serbs as their brothers or friends or whatever. That they somehow liked and had special friendship with us Macedonians. Serbs have never respected us, they always saw and still see Macedonians as 'Southern Serbs with a funny wrong accent'. They would stab the Macedonians in the back too if it was necessary.

Let me tell you, they are not our friends or brothers. They are just as big of enemies of Macedonia as you see the Bulgars and Greeks as enemies.

Totally agree.
At least the Bulgarians used to know what Macedonians were once upon a time. Either way it is difficult to think of any of them fondly in relation to Macedonia.

[George S.]

Bukefal well said didn't they try & force some macedonians to fight for them after the split of yugoslavia.The rom govt said no & the serbs sent them back.The serbs used to say there's only serbo croat language in yugoslavia.The serbs/bulgarians/greeks they divided macedonia up for themselves.So really there shouldn't be any love lost.

[vojnik]

well vojnik...we macedonians dont like the serbs because of many many reason...
two of the significant one´s are....
the occupation of "vardar" part of macedonia 1913.....and
the still today not recognition of our macedonian church.

I am aware as to what the Serbians did to Macedonia....

Bukefal well said didn't they try & force some macedonians to fight for them after the split of yugoslavia.The rom govt said no & the serbs sent them back.The serbs used to say there's only serbo croat language in yugoslavia.The serbs/bulgarians/greeks they divided macedonia up for themselves.So really there shouldn't be any love lost.

This isn't anything suprising Mladic spent 26 years in Macedonia commanding platoons, brigades etc for the JNA. It was even alleged he was hiding in Macedonia there were searches across Macedonia last year looking for him. His wife was from Skopje whether she was Macedonian I don't know and he also has a weekend house in Mavrovo.

I am also pretty sure everyone in this forum has established that Macedonia has been divided amongst Serbs/Bulgarians/Greeks/Albanians I don't see the necessity of this being repeated constantly and the repetition of the Serbian Orthodox Church denying the Macedonian Orthodox Church. At one stage during the Macedonian Orthodox Church Second Synod the Serbian Church recognised it's autonomy this was even backed by the Russian Orthodox Church. It was during the third Synod that the Serbian Church denounced it's decision and since that day every single Orthodox Church has turned it's back on Macedonia.

[Bukefal]

I am aware as to what the Serbians did to Macedonia....



This isn't anything suprising Mladic spent 26 years in Macedonia commanding platoons, brigades etc for the JNA. It was even alleged he was hiding in Macedonia there were searches across Macedonia last year looking for him. His wife was from Skopje whether she was Macedonian I don't know and he also has a weekend house in Mavrovo.

Thats true, he was living in Skopje. But its not just that. Many in Macedonia tend to respect and love many Serbs and Serb politicians who have nothing to do with Macedonia. It will amaze and sicken you to see how many Macedonians in the republic have a love for Milosevic and Karadzic and the Serb nation. Its just ridiculous.

They somehow see them as brothers, and are proud of them. Can you believe that? Which they show even in football and in listening and glorifying their turbo crap music and 'culture'.

[George S.]

The problem is what one country thinks their people are heroes the other sees them as terrorist or commiting attrocities & genocides.Evidence is the crucial factor that plays it's part.I have read & seen reports on the internet of how both sides are just as guilty as the other.But at the time no one listens until it's over.Isn't it odd that no one is charging from the bosnian side to the hague only from the serbian side.I'm not pro anybody but i'm for the truth.If whoever commits attrocities & genocides on normal people civil men,women & children on both sides should go to the hague..

[vojnik]

The problem is what one country thinks their people are heroes the other sees them as terrorist or commiting attrocities & genocides.Evidence is the crucial factor that plays it's part.I have read & seen reports on the internet of how both sides are just as guilty as the other.But at the time no one listens until it's over.Isn't it odd that no one is charging from the bosnian side to the hague only from the serbian side.I'm not pro anybody but i'm for the truth.If whoever commits attrocities & genocides on normal people civil men,women & children on both sides should go to the hague..

EXACTLY!!! That's spot on!

The reason I think Macedonian's in the ROM think of Karadzic, Mladic etc as hero's is because unlike our politicians there's banded together and fought a common enemy which we also share.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What I was meant to write was I am not 100% sure on the name of the town it is something close to the word dzer.

Next time write what you mean so there is no misinformation.

Youtube has 1000's of unbiased videos from the war that you can watch and find everything out for yourselfs.

So you keep saying, yet you haven't posted even one that corroborates your assertion that the Muslims started the war.

I don't understand why people here are arguing are you siding with the Bosnian Muslims? :S

It doesn't matter if it were Bosniaks, Serbs or Croats. We are being objective and logical. Are you able to do that? I don't understand why some people think we should automatically side with the Serbs just because they're Orthodox, clearly some Macedonians are either ignorant of historical realities, or they turn a blind eye to them for the sake of participating in 'pack mentality'.

Are people here also blind to the fact that it was the Bosnian Muslims who sided with Hitler in World War II.

Nobody is blind to that fact, but you seem to be completely blind to other facts. You've been hanging around too many Serbs or Macedonians that are sympathetic to Serbs, it seems quite familiar, some Macedonian will say 'yeah we have problems with the church and they occupied and oppressed us, but look at what the Muslims did to them!" Wake up. Look at what other have done to us. Macedonians need to stick up for themselves before they go on a crusade to stick up for those that have (and in some cases still) denigrated our nation.

[vojnik]

SoM go on Youtube type on Srebrenica watch the actual footage of Ratko Mladic not a report from CNN. Watch the trials of Slobodan you will soon find the reality of the war and the fairness of the trials conducted. I don't need to sit here searching for those videos again I think you are capable enough to do so yourself. About the church we have issues internally that need to be fixed before we can solve external ones. That quote you mention above about what some Macedonian would say I have never heard that in my life so I actually don't know where you got that from.

Nobody is siding with the Serbs the fact of all of this is that things happened in that war that many turn a blind eye to. The fact that if you watch Slobodans trial you will see evidence that shot Muslims had actually been redressed in civillian clothes by the west. My points are simple that the Serbs did do horrific things during the war but so did the Bosnians and the Croats and I am attesting the fairness of the trials conducted. For instance arresting 100 Serbs and Croats and then arresting 5 Bosniaks and Albanians most of which were aquitted or given short sentances (these numbers are exagerated but if you like visit the ICTY site and count them up)

Also if you read my previous statement as to where the Bosnians started the war I did say if my memory serves correct so please read things properly and don't jump to such conclusions. But as I said search Youtube I am sure people here are capable of it I am not going to go and surf Youtube again providing evidence for what I am saying to be ridiculed even more by people my argument is simple and fact.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't need to sit here searching for those videos again I think you are capable enough to do so yourself.

That is not the point. You made a statement and claimed to have video footage of it, yet several posts later and you are still yet to provide a single video in support of what you claimed. Rather than continually responding by telling me there are 100's of youtube videos, post one of them that demonstrates how the Muslims started the war. Otherwise, avoid making statements you're unable to substantiate.

About the church we have issues internally that need to be fixed before we can solve external ones.

While pertinent, that is a separate matter, and it doesn't prevent the SOC from recognising the MOC. Personally, I couldn't care if any of the other churches recognise us, but to downplay the matter by claiming there are other problems is the wrong way to go about it, particularly in the context of this discussion.

My points are simple that the Serbs did do horrific things during the war but so did the Bosnians and the Croats and I am attesting the fairness of the trials conducted.

You mean 'contesting' their fairness, is that it? What do you believe the percentage of crimes for each group were, and the percentage of those that should be in the Hague, with respect to each group - Serb, Croat and Bosniak? Are you also contesting the guilt of the Serbs that are there?

Also if you read my previous statement as to where the Bosnians started the war I did say if my memory serves correct so please read things properly and don't jump to such conclusions.

Like I told you before, if you want to be taken seriously then ensure that you can back up your statements with facts, as clearly, your memory doesn't serve you well.

I am not going to go and surf Youtube again providing evidence for what I am saying to be ridiculed even more by people my argument is simple and fact.

You are being "ridiculed" because you have not provided anything factual to corroborate your assertion.

[vojnik]

Here is a youtube video there are 4 parts to it they go for ages so if you have time and are able to understand Serbian have a watch. It's suprising that he isn't portrayed as the mosnter we see him on CNN on this video but we see him sending regards to the women, children and elderly of Srebrenica on buses he organised for them to transported to UN safe zones. You can find many on Youtube SoM I watched these videos the other week and have more important things in life to do at the moment to sift through youtube videos to prove my point to you. If you want agree with me or disagree it doesn't faze me

YouTube - ‪General Ratko Mladic u Srebrenici 3/4‬‏

[Vangelovski]

Vojnik,

In terms of the causes of the war in Bosnia (or any other parts of the former Yugoslavia since its collapse), I think they were the result of deep-seated political, economic and historical issues rather than one act of violence (regardless of who purpetrated that first act of violence).