Financial Crisis in Greece

[Soldier of Macedon]

If Macedonia IS so insignificant then why not just let RoM be what they want......

It is not a matter of the West 'letting' Macedonia be called Macedonia. They just don't respond to spineless people who don't assert themselves. Macedonia is run by such spineless people. Were Macedonia to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void' tomorrow, what do you think would happen? Would the West start a war? Would every country in the world commence an embargo? I doubt it. Sure, things may be tough for a little while (as opposed to the current 'paradise' which people are enjoying now!), but in the end, Macedonia will prevail because it is prepared to stand on its own feet, and there is nothing anybody could do about that. The West doesn't always get its own way.

[Brian]

It is not a matter of the West 'letting' Macedonia be called Macedonia. They just don't respond to spineless people who don't assert themselves. Macedonia is run by such spineless people. Were Macedonia to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void' tomorrow, what do you think would happen? Would the West start a war? Would every country in the world commence an embargo? I doubt it. Sure, things may be tough for a little while (as opposed to the current 'paradise' which people are enjoying now!), but in the end, Macedonia will prevail because it is prepared to stand on its own feet, and there is nothing anybody could do about that. The West doesn't always get its own way.

SoM you're absolutely right about collectively saying 'Stop' and 'Piss-off'.

Just look at tiny Iceland. Everyone said piss-off to the banks, IMF, ect. They were told they were "finished for good" and now they are showing healthy growth and doing things their way.

What I meant by "let them" is stand to aside and with no interference including bribing politicians - the first half of the Macedonian weakness.

Crvenkovski and his vampire SDSM sucked the country dry and left it in a weak position unprepared for 2001. To further F things up Georgievski and the Bible basher Trajkovski let the Kosovo refugees in setting the scene for 2001 where Boskovski piss-farted around with an incremental defence and a weak as piss response of suggesting splinting the Western part off culminating in the utterly spineless FA capitulation. To further rub salt into the wound Crvenkovski gave many of the refuges citizenship to give the FA teeth.

RoM has too many traitors but also a spineless public letting the traitors do their deeds while waiting for a 'saviour'. If they only would listen to their own sayings, "Kaj sto nema sloga nema boga". Who do they think is going to save them? When they realise the answer is Noone but themselves maybe things will change but I don't know if it will.

A war is inevitable and loosing ground to by time should be a temporary tactic to regroup, not the whole solution forever because eventually they will loose so much ground their position will become untenable and then like it or not they will run out of time too because their opponent will think 'you were once big, but I can take you now so it's time.'

It's frustrating to watch the Albanian advancing day by day and 'supper patriots' (read traitors) Gruevski and Ivanov doing nothing at all while the public do even less and wait for their 'savoir' - maybe they think Christ is going to come at the end of 2012 a 'fix' everything - but they are in for a rude awakening when (not if) the Albanians call for a split and point to all the illegal mosques and land they've either squatted on or bought up and say, "I'll have half" and the international community says legally they have titles to it. How many farms have been abandoned by Macedonians leaving for the West or cities/towns and Albanians just moved in? Either they act together or die together - it will be their physical death and our collective identity death.

It's sad any way you look at it but what's sadder is when you hear RoM say to the diaspora it's your name too so come back and do something to fix it. WTF? They're overwhelmingly the majority and they need outside 'boots on the ground' - the Macedonian curse, "Someone should do something about this".

They need to use the existing laws like knocking down illegal buildings, arresting vandals during protests, arresting people hoarding large stashes of guns as terrorists, securing the borders, recording and publicising every stupidity the Albanians do, give up on the IA dream, tear up the unfair FA and demand equal rights for all and protest continually for those equal rights. The international media has to pick up the story eventually and when that story is a demand for justice, democracy, equal rights for everyone (all highly prized Western values) it shames the Western powers into inaction - the Macedonians cannot out-gun the Western powers but they can outsmart them - but of course it's 'someone should do something about this' time.

The point was the West DO care about 'insignificant' Macedonia that's why they are bribing politician and the media and setting up unfriendly NGO's to wipe them out but it's only the people who can make enough noise to stop this - they have to win the information/media/public (world) opinion war first, it's now or soon too late.

[George S.]

This is the rom average citizen response that i got.When i asked about the continuing name negotiations.They said Gruevski is not going to change the name.I said he has to rom(skopje).Greeks have said no.The ordinary citizens say he is just playing around with them he will not change the name & they say that he will call a referendum to ask the people what they think?I think personally gruevski wants for the sake of getting in nato & eu to change the name.But will he really call a referendum or consult with the people.There are many doubts i mean the ventilator flag wasn't consulted on with the people.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What I meant by "let them" is stand to aside and with no interference including bribing politicians - the first half of the Macedonian weakness.

They will always try to meddle in affairs that shouldn't concern them, that is to be expected. That doesn't mean they're always successful, because they're not. The fact is, the fate of Macedonia is in the hands of her people and government, it always has been.

......the Macedonians cannot out-gun the Western powers but they can outsmart them......

True. But when you have knuckleheads like Gruevski in power, who is reaching his 6th year as PM, who continues to implement and enforce the treacherous Interim Accord and Framework Agreement, who gambles with the future of both the identity and sovereignty of Macedonia, being smart for the good of Macedonians is not on his agenda. But many Macedonians in and out of Macedonia can't see this because they are uninformed or misinformed.

The point was the West DO care about 'insignificant' Macedonia that's why they are bribing politician and the media and setting up unfriendly NGO's to wipe them out...........

The West have their tentacles spread in most other countries also. Macedonia isn't a special case and I doubt they could give a shit if a Macedonian ethnic group existed or not. If you have the impression of Macedonians being 'wiped out', it says more about our own weakness rather than the strength of the West.

.......they have to win the information/media/public (world) opinion war first, it's now or soon too late.

The Macedonian people in Macedonia also need to win the information war at home, think about life after DPNE/SDS, overthrow the current politicians who are guilty of treason, declare the IA and FA void, replace the FA with a more appropriate arrangement befitting a society of equal civic rights but where Macedonian culture remains prevalent in its own national home, etc. But for that to happen, the Macedonian people in Macedonia need to first start showing that they care about their future. It was never going to be easy, but to make an omelette you need to crack a few eggs.

[Brian]

Brian
I will give you a detailed response in due course, in the interim I'll just put you on notice that this sort of driblle will cost you dearly,

Oh no! The 'stone lion' (your avatar) is going to get animated like in a horror movie and hurt me.LOL.

It's fun to poke fun at Greeks, I get it, but it's only fun when it's at their expense and not when you're the one saying silly things and it "costs you dearly". Re-read your posts and you might see what I mean.

I have always tried to look at your posts with objectivity and provide support when I believed you were right or refrained from joining the chorus of posters who thought you are a lunatic.........congratulations on proving them right!

When your talking nonsense and think you're actually putting down the other guy it tells me there's something not quite right here.

By "chorus" do you mean like the posters who no matter what I say and no matter how much factual and verifiable evidence I provide still come up with, "the answer is aliens" (even though I have not once said aliens) and think they have said something hilarious? and the "chorus" who jump in because all they are capable of is to recognise when someone is being made fun of even though they have no idea why and just flop out there tiresome repeated slurs like retreads? - at least they could try to make their jabs witty and entertaining to read but that would require a functioning brain.

More to follow...

The 'art' of the put-down requires not just a sharp tong but a sharp and quick brain to match the repertoire of insults flying in a witty way lest you come off low-brow and brutish, not a slow dull brain that needs to go away for a few days ("More to follow") to think of and formulate a come-back line.

fortuneately I work for a living and don't have a lot of time to post pages of absolute garbage

Some posters thought "too poor to protest" was the epitome of a piss-week argument but with logical argument it was possible to show why some people might come to that conclusion for themselves. You on the other hand want to blame your job! for not having a few seconds to spare to write a line or two from a computer??? If that's not a piss-weak argument, what is???? Please do explain to everyone how you work near 24/7 and why it is reasonable for you not to have a few moments to spare.

By the way, you're not the only member of the MTO who works - ask around, I think most people will tell you they do and yet somehow they still manage to respond without the need to declair they need week off.

Or is it that with a clouded brain everything appears as clear as mud in a beer bottle and you need a few days to use those precious few moment you have to spare per day to formulate one or two quick put-down lines?

and create thread afte thread of bullshit which has no relevance to the MTO or Macedonians in general....more to follow!

Borrowing other peoples lines now? because your too incapable of formulating your own?LOL.

Despite the relevance of my posts to the MTO being self evident I bothered to explain it for the slow ones a few days ago. The fact that you are now still using this line several days after it was explained to zero says your slow brain hasn't caught up yet. Will you need a week to understand my explanation on top of the week to formulate a quick come-back line or two? So shall I expect your response in a fortnight or so??? How fortunate, I will be able to sleep soundly for a fortnight before I experience your barrage of witty stinging insults.

Why don't you re-read your exchange with Voltron, realise your stupidity and pull your head in before you make a greater fool of yourself than you already have. To fall to the ground wounded and let a Greek win without him having to fire a volley is pathetic.

Here's a song for you - I thought you might enjoy the 'fairies' in their tutus. Your hippy greenie bleeding-heart liberal insane ideas suggest you have a few tutus in your cupboard too.

(@ALL - mind you I like this song and other songs of his so no anti-gay bashing please.

And before Vangelovski uses this as an example to accuse me of being older than him again, just know it is possible to know things without personally being there and experiencing them.)

Ken Laszlo - Tonight ( Official Video 1985 ) - YouTube

[Phoenix]

Brian, do you have a genuine interest in Macedonian affairs, or have you found MTO to be a suitable vehicle for posting your countless bullshit posts and youtube crap...?

[Brian]

Brian, do you have a genuine interest in Macedonian affairs,

Why do you ask?

Has not every post I have made which has had direct bearing on Macedonian matters demonstrated a genuine interest?

Has not every post I have made which does not specifically refer to Macedonia but more world wide matters have an indirect effect on Macedonians not only in the wider world but also in Macedonia?

If you feel that my posts are such to prompt you to ask such a question then there must be many example from which you could draw on to show why you question if my interest is genuine. True? Then please provide just one from those many examples, if you can, and I will show you it's genuine relevance to Macedonians in case it's value escapes you.

If per chance your question relates to my preceding post to makedonche I would also ask you to read the exchange between Voltron and he and asses at what level it begins and at what level it ends with each post being more silly/absurd than the last.

It is almost a sport at the MTO to make fun of Greeks, I get it, they are wrong on so many points, but in the zeal to make fun of them is it not counter productive to the "genuine" interest of Macedonia and Macedonians if one looses sight of rational thought and uses silly or irrational comments to do so making you look stupid/irrational/incapable of logical thought ie then the joke is on you. Even this telling a Macedonian to 'pull-his-head-in' is also a demonstration of genuine interest for Macedonia.

By all means if you want to put down Voltron for any genuine reason then do so and I will sit back and enjoy the show for there is no love lost between us - as I have said to him in the past, but directed to all Greeks, we cannot be friends because friendship begins with genuine mutual recognition of who we are and genuine respect for each other. If we cannot be genuine friends it does not mean we cannot discuss things on an intellectual level showing common decency and civility towards one another.

This attitude of civil behaviour goes also to Macedonia's other enemies eg the ethnic Albanians - let them be yahoos re shouting death to Christians and throwing stones BUT record everything on video and post it out on all media making so much noise about it that the Western public will have to hear it and NOT the typical Macedonian response of waiting for someone else to champion the cause eg foreign media because they wont. Then arrest the Albanians on incitement to violence laws and discharging a missile with the intent to cause grievous bodily harm laws and also film the arrests and spread that news far and wide. Macedonians need to win the information/propaganda wars because there's no way they can out-gun the West. Stooping to the Albanians' uncivil behaviour of Nazi salutes and chanting 'gas the Albanians' only back-fires on the Macedonians. It is what I have been saying all along. Does this line of thinking not show "genuine interest in Macedonian affairs"?

or have you found MTO to be a suitable vehicle for posting your countless bullshit posts

Read the above argument. Show me a "bullshit posts".

and youtube crap...?

All videos, bar the rare one like the above and occasional others like it, have had to do with direct or indirect Macedonian issues. Would you rather a video or would you rather I transcribe them and post pages to read or just forget about it?

Even the above video, although extremely rarely used, still has a purpose towards "genuine interest in Macedonian affairs" if it sufficiently embarrasses makedonche to pull-his-head-in and stop making Macedonians look like uncivil illogical idiots.

You do realise this site can and is read by many others around the world? If we all have a "genuine interest in Macedonian affairs" should we not treat our posts with great care like we were saying them on TV to present the best image for Macedonians?

[Rogi]

Brian,

You're allowing what could be a simple post, to become an over-extended and wide-ranging gripe where sentences of value are few and far between.

As someone who has largely pulled back from posting, like many others I do read the threads and it has become rather tiresome to see lengthy posts of little to no relevance to the thread topic.

So, at the risk of offering some unsolicited advice; if you must post something that is off-topic, even if in response, it would serve you well to keep your posts compact and succinct.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I agree with Rogi.

Brian, you need to ease up with your posts. I don't doubt that there are some relative points you make which are worthy of further discussion, but your long-winded posts discourage people from paying much attention to them. You write as if you're verbally ranting. This needs to stop. Slow it a down a little and think about what you write rather than impulsively writing as you're thinking.

[Brian]

Brian,

You're allowing what could be a simple post, to become an over-extended and wide-ranging gripe where sentences of value are few and far between.

As someone who has largely pulled back from posting, like many others I do read the threads and it has become rather tiresome to see lengthy posts of little to no relevance to the thread topic.

So, at the risk of offering some unsolicited advice; if you must post something that is off-topic, even if in response, it would serve you well to keep your posts compact and succinct.

Good point guys. Undoubtedly there are going to be some off-topic things said but they do need to kept to a minimum. I went back and reread my posts and what 'jumped out' was hows about taking your own advice Brian?

...should we not treat our posts with great care like we were saying them on TV to present the best image for Macedonians?

I guess we all need a "my brother's keeper".

[George S.]

From reading your posts at times i'm thinking there is an innate hate of someone or something if you could focus that & channel that into constructive opinions i'm sure people will agree with you but at the moment it's like a dog's breakfast.You do make some good points at times but they get cluttered up by some bs.So don't take it personally,work on it & you might succeed in producing some great articles at the mto.Also don't take it badly as we only giving friendly advice.

[Risto the Great]

So, at the risk of offering some unsolicited advice; if you must post something that is off-topic, even if in response, it would serve you well to keep your posts compact and succinct.

I would contend that even on topic responses should (mostly) be compact and succinct.

[makedonche]

Good grief give it a rest, you're sounding silly.

"makedonche's law"???
I think people might confuse your login ID with Macedonians in general and you're making us look bad. What is it with Macos from Australia?

You've been chasing Voltron over successive posts and sounding more absurder as you go along - he said landminds, not nukes ect. Your argument sounds like eg someone told you to, "punch that guy in the face", and using your logic it's like you replied, "well if punching someone hurts then, and if you want me to hurt them, then why don't I just take an axe to their head, it will definitely do a better job if hurting them is what you want". Duhhh...like there's a reason why it was JUST punch them in the face there also is a reason why it's JUST landminds and not other things you mentioned - limmit the action.

Also you're sounding like a bleeding-heart liberal trendy greenie nut job.

Get it through your head - YOU CANNOT HELP EVERYONE WHO COMES TO YOUR DOOR and NOR SHOULD YOU BE OBLIGED TO.

Send them home, in my opinion, and if it takes landmines to keep them back then so be it because they certainly are not going to be polite and civil and just accept your 'No' and turn back.

There are literally billions, with a B, of people in Asia and Africa who want to live in the EU or West and it is a never ending stream of great numbers.

Many cannot afford the trip but out of so many Billions, that even if a small percentage can afford the trip, it still means many millions. How would you like RoM to become 90% Asian, 5% Macedonian, 3% Albanian and 2% other - it would certainly solve the Albanian problem, why don't you write a letter to Gruevski and suggest it to him.

Toby (a well earnt identifier, self-proven time and again)

Good grief give it a rest, you're sounding silly.

Which part was sounding silly? - not that I give a shit what you think, but humour me with your 2 page explanation of how you percieve things and exactly what was silly and why.

"makedonche's law"???

Obviously far too complicated for your childish powers of comprehension.

I think people might confuse your login ID with Macedonians in general and you're making us look bad. What is it with Macos from Australia?

Here's another opportunity for you to rant on for another few pages - explain why people would confuse my login with Macedonians in general - nowhere does it stipulate that I represent all Macedonians on this forum? "Make us look bad" - fairly big assumption that other members here consider themselves as having anything to do with you, in case you haven't noticed there is no queue waiting to join the friends of "Bozo/Fyrom/Toby", last time I checked you were on the border of having to provide I.D. to prove you're Macedonian & to be able to post here any longer - so don't be too concerned about making "us" look bad, there is no "us" in Toby. "What is it with Maco's in Australia" - now I know you need psychiatric help - if you hadn't noticed, the Maco's in Australia haven't sold out their name/identity/history! Still how would you notice when all you do is rant pages and pages of absolute garbage that has no value to Macedonians, the MTO or the truth for that matter.

You've been chasing Voltron over successive posts and sounding more absurder as you go along - he said landminds, not nukes ect. Your argument sounds like eg someone told you to, "punch that guy in the face", and using your logic it's like you replied, "well if punching someone hurts then, and if you want me to hurt them, then why don't I just take an axe to their head, it will definitely do a better job if hurting them is what you want". Duhhh...like there's a reason why it was JUST punch them in the face there also is a reason why it's JUST landminds and not other things you mentioned - limmit the action.

Aaahhh Toby I love it when you give me all the ammunition I need to prove you're a wanker and can't grasp basic comprehension right before all to see - for your purpose I will write slowly so you get it, but feel free to let me know if I'm writing too fast for you! I wasn't "chasing" Voltron anywhere, I was commenting on threads I have an interest in - fuck knows why I'm explaning this to a moron like you! If you even had a basic understanding what I was trying to get Voltron to wake up to you would be classified as a 6 year old with half a brain, you obviously have'nt reached that mental capacity yet, so in simple terms I was poniting out to Voltron that weapons of war should not be used in times of peace and if you are going to use weapons of war then why just stop at land mines (that's landminds according to your spelling which shows just how uneducated you are), why not do a pre-emptive nuclear strike to resolve the matter before it becomes a problem? Do you get it now or would you like me to write it in crayon for you with some pictures? The purpose of the point was to get Voltron to come up with solutions to the immigrant problem without having to use weapons of war, moreso for the Greek's to come up with the solution instead of external sources having to provide them with solutions therby being self reliant, hence "makedonche's law" - if you don't get it now then go back to primary school and start all over again!

Also you're sounding like a bleeding-heart liberal trendy greenie nut job.

When you make statements like this, back it up with facts, this is your opinion only - just remember, opinons are like arseholes - everybody has one, just so happens that your opinions mean jack shit which is not surprising coming from an arsehole like you!

Get it through your head - YOU CANNOT HELP EVERYONE WHO COMES TO YOUR DOOR and NOR SHOULD YOU BE OBLIGED TO.

The relevance of this is? in the context of my converstaion with Voltron?
Where did I say 'HELP EVERYONE' ?

Send them home, in my opinion, and if it takes landmines to keep them back then so be it because they certainly are not going to be polite and civil and just accept your 'No' and turn back.

"iN YOUR OPINION" - there in lays the problem, your opinion- just like arseholes- everybody has one, just happens that yours is worth jack shit. Still I'd bet your opinion would change if you were the one being sent back. So looking at your reponse you obviously think landmines are an acceptable deterrent, just for the record can you also list what other weapons of war are "acceptable" deterrents. What do most other nations do to prevent border infilltrations from illegal immigrants?

There are literally billions, with a B, of people in Asia and Africa who want to live in the EU or West and it is a never ending stream of great numbers.

And why do you think that is Einstien? ( another chance for you to dribble to your hearts content), I'll give you a clue, it's not because they discovered there are no landmines to stop them!

Many cannot afford the trip but out of so many Billions, that even if a small percentage can afford the trip, it still means many millions. How would you like RoM to become 90% Asian, 5% Macedonian, 3% Albanian and 2% other - it would certainly solve the Albanian problem, why don't you write a letter to Gruevski and suggest it to him.

This demonstrates your stupidity very clearly for all to see! Where in any of my posts have I advocated/suggested/welcomed ROM becomming like this? RoMacedonians are leaving willingly to become Bulgarians and work elsewhere, as long as they do this then they deserve what they get! Why don't YOU write to Gruevski and tell him to put landmines around all ROM's borders - let me know what response you get.

Congratulations on wasting my time having to respond to something that wasn't even directed at you, next time why don't you just leave Voltron to respond for himself instead of polluting this thread and providing more support for the Greeks!

[George S.]

Brian we left the most important thing till the end you must have humour or it won't work.
So practice makes perfect.

[Brian]

Congratulations on wasting my time having to respond to something that wasn't even directed at you, next time why don't you just leave Voltron to respond for himself instead of polluting this thread and providing more support for the Greeks!

There's no point in arguing with someone who doesn't even understand they don't understand.

I'm going to remind myself of

...should we not treat our posts with great care like we were saying them on TV to present the best image for Macedonians?

The posts are there for anyone to read - I'll let the record speak for itself.