Nikola Gruevski

[Buktop]

Buktop, I just gotta say 'very commendable' on your part to come out and admit you were wrong about the EU and it's benefits to Macedonia etc. etc.

I mean, it must have been a very difficult thing for you to accept. You've gotta be devastated considering how many hours, days, weeks and months you've spent on the internet tirelessly discussing your views, arguing, debating & posting links. It's as though your whole life's work over the last two years has been a complete waste of time. One thing's for sure though, you're a trooper!

The 'UMD' is very fortunate to have such a resilient supporter like yourself.

The EU was a very minor part of my internet discussions, and my personal opinions are malleable depending on the changes in circumstances. My original position was in favor of accession into the EU, my position changed once the EU criteria had changed to include finding a solution with Greece, to a policy of no name change for entry, and seeing this final development, perhaps the accession to EU is not the right path at the moment, though I do believe that we should continue reforming and modernizing.

My years of discussions were not a waste of time, and neither was I advocating for the EU the entire time. But I thank you for your compliments

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

The question on my mind is, in your view, what is the cost of freedom...in dollar terms? So far, you have argued that its too expensive.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

The question on my mind is, in your view, what is the cost of freedom...in dollar terms? So far, you have argued that its too expensive.

So far I have argued that Macedonia is not in a position of sufficient sustainability in terms of it's freedom, especially considering one of our biggest economic partners also happens to be our biggest oppressor. Until we are capable of finding alternative routes of trade and supply of oil/gas (which do exist, and are very feasible) I see a repeat of the 94-95 situation, and particularly with a questionable government, I want to eliminate the possibility of even further capitulation. I would love to be able to see a free Macedonia, I would love to see a worry free, healthy and wealthy nation and people, and that is why I analyze the situation as I do. I see the past, and I apply it to the present, granted several changes in conditions, but economically, a very similar situation to what once resulted in the biggest capitulation in Macedonia's modern history.

The question you should be asking is, why hasn't Macedonia learned from the blockade of 94-95?

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

Were you one of the "Yugoslavs" that wailed out impending doom and economic collapse when Macedonia declared its independence? Apparantly the price was not right back then as well.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

Were you one of the "Yugoslavs" that wailed out impending doom and economic collapse when Macedonia declared its independence? Apparantly the price was not right back then as well.

No, we got out right on time, had we stayed, we most certainly would have faced far graver circumstances.


Let me ask you, what would happen to Macedonia, currently, if the supply of oil/gas coming from Greece suddenly stopped?

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

What would happen to Macedonia if martians invaded?

Vassels will always have an excuse to argue against freedom.

[Rogi]

The price of oil would perhaps slightly increase, depending on how much the Republic of Macedonia has in reserve, because of the costs involved in establishing new delivery routes and the urgency.

But the oil supply itself will not falter, only the delivery route. Unlike in the early 90's, Macedonia now has established relations and trade with many countries, many of whom are oil exporting nations.

In fact, in terms of closing the borders, if Macedonia were to close its' border with Greece, that would cause a more dire situation for Greece in its' current economic standing, than the situation created for Macedonia, if Greece were to close the border.

That could even create a 'tit-for-tat' situation, where Macedonia may stop exporting electricity to Greece in the summer as they usually do, etc.


The likelihood of Greece, an EU member, to place an economic embargo against Macedonia, a UN member and EU candidate country, is almost non-conceivable.

[Onur]

Let me ask you, what would happen to Macedonia, currently, if the supply of oil/gas coming from Greece suddenly stopped?

I just wanna remind you something;

Nothing comes as free. Everything has a price to pay, including your nation`s sovereignty.

Dont forget, there are nations which created from zero point at the bottom of poverty and suffering(like my nation). Your country`s significance should be considered as primal objective above everything else, as well as your national pride. IMHO, a country`s freedom has no value, so no one shouldn't make a bargain for it in any case.



P. S: I am sure the experts in Turkey would like ROM to have Aegean Macedonia and a border with us. Then we wouldn't have to think about where to construct oil and natural gas pipelines. Turkey bypasses Greece in all Caucasus pipeline projects, so our only option is Bulgaria currently I am sure the authorities doesn't prefer them either but it`s the only choice other than Greece.

[makedonche]

Quote:
"P. S: I would like ROM to have Aegean Macedonia and a border with Turkey. Then we wouldn't have to think about where to construct oil and natural gas pipelines. Turkey bypasses Greece in all Caucasus pipeline projects, so our only option is Bulgaria currently We don't prefer them either but it`s the only choice other than Greece."

Onur
I would like this very much as well!!!! Get back our stolen land, build a pipeline and bypass Greece and Bulgaria at the same time.....now that would be an economic victory of monumental proportions!

[Buktop]

At last someone capable of giving me an answer! I was beginning to worry that no one had been listening.

The price of oil would perhaps slightly increase, depending on how much the Republic of Macedonia has in reserve, because of the costs involved in establishing new delivery routes and the urgency.

Earlier in this thread I cited the exact increase in transportation costs of Oil that was obtained via Bulgaria increased the cost of transporting crude oil from $19 per ton to $41.50 per ton. A 218% increase in transport cost (citing this as an example as there are no other actual credible scenarios to calculate from, I do also take into consideration the increase in business relations with other nations, but must also remind you that we still currently rely on Greece/Solun for up to 60% of our energy needs). And since we all know that several of Macedonia's major thermal power plants (the ones responsible for the largest electrical production) are run on gas, not only does the cost of crude increase, but the cost of electricity increases as well... Last time we resorted to coal reserves, unfortunately these coal reserves are of a very low-grade and environmentally hazardous type.

But the oil supply itself will not falter, only the delivery route. Unlike in the early 90's, Macedonia now has established relations and trade with many countries, many of whom are oil exporting nations.

right, but the transport cost is the main concern, as I highlighted above, transport costs increase total cost and any increases in energy costs are proven to lower economic development and production, also straining the average citizens disposable income, as well as potential investments.

In fact, in terms of closing the borders, if Macedonia were to close its' border with Greece, that would cause a more dire situation for Greece in its' current economic standing, than the situation created for Macedonia, if Greece were to close the border.

Though I agree it would harm Greece, I would need you to cite some numbers claiming the potential harm to Greece (even in it's current condition) would outweigh that of the harm to Macedonia. I also must mention that our borders with Greece in 94-95 were closed, in and out, it was not a partial blockade.

That could even create a 'tit-for-tat' situation, where Macedonia may stop exporting electricity to Greece in the summer as they usually do, etc.

True, but then we lose that major source of revenue from not exporting, when we export, money flows into the economy, and when Greece imports from us, money flows out of their economy and into ours. Greece would also be able to secure electricity potentially through Bulgaria, and yet again, I see more harm for the Macedonian side than the Greek side.

The likelihood of Greece, an EU member, to place an economic embargo against Macedonia, a UN member and EU candidate country, is almost non-conceivable.

Crazier things have happened. Considering a Blockade has already occurred I would tend to lean towards the possibility of a re-occurrence, rather than to rule it out as a possibility, EU candidacy does not provide us inviolability, nor does UN membership completely protect us from unilateral acts of aggression.



I must also say, if Macedonia were to attempt to assert it's sovereignty and freedoms, now would probably be the best opportunity that has presented itself in the past 20 years. My biggest disappointment is that the Macedonian government still has not learned from the past, and has not put into effect the proper reforms or strategic positioning that it should have.

[Buktop]

I just wanna remind you something;

Nothing comes as free. Everything has a price to pay, including your nation`s sovereignty.

Dont forget, there are nations which created from zero point at the bottom of poverty and suffering(like my nation). Your country`s significance should be considered as primal objective above everything else, as well as your national pride. IMHO, a country`s freedom has no value, so no one shouldn't make a bargain for it in any case.



P. S: I am sure the experts in Turkey would like ROM to have Aegean Macedonia and a border with us. Then we wouldn't have to think about where to construct oil and natural gas pipelines. Turkey bypasses Greece in all Caucasus pipeline projects, so our only option is Bulgaria currently I am sure the authorities doesn't prefer them either but it`s the only choice other than Greece.

Onur, my countries freedom and it's ability to maintain and provide that freedom are my primary objectives.

In 1994-95 my country was Economically blockaded, and my government signed away our freedom and our historical right. Why? Because of Economics.

This is why I am trying to learn from history and make sure it isn't repeated.

[Makedonetz]

Prime Minister: VMRO will not trade with people's interests

VMRO-DPMNE remains strongly focused on the process of finding a solution to the name issue, because Macedonia needs this for the purpose of faster progress, but at the same time VMRO-DPMNE does not intend to trade the interests of its people and state for anyone or anything. The ones playing the card of blackmail, pressure and threat should know they waste their time, said VMRO-DPMNE leader Nikola Gruevski at the celebration of the party's 20th anniversary in downtown Skopje late on Tuesday.

"They have put all kinds of pressure in the past three years, with the biggest pressure coming in the last 4-5 months, but this has not only yielded results, but has also been a waste of time", said Gruevski.

"If there is readiness for the row's settlement, which would not harm anyone, including Republic of Macedonia, and if such concrete proposal is acceptable to the other side, VMRO-DPMNE will schedule a referendum, at which two million citizens will pass the decision that the party will accept, regardless of the outcome. This is an issue that cannot be resolved with force, but with reason. At the same time, we clearly say that we will not allow to be deprived of something that is rightfully ours", he stressed.

Gruevski stated VMRO-DPMNE did not give up on Macedonia's strategic goal of becoming EU and NATO member.

"We will not stop with the reforms, because we implement them for the better future of our people", he added.

Pertaining to the global economic crisis, the VMRO-DPMNE leader said he expected Macedonia to finish 2010 with a two-percent GDP growth, largest among regional countries.

Gruevski emphasized that despite the crisis and the strong pressure over the name issue, VMRO-DPMNE is supported by more people compared to 2006, when it came to power.

On occasion of the party's 20th anniversary, Gruevski thanked all ideologists, founders and activists, as well as those who supported and worked on the idea for independent and sovereign Macedonia.

According to him, VMRO-DPMNE is a party of the people, not of elites.

Yesterday's event was attended by party members from the entire country, Government members, representatives of other political parties etc.

Then Mr Gruevski tell EU and greece to go enjoy your club med and leave us Macedonia alone to flourish and deal with border issues and human rights.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/15495/45/

[malenka]

So, why didn't he say this to Rasmussen when they met recently, just after that long speach towards the people?

[Jankovska]

So, why didn't he say this to Rasmussen when they met recently, just after that long speach towards the people?

Coz he is a dickhead

[Prolet]

Jankovska, Did you listen to Jane Mavchev's interview on SBS radio? Nikola Gruevski will never change our name.