United Macedonia Diaspora

[Vangelovski]

Then email someone on this forum who everyone will accept as un-biased enough to confirm what you say? Would you agree with this? If so then let us know because I will nominate an admin on this forum who has not written one word on this topic or other topics concerning this issue who I know everyone will find un-biased. Then we can once and for all bury this issue.

TM,

I said I’m not in the business of divulging the contents of private conversations and correspondence.

[indigen]

Vangelovski,
I don't think it is as straight forward as you make it out to be, or as we'd like it to be. The Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia is severely flawed. You can spot flaws and envision scenario's that would highlight a flaw in almost every Article of the Constitution.

Just reading the Macedonian Constitution, you see things like: Article 2

Which is what you are saying. But then it goes on to elaborate that with: We also see things like:Article 8

Also, with the most recent posts here, the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia specifically gives the power of Constitutional Amendments to the Parliament. In Article 68 we have which is followed up with and that is again followed up with Article 131

On a separate note, I have a particular interest in Article 24. It reads:
I wonder if that gives me the Right, as a citizen, to demand an answer from the Government on whether, ultimately, they will change the name?

The 1991 Ustav was valid in 2001 and has the following articles:

Vii. ОДБРАНА НА РЕПУБЛИКАТА, ВОЕНА И ВОНРЕДНА СОСТОЈБА

Член 122
Вооружените сили на Република Македонија го штитат територијалниот интегритет и независноста на Републиката....

Член 123
Никој нема право да признае окупација на Република Македонија или на нејзин дел.

Were Article 122 and 123 of the Macedonian Constitution breached/broken in 2001? Considering the seriousness of the breach, which equates to HIGH TREASON, what consequences should face those guilty of the crime?


УСТАВ НА РЕПУБЛИКА МАКЕДОНИЈА [1991]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2166

[indigen]

I hope all you "constructive criticizers" will be attending. I would hate for your valuable input to be missed. If it is at all possible to record any of the meetings I would be very interested in viewing them.

Why would you expect any serious thinking Macedonian to waste their time on an ideologically confused individual - with an overinflated ego - seeking to drain Macedonian Community financial resources (which can be better utilized in many other areas) and politically misrepresent the position of the vast majority of Macedonians in Australia?

I would write a BIG FLOP for "UMD" reception in Australia and that would be ideologically the RIGHT RESULT!

[Buktop]

Charlatan,

I should have defined an "upstart" organisation - one that has just been founded. I don't think it is reasonable to call a 4 Year old organisation "upstart". Especially one that had fee paying members at the time.

UMD will hold its first elections in 2011 - 7 YEARS after it was originally founded.

I also never claimed that UMD had no "election" clause - I said the Board in all its 5-6 years, has never been elected by the members and therefore is NOT representative.

It might do you good to go back and read my posts and then yes, by all means, post them again.

As Rogi has already put it so elegantly, I will refer you back to his post

I don't think there's anything wrong with the By-Laws. Sure elections are needed, but UMD is young and you need to establish and strengthen an organisation first.

Otherwise, 200 Greeks could have taken out a UMD membership, nominated 5 of themselves and voted all 5 onto the Board, effectively hijacking the organisation. Or VMRO or SDSM could do the same, etc.

You need some time to establish and weed out these types of problems.

You also can't put a time limit on the term "upstart" as it takes varying lengths of time to reach the point where elections are feasible. Seeing that UMD started with a handful of dedicated individuals and has progressed so much since its founding and has declared that they can feasibly hold elections in 2011 shows me they are coming of age.

your quote

Buktop, you can and will defend UMD, but without regular elections where all members can stand for election and vote, UMD isn't fooling anyone except you.

insinuating that UMD won't hold elections.

[Buktop]

I'll repeat the important sentence:

Charlatan, what you are asking me and the readers of this thread is to accept your incoherrent ramblings over the well-reasoned and time-tested arguments (some of which I posted here for you) of the founding fathers, former Presidents and Congressmen, Supreme Court Judges, political philosophers and historians.

I am asking you to read the constitution for yourself, and take it up with the people who wrote it. I am not asking for your principles or theories.

[indigen]

TM,

I said I’m not in the business of divulging the contents of private conversations and correspondence.

That is the ethical thing to do and I applaud your principled stand on this and on matters relating to the Macedonian struggle.

[Vangelovski]

I am asking you to read the constitution for yourself, and take it up with the people who wrote it. I am not asking for your principles or theories.

They're not just necessarily my principles and theories - they are also the principles and theories of the Founding Fathers (the first to establish a republic), former US Presidents and Congressment, Supreme Court Judges, political philosophers and historians.

I've not only read the Macedonian Constitution, I've read it within its proper context, having first done some research so that I could understand the key theories surrounding constitutional republics.

[Buktop]

Why would you expect any serious thinking Macedonian to waste their time on an ideologically confused individual - with an overinflated ego - seeking to drain Macedonian Community financial resources (which can be better utilized in many other areas) and politically misrepresent the position of the vast majority of Macedonians in Australian?

I would write a BIG FLOP for "UMD" reception in Australia and that would be ideologically the RIGHT RESULT!

Well that just goes to show us that you don't have any real intention of helping your fellow Macedonians, and you are willing to undermine Macedonians without the intention of being constructive.

[Buktop]

That is the ethical thing to do and I applaud your principled stand on this and on matters relating to the Macedonian struggle.

No he is not in the business of divulging the letters but he is in the business of threatening to disclose them.

You want me to trawel through thousands of emails - many of which contain current UMD Board members arguing that a name change would be acceptable - to find the EXACT date I resigned. Isn't Jan/Feb 2008 good enough? What if I accidently post the wrong email on here?

Very principled indeed...

[Risto the Great]

So if you have no interest why do you even join the debate? Why even say anything at all. You obviously could care less about the actions of UMD. You have not even met or spoken with your Australian representatives, and you are making allegations that are founded on rumors and scaremongering.

Do you have any basis for your allegations that "what Meto wants Meto gets"? Other than the ravings of the likes of Paul and Vangelovski?

Because I have little interest in the UMD's By-Laws, the debate is off limits to me? When an organisation purports to represent me, (and you know you confused the hell out of that statement when you defended Meto last time ... refer below), then I am very interested in hearing of them meeting with politicians etc. and conveying my "apparent" opinion. As an example, I don't want the name changed, so when the current leader says otherwise, it interests me.

Here is what you said about him if you have forgotten:

Meto is an employee of UMD he is not the sole leader of it, he volunteered to be a full time employee, sacrificing all of his time and effort to serve the Macedonian diaspora.

It sounds very noble. I serve the Macedonian Diaspora in my own bizarre way for no money whatsoever. Others like the AMHRC do it for no money as well. I don't think I ever received financial statements from the UMD whilst I was a paying member. How much was that wage to Meto again?


You have skirted around the issue I raised at least 2 times. I will make it simpler for you with pictures;

Vangelovski ADD Rogi = aligned in interests pertaining to Macedonian matters.

UMD MINUS (Vangelovski + Rogi) = Balance has shifted in another direction. (Confirmed by Rogi)

You agree with Rogi = balance has now shifted in a way you do not agree with.

If you can't read between the lines with Rogi's comments, then perhaps you should pursue some lines of thought that are less abstract.

[Buktop]

They're not just necessarily my principles and theories - they are also the principles and theories of the Founding Fathers (the first to establish a republic), former US Presidents and Congressment, Supreme Court Judges, political philosophers and historians.

I've not only read the Macedonian Constitution, I've read it within its proper context, having first done some research so that I could understand the key theories surrounding constitutional republics.

Well then you have read through the parts Rogi posted where the CONSTITUTION ITSELF states in Article 8

Anything that is not prohibited by the Constitution or by law is permitted in the Republic of Macedonia.

I don't give a shit who's theories or principles they are, the Macedonian constitution is flawed and therefor allows for these actions. TAKE IT UP WITH THE WRITERS OF THE CONSTITUTION!

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

I said I’m not in the business of divulging the contents of private conversations and correspondence.

But you're in the business of just stating the fact that you have these emails with such damning evidence Please let me know when you decide to get off the moral high horse because then I will ask this admin to tell us if what you claim is the truth or not. Until then let's keep the word "charlatan" down from a 10 to 1 because it can now be reverted back to you.

[Vangelovski]

Charlatan,

Thats Rogi's view on the by-laws - mine is different.

In all the organisations I've help found and written constitutions for (mostly Canberra/Queanbyean based), they've all had temporary management committees until their constitutions were adopted and their organisation was registered. Once these two actions were undertaken they held elections. None of these have taken more than 6-12 months from the time the organisation's inception to the time of elections - registration and constitutional processes included. Now, I understand sometimes things take longer, but 7 YEARS for the FIRST election? And for an organisation that claims to have 4,000 fee paying members and claims to represent the ENTIRE diaspora? That does not sound reasonable to me.

[TrueMacedonian]

That is the ethical thing to do and I applaud your principled stand on this and on matters relating to the Macedonian struggle.

......

[TrueMacedonian]

Charlatan,

Thats Rogi's view on the by-laws - mine is different.

In all the organisations I've help found and written constitutions for (mostly Canberra/Queanbyean based), they've all had temporary management committees until their constitutions were adopted and their organisation was registered. Once these two actions were undertaken they held elections. None of these have taken more than 6-12 months from the time the organisation's inception to the time of elections - registration and constitutional processes included. Now, I understand sometimes things take longer, but 7 YEARS for the FIRST election? And for an organisation that claims to have 4,000 fee paying members and claims to represent the ENTIRE diaspora? That does not sound reasonable to me.

Really? Is that what they claim? - http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/31/67/

Mission and Officers
Friday, 29 April 2005

Mission

United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) is an international non-governmental organization addressing the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world.

Where do they state this fact? I don't see that they make a claim to represent ALL Macedonians. This is from 2005,,, weren't you on the board at this time?