South Australian Premier Mike Rann, an enemy to Macedonians

[Bill77]

I am pointing out the division that you are creating with those comments, and you do a great disservice to the diaspora every time you support that division.

A)Because I support UMD that makes me less Macedonian? B)Which policies am I defending? C)What kind of Makedonce are you when you are dividing the diaspora even further?

A)You support UMD policies, that makes you less Macedonian. And don't give me this shit about Meto's own opinion. If he speaks against UMD's opinion, then he should have been removed instantly.

B)Making excuses for UMD's President, is Defending. And don't be so stupid to ask who or what you were defending.

C)I am a Makedonce that tries to seperates the wheat from the chaff who does not care less which part of the world he or she comes from.

[Phoenix]

I am not trying to have a go at anyone, and I am not excusing UMD, I am asking isn't it the job of AMHRC to look out for these sorts of issues? I am glad we have people like MP who are making an effort to report these sorts of activities, but doesn't AMHRC, or any other Australian org for that matter, have people who are supposed to identify these issues? Isn't that what these organizations do?

Buktop, this was after the AMHRC explained their position in this matter...

[Phoenix]

Why are you turning this into a UMD issue? All the organizations in Australia missed this and it is THEIR JOB to be on the lookout for these sorts of issues, that is why they formed their organizations. AMHRC, as many here have claimed, have a long history of being active in Australia and to think that they didn't even know about this or don't have people looking for these sorts of things is disconcerting. UMD's Australian office didn't pick up on it either which is also disconcerting. Does that make the shortcomings of other Australian organizations any better?

Post #19 the AMHRC explained their situation but you continue the attack

[Phoenix]

My apologies for not posting sooner to avoid this whole mess,

I was not having a go at anyone or any organization.

As Prolet had mentioned I am curious as to how these matters come to the attention of the Australian organizations, I asked a genuine question and yet all people here can come up with is "UMD UMD UMD..."

I used AMHRC as an example since people here seem to feel that they are the authority on these sorts of issues, and I am glad they have initiated legal action and I am proud of their initiative. The fact that everyone here jumped at me the second I questioned why AMHRC, or any other Australian organization for that matter, had no clue as to the very public statements Rann was making shows me a bit of hypocrisy here. It is beneficial and necessary to criticize UMD but say one word about AMHRC and I am automatically an anti-Macedonian jealous shit stirrer...

My intention was to point out the deficiencies in the vigilance of Macedonian organizations, when a public figure such as a premiere makes statements such as the ones Rann made at the Greek rally, those statements are usually public and they are usually documented by video or by reporters who attend the events, had it not been pointed out to AMHRC by people like MP the incident would have passed into obscurity. What does that say about the effectiveness of the so called "watch dog's" of the community?

I thought constructive criticism was necessary guys? I guess it's a one way street for some...


As for the questions about UMD, don't bother asking me hypothetical questions, I am not the UMD, if you want to know what they would have done ask them yourself. I have not once said that UMD should not have picked up on this, and when I say Australian Organizations, I include UMD in this.

Now can we get back onto the topic?

The AMHRC explained their position very clearly at post #19...and yet you're still banging on about it at post #66...

[sf.]

Hands up if at any stage any of you supported or support:

a) Macedonian admisssion to the EU;
b) Ljubco Georgievski;
c) 'brat' Ljube;
d) Nikola Gruevski.

You're all very definite and infallible in your views. Reflect a bit on your personal journeys, and perhaps have a look at the bigger picture.

[Phoenix]

Exhibit A - Phoenix with permanent PMS

Which snide comments would you be referring to?

#84 Buktop...

Well then I only have myself to blame, they were indeed sincere questions and now that I have the answers, you notice I am no longer asking questions. I did throw in a little sarcasm for effect, but my questions were sincere.

I'll be more careful in my wording next time.

[Bill77]

Hands up if at any stage any of you supported or support:

a) Macedonian admisssion to the EU;
b) Ljubco Georgievski;
c) 'brat' Ljube;
d) Nikola Gruevski.

You're all very definite and infallible in your views. Reflect a bit on your personal journeys, and perhaps have a look at the bigger picture.

A) Yes still do but only if its under our terms

B) no

C) no

D) Yes, still do. I need more evidance than just assumption of what he is acused of.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hands up if at any stage any of you supported or support:

a) Macedonian admisssion to the EU;
b) Ljubco Georgievski;
c) 'brat' Ljube;
d) Nikola Gruevski.

You're all very definite and infallible in your views. Reflect a bit on your personal journeys, and perhaps have a look at the bigger picture.

No, we aren't. I supported Ljube Boskovski, I do not anymore. I can admit that it was an error of judgement on my part and I am all the more wiser because of it. Meto Koloski advocated for the 'democratic' prefix, but he doesn't consider it an error of judgement on his part. He continues to justify his position with statements like "Macedonia is a democratic republic".

There is no personal journey to be had here, the bigger picture is exactly what we are looking at, we cannot stand quietly while a group claiming to represent the Macedonian Diaspora has a leader that holds such convictions, which we consider detrimental to the Macedonian Cause.

[Bratot]

„Нема да се извинам и стојам на мислењето дека претседателот Иванов ја краде грчката историја“, изјавил за австралискиот весник „Аустралијан“, премиерот на Јужна Австралија, Мајкл Рен.

Во овој австралиски медиум се објавуваат коментари според кои не ни е потребен глас од непостоечка земја и постои само една Македонија и таа е во Грција, како и коментари за противкандидатот Луксембург - дека да се избере мала земја како Луксембург е исто како остров да решава за светската безбедност

http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=120178

[Stojacanec]

How dare Rann accuse us of stealing history for his own narrow minded political gain. Because that is all it is FOR POLITICAL GAIN !

I'll be there to watch him fall flat on his stupid face on March 20.

[Buktop]

The AMHRC explained their position very clearly at post #19...and yet you're still banging on about it at post #66...

Phoenix, I asked Why they weren't aware of it (when it happened), I explained why I asked that, and I feel it is a reasonable question, and I continued to ask the question until Risto gave me an actual answer. If you quote what AMHRC said, they said they only became aware of it through an e-mail, not why they weren't aware of it.

I have every right to ask questions, and if you think asking questions constitutes an attack then you need a reality check.

[Buktop]

I don't defend ethnic Albanian extremism against the Macedonians, but I understand how they came to that decision. Does that make sense to you? I hope not, because it doesn't make sense to me.

not a realistic comparison.

And you are WRONG. Why am I having to repeat myself again, and again, and again? Post #138 of this thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2759&page=14

Buktop, "we feel" and "our organisation believes" is not a personal opinion. Do you understand this or not?

Has this espousal of acceptance of the Democratic prefix shown up anywhere else besides Meto's ZMR interview? Has it shown up in UMD policy announcements?

No, not tochka, because in that same clip, he justifies his earlier assertion regarding the 'democratic' prefix, saying:

He justifies how he came to that assertion, and then states that he no longer supports it or any other name change.

Who the hell is he to speak on behalf of the Macedonian Diaspora like that? Even though now, he no longer supports a name change, the fact will always remain, that he did support a name change, and does not see anything wrong with his previous assertion.

And the fact remains that you did support Boskovski, but you have since stopped supporting him, just as Meto has stopped supporting a name change, and I would call that an admission of being wrong. I'd call this progress.

Do we close our eyes to the obvious, or question each time people like amitreski make the statement that UMD have never advocated a name other than the Republic of Macedonia? Buktop, is amitreski telling the truth when he makes such a statement, or is he lying?

See points 2 and 3

[Buktop]

A)You support UMD policies, that makes you less Macedonian. And don't give me this shit about Meto's own opinion. If he speaks against UMD's opinion, then he should have been removed instantly.

B)Making excuses for UMD's President, is Defending. And don't be so stupid to ask who or what you were defending.

C)I am a Makedonce that tries to seperates the wheat from the chaff who does not care less which part of the world he or she comes from.

Oh great adjudicator of Macedonian-ness, forgive me for my trespass'!

Get real, I have only stated my interpretation of the facts and I have never blindly advocated that UMD is the be all end all of Macedonian Org's. I support UMD because I see what they have accomplished and what they can possibly accomplish. I am not the one making outlandish accusations that UMD is an American/Bulgarian/Dushman anti-Macedonian organization.

If my support of UMD is cause enough to call my Macedonian-ness into question, then fuck it.

[Prolet]

Buktop, You cant deny that there have been some concerns about the UMD, im not into an all out attack against them but they do need to take responsibility for their actions. We cant afford to have blind trust in organizations anymore, if there are any doubts or suspicions they need to be cleared up right away otherwise it will spread like a wild fire and its going to take alot of effort in clearing it up. I was very impressed with Meto's speech here and thats all good, however its up to him to turn things into reality i dont believe he was talking unrealistically however we simply cant tolerate empty promises anymore.

[Soldier of Macedon]

not a realistic comparison.

Sure it is, but if you can't be realistic about it yourself how would one expect you to accept it as such?

Has this espousal of acceptance of the Democratic prefix shown up anywhere else besides Meto's ZMR interview? Has it shown up in UMD policy announcements?

Is that supposed to make it 'OK', or insignificant? The President of the UMD made the statement on behalf of his organisation. Your continual justification of this irresponsible act leads me to believe that you agree with him.

He justifies how he came to that assertion, and then states that he no longer supports it or any other name change.

Is that what you call 'justification'? How can the Macedonian Diaspora ever have confidence in the UMD to do the right thing, going forward, particularly given Meto's reluctance to accept it as a mistake?

And the fact remains that you did support Boskovski, but you have since stopped supporting him, just as Meto has stopped supporting a name change, and I would call that an admission of being wrong. I'd call this progress.

I am not justifying my previous decision. He is.

See points 2 and 3

See what? You've given nothing, and I have had it with your apologist stance on behalf of these people. No matter what evidence is presented to the contrary of your bizzare beliefs and explanations, the truth will not suffice. You are a blind UMD apologist, which makes you no better than they are. Continue supporting this organisation Buktop, you belong with them. Here, I will admit to another mistake of mine, actually believing that you were capable of understanding logic and the implications of what the UMD have said and done.

The fact that these people were for a name change to Macedonia does not bother you, well, it bothers me, let the Macedonians judge who is just in this matter, and tochka.