Supporters of DUI wreck scaffolding of Kale church museum

[Pelister]

You reckon? I think the entire Macedonian Republic blames outside forces for the tragic state of affairs in Macedonia now.

I agree with that. I don't think they know how to stand up for their rights, and I don't even think they care all that much about it. Their thoughts are filled with false ideals - E.U bullshit, which Gruevski and UMD prey on, cleverly to their political advantage. Meanwhile, we all hang on the brink of political extinction, because Gruevski believes it is necessary 'for membership'. What a lie! If one accepts that the terms that the Greeks have put to us are immoral, unethical, illegal, and based on lies, why engage them? If we are not blocked from the U.N, why must we expose our identity in such a way? While Macedonians try desperately to resist the lies spread about them by the invading 'Greeks' what is Gruevski doing? He has literally 'handed over' our political identity to our enemies, as though it were something to be meddled with. Gruevski is meddling with our identity, our history ... our existance, and at the same time, telling the entire world that the invading 'Greeks' have a case. I mean could anyone be doing more for the Greeks right now than Gruevski? He has given the Greeks all the political legitimacy they could ever hope for, when it comes to Macedonian territory, and the Macedonian 'space'.

[Komita]

Our biggest mistake in 2001 was that we didnt go all the way, even if it meant that we would of been bombed by NATO and sanctions.
Atleast it would of been written in the history books that a proud nation called macedonians once lived in the Balkans and vanished in their fight for a sovereign country instead of existing as a american protectorate controlled by an albanian minority.

[Pelister]

Our biggest mistake in 2001 was that we didnt go all the way, even if it meant that we would of been bombed by NATO and sanctions.
Atleast it would of been written in the history books that a proud nation called macedonians once lived in the Balkans and vanished in their fight for a sovereign country instead of existing as a american protectorate controlled by an albanian minority.

If he ended the 'negotiations' tommorrow, it would take an enormous amount of pressure off the country. Then, he could deal with the Albanians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Our biggest mistake in 2001 was that we didnt go all the way, even if it meant that we would of been bombed by NATO and sanctions.
Atleast it would of been written in the history books that a proud nation called macedonians once lived in the Balkans and vanished in their fight for a sovereign country instead of existing as a american protectorate controlled by an albanian minority.

When you write without your usual hype and anger, you can be very logical (like in the above), it reminds me of the old Komita I once knew.

[fyrOM]

So it clearly was not a war. The order NOT to shoot is evidence enough for me to distinguish this from a war.

Swiftness and all-out is what was lacking. The pace was dictated by the government pushing for containment instead of extermination. The war…I fully agree RTG it was Not a war…was a drama show to show the people and the world something is being done while in reality nothing was being done but waiting for the show to end sign the documents and move on to the after party for drinks and finger food.

I had a cousin who was involved in the conflict and can confirm that soldiers were told to keep their heads down and Not shoot while the Albanians were shooting at them…as if such an order wouldn’t make you bitter. What adds to the bitterness is the realisation you weren’t called upon to truly defend but to play your part as an actor in a drama and if and when the director…read politicians…wants a sacrificial lamb just to show losses were suffered on both sides you are supposed to just cop it and take one for the team…many losses were in ambushes and a lot of people believe they were staged.

Having one gun pointed at your front and one pointed at your back by your own officers and government isn’t much of a choice and a sad realisation of keep your head down or become an insignificant statistic they will be pissing on by the days end. The war was lost near the start…if not before it began…by the time nato started threatening to bomb as many as possible should have been killed off even if you had to back off in the end instead of wasting time with containment. The government mentally ambushed the army leaving them with their hands tied. What it sounds like…the army should have done this or that…is you are speaking of a coup which is easier said than done.

[Risto the Great]

What it sounds like…the army should have done this or that…is you are speaking of a coup which is easier said than done.

I know it would have been difficult.
But it would have been a better country for Macedonians as a consequence.

OM, I don't have any cousins who were involved in the "conflict" of 2001. It is difficult for me to feel particularly close to the emotions of the soldiers. However, I would like to know if you feel comfortable calling your cousin a great defender of our country. Being told to put your head down and take the shots is far from being a form of defence! To call them "braniteli" and have to hear about their heroism sounds hollow to me.

The results of the efforts or lack thereof are obvious. They were not braniteli/defenders they were victims.

[Phoenix]

Our biggest mistake in 2001 was that we didnt go all the way, even if it meant that we would of been bombed by NATO and sanctions.
Atleast it would of been written in the history books that a proud nation called macedonians once lived in the Balkans and vanished in their fight for a sovereign country instead of existing as a american protectorate controlled by an albanian minority.

I agree almost 100%...the only point of difference is that I don't believe any foreign power can wipe us off the face of the map, only our politicians are capable of that.

My greatest regret from 2001 was the total ineptitude of our political leadership which continues to poison our nation to this day.

In 2001 the most defining moment of this ineptitude was seen in the battle for Aracinovo, I'm not a military historian by any stretch of the imagination but I doubt if there's another moment of embarrassment that would match the moment when hundreds of insurgents and their American instructors were safely escorted out of Aracinovo by the very organization that had trained them in the first place.

Possibly one of the greatest successes of Macedonian special forces operations in our history was reduced to farcical proportions when bus after bus of cowering insurgents were escorted out of Aracinovo as elderly Macedonians threw rocks at the retreating NATO convoy.

Not one 'rogue' element existed within our ranks to blow the shit out of that convoy, Americans and all...that act alone would have put Macedonia on the map, never to be removed...

[osiris]

Very well said komita hear hear.

[Blagojce]

I agree almost 100%...the only point of difference is that I don't believe any foreign power can wipe us off the face of the map, only our politicians are capable of that.

My greatest regret from 2001 was the total ineptitude of our political leadership which continues to poison our nation to this day.

In 2001 the most defining moment of this ineptitude was seen in the battle for Aracinovo, I'm not a military historian by any stretch of the imagination but I doubt if there's another moment of embarrassment that would match the moment when hundreds of insurgents and their American instructors were safely escorted out of Aracinovo by the very organization that had trained them in the first place.

Possibly one of the greatest successes of Macedonian special forces operations in our history was reduced to farcical proportions when bus after bus of cowering insurgents were escorted out of Aracinovo as elderly Macedonians threw rocks at the retreating NATO convoy.

Not one 'rogue' element existed within our ranks to blow the shit out of that convoy, Americans and all...that act alone would have put Macedonia on the map, never to be removed...

As i understand it, the 'rouge' soldiers were moved far from that area before the jackals were removed from their positions.

[Phoenix]

As i understand it, the 'rouge' soldiers were moved far from that area before the jackals were removed from their positions.

I wonder if we will ever get the full story of what happened that day...personally, I think whatever happened that day rocked not only Trajkovski as commander-in-chief of Macedonian forces but also the top brass at NATO and within the American command itself...little Macedonia dealt the bully one hell of a blow...

Unfortunately Trajkovski didn't posses the political will to make the most of the situation that Macedonia's elite forces had achieved against all odds...it was a defining moment, the fabled, 'fork in the road' that could have put Macedonia on a totally different path, hopefully one away from total subservience to outsiders and to an enemy within...

[Volk]

Unfortunately Trajkovski didn't posses the political will to make the most of the situation that Macedonia's elite forces had achieved against all odds...it was a defining moment, the fabled, 'fork in the road' that could have put Macedonia on a totally different path, hopefully one away from total subservience to outsiders and to an enemy within...

The UCK terrorists where preparing for to attack Skopje, and the Macedonian special forces had one foot on their neck (along with their US commanders), then the unthinkable...

If we did not win that battle (and we did) fighting would have broke out in Skopje and out all civil war follow (Ljupco's grand plan to come to fruition)

I hope some members here remember what the Braniteli did, before even stripping them of that title..

[indigen]

Swiftness and all-out is what was lacking. The pace was dictated by the government pushing for containment instead of extermination. The war…I fully agree RTG it was Not a war…was a drama show to show the people and the world something is being done while in reality nothing was being done but waiting for the show to end sign the documents and move on to the after party for drinks and finger food.

I had a cousin who was involved in the conflict and can confirm that soldiers were told to keep their heads down and Not shoot while the Albanians were shooting at them…as if such an order wouldn’t make you bitter. What adds to the bitterness is the realisation you weren’t called upon to truly defend but to play your part as an actor in a drama and if and when the director…read politicians…wants a sacrificial lamb just to show losses were suffered on both sides you are supposed to just cop it and take one for the team…many losses were in ambushes and a lot of people believe they were staged.

Having one gun pointed at your front and one pointed at your back by your own officers and government isn’t much of a choice and a sad realisation of keep your head down or become an insignificant statistic they will be pissing on by the days end. The war was lost near the start…if not before it began…by the time nato started threatening to bomb as many as possible should have been killed off even if you had to back off in the end instead of wasting time with containment. The government mentally ambushed the army leaving them with their hands tied. What it sounds like…the army should have done this or that…is you are speaking of a coup which is easier said than done.

It could have been and should have been but now we have a Ramkovist "reality".

OM, what is happening to you, did someone spike your drink with some "sanity pill"? You seem to be making a lot of sense here lately and I am not sure if it is one and the same poster using your login.

[Vangelovski]

It could have been and should have been but now we have a Ramkovist "reality".

OM, what is happening to you, did someone spike your drink with some "sanity pill"? You seem to be making a lot of sense here lately and I am not sure if it is one and the same poster using your login.

He does that every now and then but eventually reverts back to his usual self.

[fyrOM]

I would like to know if you feel comfortable calling your cousin a great defender of our country. Being told to put your head down and take the shots is far from being a form of defence! To call them "braniteli" and have to hear about their heroism sounds hollow to me.

The results of the efforts or lack thereof are obvious. They were not braniteli/defenders they were victims.

RTG some people relish conflict and war…the sorts itching for any excuse to start a fight…but a lot of people are like my cousin who would rather avoid a fight if possible but if it starts he has no problem…way of thinking I mean…in going full force. As he told me he didn’t go in full of joy…he is considerably older than me and had a family and was one of the reservists who were called in despite his age but as he saw it you gotta do what you gotta do.

Initially he saw himself as one of the braniteli but later when he was ordered to stop shooting while still being shot at was an extremely demoralizing moment for him and I would imagine many others…its like you said feeling more of a victim realizing his government that sent him into it had left him out to dry. It pissed him off no end but once you are there too late.

I think all who served are braniteli…no one went running to the back…but became victims by the politics and the government at the time. I wouldn’t disparage the name of anyone who served for their service at the time but for IF true anyone involved in staging some of the ambushes the Macedonian troops suffered.

[fyrOM]

OM, what is happening to you, did someone spike your drink with some "sanity pill"?

I’ve been trying to loose some weight and limiting my chocolate and coca cola intake…my 2 vices…smoking and drinking don’t count…so I have had grumpy moment or two.