Financial Crisis in Greece

[Brian]

I think a liberal will get elected since that's what most Greeks seem to want, less austerity more benefits. I and Voltron are Americans so we don't know that much about politics in Greece (and I say this Voltron since you support the Golden Down...you obviously don't know anything about their evils).

As for America I might end up voting for Obama again, I wanted Newt Gingrich but he dropped out as a conservative nominee.

Hi SirGeorge, thanks, I needed a laugh. The wording was fantastic.

You say Voltron doesn't know much about Greek politics because he supports the Golden Dawn or "Golden Down" as you say. I'm not going to say I like them because of their anti-Macedonian position, but from a Greek perspective, where Voltron is coming from, Greece needs a thorough audit and firm stance like Iceland did - the banks are robbing Greece blind and every other political part is on the take and in bed with the banks and only trying to piss down the backs of the average Greek while trying to convince them it's really a nice warm shower instead.

The Golden Dawn may or may not be evil but if they are true patriots, then from a Greek perspective, they are the ONLY party Greeks should consider. If I had to guess I think they will get a lot of votes this time, but maybe not enough to win - Greece still has too many slime-balls slushing around in their piles of ill-gotten money who like it just the way it is, bring on the austerity. Gotta vote with Voltron on this one.

It's funny because you couple this with your position on Obama - you actually voted for him??? and you are thinking of voting for him again??? WTF guy???, Obama has been a worst disaster than bumbling Bush and a rotten snake-in-the-grass bringing in the NDAA like a sly prick on New Year's Eve after saying he would first veto it, then saying it would not include USA citizens, and when the truth came out the Senate said his office SPECIFICALLY DEMANDED the inclusion of USA citizen in the Bill! Do you even know how evil the NDAA is (see the thread on "Republican Candidates..." on the MTO)?

Further he has sidestepped congress in authorising wars directly from the Executive Branch - an act of treason! Further, no legitimate records ie Birth Certificate, School Records, ect can be found to substantiate he is even eligible to run for Office let alone hold Office and his Social Security Number is a proven fraud. And you want to vote for him AGAIN??? WTF?

Just to go from bad to worse, you say you want the NeoCon Gingrich - a self confessed proponent of a post industrial totalitarian state and NWO (also see "Republican Candidates..." thread).

Voltron at leasts wants Ron Paul - a Constitutionalist whose past (20 years worth) of voting in Congress has been absolutely consistent with his principles. Gotta vote with Voltron on this one.

Heck! I gotta vote with "doesn't know much about politics" Voltron on everything.

Maybe your pro-Banks stance in Greece and pro-Banks in the USA (via the politicians you like) says a lot more about you than you'd like - got a Swiss bank account or two?

Then you have...

1. Allow German economists and regulators from the German government to control all the money that is loaned out to Greece and not the Greek government. This was suggested a while back but Papandreou got angry at the idea. It wouldn't hurt Italy to consider this too.

Yeah, let Greece loose all sovereignty, good idea, it was a German made-up country anyway.

5. Protestors need to stop, nothing is being accomplished from it. Throw more tear gas, release hound dogs, use pepper spray. The police are a bunch of fat idiots that just stand there and get paint with yoghurt thrown on them....wtf?

Yeah, they should all go home the rat-bag bastards making it hard for people wanting to get around town. Howz about suggesting to them to count how many white navy beans are in a packet, just to pass the time before making bean stew.

Thanks for the laugh anyway.

Hey Voltron, do you think you could convince the Golden Dawn to go for

2. Re-visit the Macedonian issue. Recognize the minorities and cease the name dispute at once...it had gotten to the point where it is childish.

you might win some friends in and out of Greece.

[Voltron]

Arlington, its been a while. You by any chance go to Saint D's in Elmhurst ? Anyway, Ive been here little over a decade, I have a pretty good idea of the parties here and who they are. They are the same has-beens thats been in government for the past 40 years since the junta fell.

Below, are the positions of the party you say are evil.
Google Translation is not perfect, but you get the idea.

- Termination of the Memorandum. Audit of debt and all loan contracts from 1974 to today and deny payment of illegal and burdensome debt

- Creation of special audit teams to seek those responsible for the squandering of public money in all ministries and government agencies. Referral to a special court, imprisonment of offenders and confiscation of their property.

- Abolition of senator privileges and restriction of their earnings to pay an official middle tier. Elimination of state funding to parties.

- Immediate nationalization of banks that have received capital injections under the guarantee of the Greek public and private merger of banks in a strong national bank. Delete bank debt of Greek families with social criteria.

- Establishment and delineation of Greek EEZ and start drilling in all regions with confirmed oil and gas

- Investment income from the nationalization of banks and our energy reserves in national production in order to again become self-sufficient country.

- Ensuring the country's borders from the Special Forces of the Greek Army. Re-distribution of anti-personnel landmines.

- Immediate arrest and deportation of all illegal immigrants. Sui generis offense is whatever a foreigner. Penalties will not be served in prisons but in specialized detention facilities, which will also produce work for the government.

Brian, as far as recognizing minorities, I believe taking RP's approach to it will solve our problem. I made it my signature. We may disagree on some things but at least you understand my POV.

[George S.]

Europe braces for crunch Greek election

Europe braces for crunch Greek election

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/europe-braces-for-crunch-greek-election/story-fn7j19iv-1226347692446

May 05, 2012 9:42PM


GREECE-VOTE

A man checks the lists of the polling stations on the eve of the Greek general elections in Athens on May 5, 2012. Picture: Louisa Gouliamaki / AFP

Greece goes to the polls, Europe worries
Voters "have had enough of austerity measures"
Chance Neo-Nazis could win a seat in parliament

NOT only Greece but also Europe braced today for an election that polls indicate will decimate the two main parties and fail to produce a clear winner, sparking market fears about fresh eurozone turmoil.

In comments widely quoted by Greek newspapers on the eve of Sunday's vote, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said that if Greece's new government deviated from its commitments the country would have to "bear the consequences."

"Membership of the European Union is voluntary," the minister from the eurozone's chief contributor to Greece's 240 billion euros ($314.0 billion) in bailouts and the main proponent of European belt-tightening was quoted as saying.

Greece has written off a third of its debts, is in its fifth year running of recession, one in five workers is unemployed, its banks are in a precarious position and pensions and salaries have been slashed by up to 40 per cent.

With Portugal and Ireland also getting aid and Italy and Spain on shaky ground as well, last year there were worries of some sort of break-up of the eurozone. These fears have subsided in recent months but have not completely disappeared.

For markets, it is Greece's vote rather than France's presidential decider, also on Sunday, that "weighs heavier" in investors' minds, said Valerie Plagnol, director of research at the Credit Suisse bank.

Holger Schmieding, economist at Germany's Berenberg Bank, said there was a 40-percent risk of Greece leaving the eurozone this year, with a "high" chance that no stable government willing to implement more reforms can be formed.

Europe's press shared these worries, with Germany's Spiegel saying Greek politicians were behaving like "alchemists", while Belgium's Le Soir said it was "vital" for the eurozone that a new government is formed soon.

Germany's centre-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung daily said that efforts throughout "southern Europe" to cut spending and implement reforms must continue, otherwise "the crisis could escalate badly."

Election campaigning has been marked by voter anger with Greece's two main parties over the cuts that the country has been forced to promise in return for its bailouts. In June new savings of 11.5 billion euros have to be found.

"People are spending half what they used to," Panos Ioannidis, 41, the owner of a flower shop in an up-market area of Athens, told AFP. "If in June wages go down another 30 percent, we are expecting the worst."

The two main parties, the socialist Pasok and the conservative New Democracy, want to be cut more slack on the terms of the bailout, and many of the smaller parties want to tear up the agreement entirely.

"We need to break from this corrupt political system of lackeys of foreign imperialism," Petros Alachmar, 31, an activist from far-left Syriza party, one of several expected to steal votes from Pasok, told AFP late Friday.

"We have had enough of austerity measures."

Voters are also fed up corruption and cronyism, while immigration has also been an issue. The neo-Nazi Golden Dawn, completed with swastika-like emblem, may enter parliament for the first time in nearly 40 years, polls show.

The election is being fought over "a mixture of economy, immigration and national humiliation," said analyst George Sefertzis.

New Democracy is expected to win the most votes but not enough to govern alone, forcing leader Antonis Samaras into a coalition with smaller parties. If no coalition is formed, new elections could be called.

"Our place in Europe and the euro will be decided on Sunday," Pasok leader Evangelos Venizelos, 55, told a rally in Athens' central Syntagma Square, the focal point of sometimes violent protests in recent years, late Friday.

[George S.]

Greek elections to break stranglehold of mainstream parties

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9248025/Greek-elections-to-break-stranglehold-of-mainstream-parties.html

Years of economic mismanagement by Greece's two main parties will see a range of smaller political movements do well at the polls, reports Alex Spillius
A Greek Socialist party (PASOK) supporter cheers as party leader leader Evangelos Venizelos (unseen) delivers a speech during the main pre-election rally of the party in the central Syntagma square of Athens, in front of the Greek parliament building, on 04 May 2012
A Greek Socialist party, PASOK, supporter cheers as party leader leader Evangelos Venizelos delivers a speech during the main pre-election rally of the party in the central Syntagma square of Athens, Greece Photo: EPA
Alex Spillius

By Alex Spillius, Athens

3:30PM BST 05 May 2012

Comments7 Comments

Terence Quick may have an English name, but the ring tone on his mobile phone could not be more Greek.

It is set to the national anthem, and it rings frequently as he sits in his central Athens office explaining why his party, Independent Greeks, is going to pull off a major surprise in today’s parliamentary election.

“We are very optimistic. We strongly believe we are entering a new era, that Greeks want to end the cycle of domination by the two big parties,” said Mr Quick, who has taken a break from his career as a television presenter to become the party’s chief spokesman.

The polls suggest he is right. After forming just a few months ago, Independent Greeks is poised to win nine per cent, which could make it a significant power broker in negotiations to take place this week to form a coalition government.

Other small parties from the Left and Right are set to prosper, with up to 10 expected to win seats. Most want to renegotiate or tear up the £110 billion European bailout agreed last year, which propped up the economy but brought severe austerity with it, cutting government wages and pensions by 30 per cent, slashing budgets and raising taxes.
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Even the two major parties that reluctantly supported the bailout, the socialist Pasok and centre-Right New Democracy, want more time for Greece to pay its debts. The latter in particular argues that the rescue plan focused too much on debt and not enough on growth - a complaint now echoing across Europe.

But having alternated leadership of the country for 30 years, building up an inefficient, corrupt and eventually unaffordable paternalistic state, both parties are set to be punished by voters for years of mismanagement.

Typically they shared 80 per cent of the vote, but now may not even win the 50 per cent needed to renew their uneasy coalition of the past six months in the caretaker government whose technocratic leader, Lucas Papademos, is stepping aside.

Without a stable government, Greece could fail to meet its debt obligations which could leave the EU obliged to withhold the next tranche of the bailout. The viability of the euro itself could then be called into question all over again.

Like most Greeks, Mr Quick, who is descended from an Englishman from Corfu, does not want the country to leave the euro.

But like many of his compatriots he also speaks of an “economic occupation”. The Left blames international bankers for humiliating the nation, while Right-wing populist forces like Independent Greeks blame Germany and tap into resentment at atrocities committed during the Second World War.

“We are the victim of German loan sharks. We are under German occupation again and I truly believe we are living under an economic Fourth Reich,” he says.

Even more alarming to those hoping for a sane political discourse in the coming months is the rise of Golden Dawn, a far Right party that critics say has strong neo-Nazi tendencies.

It denies that label, despite outfitting its thuggish volunteers all in black, and despite pictures on the wall of its Athens headquarters of members giving the fascist salute at a torch-lit night gathering.

Long part of the political fringe, the party is now forecast to win parliamentary seats for the first time.

“We talk about the survival of the nation, of the Greek identity, the economy and illegal immigration and people are listening,” said Yiannis Vouldis, a muscular 65-year-old with a skull tattooed on his left bicep, and one of the party’s candidates in the capital.

Anything from 450,000 to two million undocumented workers, chiefly from South Asia, Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan, have arrived in Greece over the past 20 years, exploiting a weakly controlled border with Turkey and numerous ports.

Parts of central Athens have turned into ghetto-like neighbourhoods where drug users inject openly and muggings and burglaries are regular events.

Golden Dawn has been blamed for vicious attacks on immigrants and Mr Vouldis boasts that squads of his organisation’s volunteers have cleared out illegal immigrants from squats and hotels where they live five or six to a room. “We don’t like violence but sometimes there is no other way to remove someone from an area,” he said.

The spectre of Golden Dawn taking their place in parliament causes many Greeks to shudder. But they will probably be overshadowed by Left-wing groups, which are also confident they will perform better than ever. The Communist Party of Greece, unreconstructed in its pro-Soviet ideology, a self-described progressive coalition called Siriza and the Democratic Left, the most moderate of the three, could earn 25 to 30 per cent between them.

The rise of radical parties from both ends of the spectrum has raised fears of further social turmoil and evoked memories of the brutal civil war between communists and Rightists in the late 1940s, which filled the vacuum left by the German-Italian occupation.

Politicians and members of the public alike speak of a country at a turning point.

“I know our history and I know a resurgence of the Left will bring trouble from the Right,” said Katya Larisaiou, a café owner.

In his last speech before returning to the sanctuary of academia, Mr Papademos warned that the election would “determine Greece’s future for decades to come”.

Antonis Samaras, leader of New Democracy, appealed for Greeks to support his party because a coalition government “would not be in the interests of the Greek people”.

“Weak governments are easier to blackmail and manipulate,” he told his party’s final rally on Thursday night. He is likely to find tonight that his plea fell on deaf ears.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Here's an interesting extract from a Brisbane Times article.

Up to an unprecedented 10 parties have been projected to win more than the three per cent minimum threshold for a parliamentary seat. That includes the extreme right Golden Dawn, which has been riding high on the emotive issue of illegal immigration, promising to clean up crime-ridden, ghetto-like city neighbourhoods and mine the country's borders to stop more migrants getting in.

"People are not choosing smaller parties because they believe in their agendas," political communications expert Spiros Rizopoulos said. "I doubt if anyone has ever read an agenda of a smaller party. It's because they want to protest a decision that has been made" that led Greece into the bailouts and the ensuing austerity.

http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaking-news-world/greek-election-critical-and-uncertain-20120506-1y6ld.html

[Phoenix]

...That includes the extreme right Golden Dawn, which has been riding high on the emotive issue of illegal immigration, promising to clean up crime-ridden, ghetto-like city neighbourhoods and mine the country's borders to stop more migrants getting in.

Shit, I thought Australia's 'Pacific Solution' was the height of red neckery...it's good that the 'greeks' are here to bring a certain degree of perspective to any madness imaginable...I wonder if Julia turned to this policy of blowing up migrants, maybe that would improve her polling...?

[Coolski]

where does Vinožito fit into this spectrum?

[Phoenix]

where does Vinožito fit into this spectrum?

I don't think they contest national elections(?)

[George S.]

France, Greece and Germany election results send austerity shockwaves through Europe

France, Greece and Germany election results send austerity shockwaves through Europe
graph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9249627/France-Greece-and-Germany-election-results-send-austerity-shockwav

The stunning victory of the French Socialists and wipe-out of mainstream parties in Greece sent shock waves on Sunday night crashing throughout the continent of Europe.
France, Greece and Germany election results send austerity shockwaves through Europe: Supporters of Socialist Francois Hollande celebrate in Paris
Supporters of Socialist Francois Hollande celebrate in Paris Photo: EPA
Bruno Waterfield

By Bruno Waterfield, Devorah Lauter in Paris and Matthew Day

8:38PM BST 06 May 2012

Comments5 Comments

François Hollande's election threws down the gauntlet to Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, who has railroaded the eurozone into agreeing a new "fiskalpakt" treaty enshrining Germany's austerity doctrine.

The economic doctrine of austerity, to cut the burden of state spending to free up the economy, has ruled supreme with the support all of Europe's leaders, the European Union and financial markets.

But political leaders were on Sunday night conceding the consensus had been shattered beyond repair.

With Europe's economies plunging further into recession and as unemployment in the eurozone breaks record levels, voters demands for a new approach had finally become to great to ignore.

The popular backlash to EU imposed austerity to the centrist New Democracy and Socialist parties in Greece threatens the existence of the euro itself.
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Greece is potentially ungovernable as a minority government must try and pass a new raft of austerity measures next month which are a condition of an EU-IMF bailout and Greek membership of the euro.

In France, while Hollande, the Socialist President-elect is a centrist, he is sitting on a powder keg of resentment at measures that his government will have to pass if it is not spark a meltdown of financial markets.

He has refused to ratify the treaty unless the eurozone and EU also sign up to a "growth pact".

Mr Hollande also horrified Berlin by sneering at the idea that France should change its constitution to enshrine a "debt brake" outlawing Socialist spending levels.

In a meeting in Berlin next week, Chancellor Merkel is set to warn the French President, that weakening austerity pledges would rattle markets and undermine investor confidence at a critical time for the eurozone's economy.

She will remind him that support for the eurozone austerity pact is the condition for European Central Bank support for struggling financial institutions, many of which are French.

Dubbed the "Iron Chancellor" domestically, she will not climb down for a Socialist president who is close to the German Social Democrats ahead of elections in Germany next year.

Mrs Merkel's governing coalition suffered a fright of its own at the ballot box yesterday after appearing to lose its ruling majority in the state of Schleswig-Holstein.

Although the German chancellor's personal popularity remains strong the Christian Democrats-Free Democrats coalition has struggled in a series of local elections over the past 12 months, with the junior party seeing its popularity collapse.

Pressure on Mr Hollande to back away from radical policies and implement the austerity measures demanded by Mrs Merkel will come from the EU and financial markets.

Lord Glasman, a senior adviser to Ed Miliband, the Labour leader said that avoiding a reaction from financial markets would make Mr Hollande cautious and push him into the arms of Germany.

"There is very little chance that the financial markets will give Hollande the room to be radical. Mitterrand, elected in the heyday of Thatcher, was forced to abandon policies by the markets," he said.

"That was before the euro, which is locked to political conservatism."

French officials in the defeated Sarkozy administration have predicted economic chaos for highly indebted France, which owes most of its debt to foreign investors.

"I am very worried for the French economy," said Gilles Carrez, budget rapporteur in the French parliament for Mr Sarkozy's UMP party. "We have made considerable efforts in the past three years to manage the crisis," he said.

Mr Carrez said that markets were keenly aware that President Sarkozy had brought the French state deficit down ahead of schedule to 5.2 per cent of GDP.

"The slightest let up will see us skid off course. Hollande proposes a return to a spiral of raising spending and civil servants," he said.

"As he has to make compromises with Communists and Greens, we are heading for the worst. The markets have not yet reacted, as we have scrupulously respected our deficit reduction commitments. But if they see the hatches even slightly opening - a U-turn on retirement reforms, say – the punishment will be immediate. The markets will judge the Socialists not by their promises but by their actions." On May 16, the French treasury will seek to raise a billion euros on the markets, and all eyes will be on how well it fares.

Mr Hollande has promised to "dominate" financial markets, and early on in his campaign, stated that finance was his "greatest enemy", words that might come to haunt to him.

On May 30, new unemployment figures for April are due. Mr Hollande can expect bad news and a spate of industrial redundancies and plant closures, including household names such as Carrefour, which were postponed during the elections, are expected. The losses will anger trade unions and threaten to ignite social conflict in the opening days of his presidenc

[Coolski]

Here are the results and distribution of seats in the Greek election. Golden dawn won 21 seats, which says alot.

It seems that the government will be ND in coalition with far left parties, or with far far faaar right parties.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/may/06/greece-elections-results-map

I've tried to look up the policies towards some of those parties with regard to Macedonia. I didn't bother looking at the right wing parties, but after looking at KKE, I couldn't find out if they had a clear position on Macedonia or not.

[Daskalot]

I would love to see the Nazi Greeks in parliament, then the world will really know the true face of Greece. Why not Nazi Greeks for president as well?

[Vangelovski]

- Termination of the Memorandum. Audit of debt and all loan contracts from 1974 to today and deny payment of illegal and burdensome debt

Hahahahahahaha I couldn't get past the first one..ahahahahahaha

What is "illegal" debt? My mortgage could be classified as "burdensome debt", I wonder if the bank will accept a similar proposal?

[makedonche]

Voltron

- Immediate arrest and deportation of all illegal immigrants. Sui generis offense is whatever a foreigner. Penalties will not be served in prisons but in specialized detention facilities, which will also produce work for the government.

We would have to come there and arrest half of you and deport you from Macedonia!

- Ensuring the country's borders from the Special Forces of the Greek Army. Re-distribution of anti-personnel landmines.

Again, we would have to come there and draw the real borders and re-distribute the landmines!

[Voltron]

What is "illegal" debt? My mortgage could be classified as "burdensome debt", I wonder if the bank will accept a similar proposal?

To answer your question, you do have the right to not pay if you choose to. Paying your debt is a financial obligation not a moral one. If a bankruptcy suits your interests for yourself than you do have an option to take it. Millions of Americans today are short selling their home or just giving it back to the banks since its not worth the amount they are paying for. Banks are now restructuring debt for those very same people that cannot afford the payments, they simply cannot take role of a real estate agent with being tied down to so many forclosed properties so they opt on taking some losses. When the pressure is on they find a way.

What amazes me the most is the notion that taxpayers do not have the same rights as lenders do. Why is it that Banks such as Dexis, Lehmen Bros, Fannie May have the right to subsidise their debt from taxpaying citizens yet the average Joe cannot ? Isnt their debt burdensome to their business ? Wasnt the financial meltdown due to their negligence, their mismanagement ? But if I was to screw up managing my loans and overextend myself I get my property confiscated. They on the other hand get bailed out, bonuses and business is usual.

[Voltron]

Voltron

We would have to come there and arrest half of you and deport you from Macedonia!

Again, we would have to come there and draw the real borders and re-distribute the landmines!

Not to be a dick, but you should of applied that tactic on your borders with Kosovo. You would of saved us all the spread of these islamist idiots running rampant close to our borders today.