Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Prolet]

Vangelovski, So you want to see one sided arguments and anything else is propaganda?? News is News its obvious that you are totally biased to anybody who doesnt share the same opinion as you and you've made it perfectly clear.

Unlike yourself i believe that our community doesnt rely on one person (Bishop Petar) who comes to Australia once or twice a year. You cant continue to bitterly divide our people just because they agree or disagree with the Bishop, i have friends from either side so im not about to pick sides here.

'' Најлоша особина на човекот е кога ги плука и критикува другите , а не тргнува од самиот себе ''

Aleksandrov, Mane Jakovleski has stuck with the VMRO-DPMNE political party since he helped form it in 1990. How many VMRO activists all over our diaspora have been fooled into believing people like Ljubco Georgievski and Ljube Boskoski, even Dragan Bogdanovski was once fooled by Ljubco so was Boris Zmejkovski. Besides Mane does not hold a senior role in the party, you know very well that he is close to Bishop Petar and he has been since he was the head of the Evropska Eparhija before and Mane spent a long time living in Germany.

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

Your claims to "contradictions" in the Bible are completely baseless. Taking sentences out of their textual context, not understanding the meaning of ORIGINAL Hebrew words and concepts and taking them out of cultural context and then claiming there is a "contradiction" where non exists is the most ridiculous attempt to disprove any literary piece, not just the Bible. For example, I could take Arian's work, who actually proves Alexander the Great is Macedonian, to show that Alexander the Great is Greek, simply by taking passages out of their textual context, not understanding the ORIGINAL Greek words and applying external cultural meaning to the original cultural context. But that is your problem, you have no understanding of what exegesis is! For information:

Exegesis includes a wide range of critical disciplines: textual criticism is the investigation into the history and origins of the text, but exegesis may include the study of the historical and cultural backgrounds of the author, the text, and the original audience. Other analysis includes classification of the type of literary genres present in the text, and an analysis of grammatical and syntactical features in the text itself.

Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

Rather, you seem to be an expert in the opposite approach, which is eisegesis. This is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

I do want to make one point about objective moral values, which you attempt to use (in a perverted way) to argue the non-existance of God (which is in fact what you are doing). If God did not exist, then objective moral values would not exist. Any moral view would be subjective (such as veiws on the holocaust). Nothing would be either inherently good or evil, it would only be subjective personal opinion. In which case, all of your attempts to provide moral value (such as justice, loyalty to country etc) would be completely irrelevant as no such thing would exist. Loyalty to people and country, for example, would hold no value whatsoever and it would neither be bad to be a traitor nor good to be a patriot. The fact that we even have objective moral value is one proof of God's existence. Without God to tell us what is morally good and evil, there is no other foundation for objective moral value.

[Vangelovski]

Prolet,

As far as I understand it, the dispute is over AUSTRALIAN Trust Law. What jurisdiction or competence would a Macedonian court have in the matter? Posting such stories that Petar will use the Macedonian courts to get to the bottom of our Church finances is unsubstantiated rumour, which has no basis in reality! It is obvious that the "news" is nothing more than another malicious attempt by Petar to discredit the Macedonian communities in Australia. As such, it is nothing more than propaganda, bordering on defamation in my veiw.

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, Mane Jakovleski has stuck with the VMRO-DPMNE political party since he helped form it in 1990. How many VMRO activists all over our diaspora have been fooled into believing people like Ljubco Georgievski and Ljube Boskoski, even Dragan Bogdanovski was once fooled by Ljubco so was Boris Zmejkovski. Besides Mane does not hold a senior role in the party, you know very well that he is close to Bishop Petar and he has been since he was the head of the Evropska Eparhija before and Mane spent a long time living in Germany.

It seems you've missed the substance of Mane's interview and my response to it.

You've missed the basic point that from around 1995 until Ljubco Georgievski lost power in DPMNE, Mane opportunistically or blindly supported him, even though Georgievski's betrayal of the party's foundational objects was explicit by 1995 and was repeatedly demonstrated throughout his elimination of the "Zmejkovski wing" from the party and his term as Premier. Mane even supported him after the signing of the treacherous Ohrid Framework Agreement. You've missed the point that Mane sold out his alleged best friend and ideological founder of DPMNE, Dragan Bogdanovski, in an act of vacuous obedience to Georgievski, under the guise of loyalty to the party, yet today he disingenuously pretends to have been Bogdanovski's most loyal, life-long right hand man. You've missed the basic point that he is now engaging in a campaign to vilify Orthodox Communities that have been the pillars of the Macedonian community in Australia for over five decades, only because they oppose a bishop who continues to engage in attempts to put the Macedonian Orthodox Church under foreign jurisdiction and abolish its Macedonian identity. MANE IS DOING THIS NOW, WHEN HE HAS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF PETAR'S ANTI-MACEDONIAN COLLUSION SERVED ON A PLATTER FOR HIM.

It seems you have missed the point that Mane is promoting general and UNQUALIFIED subservience to the leadership of the party and to Petar, regardless of what their policies or deeds are. He is not even purporting to support them on the merit if their work and policies, so your comment about him allegedly having been fooled into thinking they are good is irrelevant.

You cannot forgive somebody for the sins of the past when they shamelessly CONTINUE to repeat such sins now, when they know fully well what they are doing.

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, You are talking about serious accusations here, its Klevetenje at its worst and i wont support it. Like i mentioned earlier, Mane Jakovleski is respected for his effort in helping register the political party of VMRO and nothing more. The Letters DPMNE mean nothing to me thats why i never use them, the whole ideology comes from the proper VMRO lead by our forefathers Goce Delcev,Dame Gruev,Nikola Karev,Jane Sandanski,Pitu Guli etc etc

The reason why you are having a go at Mane is because he refused to put up letters and other material against Bishop Petar on his Makedonska Nacija Website and we both know that was never going to happen. Mane and Bishop Petar go way back, Bishop Petar would even visit Mane's house in Zubovce for his kukjna slava PetkovDen.

Bishop Petar is in Australia now, is there any hope for some kind of a dialogue while he is here?

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, You are talking about serious accusations here, its Klevetenje at its worst and i wont support it. Like i mentioned earlier, Mane Jakovleski is respected for his effort in helping register the political party of VMRO and nothing more. The Letters DPMNE mean nothing to me thats why i never use them, the whole ideology comes from the proper VMRO lead by our forefathers Goce Delcev,Dame Gruev,Nikola Karev,Jane Sandanski,Pitu Guli etc etc

The reason why you are having a go at Mane is because he refused to put up letters and other material against Bishop Petar on his Makedonska Nacija Website and we both know that was never going to happen. Mane and Bishop Petar go way back, Bishop Petar would even visit Mane's house in Zubovce for his kukjna slava PetkovDen.

Bishop Petar is in Australia now, is there any hope for some kind of a dialogue while he is here?

Prolet,

Your baseless accusations that I have defamed Mane with "Klevetenje at its worst" and that the reason I am "having a go at Mane is because he refused to put up letters and other material against Bishop Petar on his Makedonska Nacija Website" are themselves defamatory, even if an intelligent reader wouldn't take them very seriously.

My reasons for what I have said about Mane are clearly stated in prior posts on this thread, and are consistent with what Mane says in the malicious and dishonest interview you posted previously.

For your information, I have never attempted to publish anything in Makedonska Nacija, except when I sought an opportunity to reply to a malicious, misleading and defamatory article that was published there against myself and the communities I represent, baselessly accusing us of being enemies of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and state and colluding with the Greek Council of NSW. All I sought was to refute those accusations by citing what the Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust Bill 2010 actually says, what the Hellenic Council's submission about it actually says, what our submission actually says, what the NSW Government's submission says, and how Petar's stance is consistent with the Hellenic Council's anti-Macedonian stance, as originally endorsed by the State Government, while ours is explicitly opposed to it. The fact that Mane refused to publish any reply to the defamatory lies he has been spreading about us in Makedonska Nacija in the service of Petar is another piece of evidence as to how honest he is, what his intentions are and who he serves.

The basis for your own blanket accusations cannot be seen anywhere on this thread. You behave like somebody who blindly takes instructions from the same political masters as Mane, without critically using his own own mind to understand or justify them.

What is it exactly that I've said that you claim is not true or is not a fair comment?

[makedonche]

Prolet
This is without doubt the most disappointing post I have ever read from you, but it does start to show your true colours! When are you going to realise that the Macedonian people in Australia will never go forward or be united or have their spiritual needs fulfilled while Petar is around? How many years have we been discussing this now? How much more evidence do you require to prove to you that Petar is neither capable nor interested in solving the issue? What has Petar - as the supposed voice of reason and advocate of God's word - done to heal the rift amongst our people? The very rift he caused! Prolet please take my questions seriously and answer them directly, they are asked in the spirit of good faith and in the best interests of the Macedonian people living in Australia. If you fail to answer my questions in the manner which they have been asked then i will consider you an enemy of the Macedonian people - and mark my words that the day of reckoning for Macedonia's enemies draws much closer and much faster than they realise!

[Prolet]

Не знам дали човеков заслужува да биде наречен УДБАш. Секој лукав манипулатор и измамник кој би узурпирал некоја незаслужена позиција во ДПМНЕ или во МПЦ може лесно да го експлоатира неговиот полтронски менталитет за неправедни дела. УДБАш сепак има одредена кадровска конотација.

Aleksandrov, Calling Mane Jakovleski an Udbash is not Klevetenje? I have yet to read an interview from him attacking you in anyway. If there is such an interview then feel free to share it here but i havnt seen it. You also label our court of law in Macedonia a Kangaroo Court, so do you approve of our Justice system in Macedonia or you dont?

What is it exactly that I've said that you claim is not true or is not a fair comment?

Its not fair to fire away at anybody who disagrees with you and always act like a victim every time they have a go at you. If you are prepared to criticize and call people names then at least have the nerve to accept criticism from the other side. It seems like everything is an insult to you, while you yourself has personally attacked me for being Bishop Petar's right hand man just because i dont agree with everything you say, keep in mind that i do agree with you in other areas.

Makedonche, You are disappointed in me because i dont hate Bishop Petar? I stated above that he is not the only one who makes up our community i think with him being in charge for the past 15 to 16 years is enough for one Bishop to serve our people here in Australia. I respect the hierarchy of MPC, i respect that fact that he is a Bishop thats it, i dont know what else you expect of me. There are many people in Melbourne who simply love Bishop Petar, infact last night they raised funds for a new Manastir. Our Community hasnt moved an inch in the past 15 years so nobody has done anything in my opinion, millions have been wasted on legal costs and thats very bad for all of us i think we agree on that.


There is one way out of this mess and thats a dialogue, thats the only thing that interests me. Im not going to take sides since thats only going to make matters worse. I want to see people give their opinions on how we all as a community get out of this mess, we have attacked and accused eachother in the past 15 years and where has that gotten us?? What did we get out of it? Nothing and thats what worries me.

[Mikail]

Prolet, Petar is not the head of our community, and what the heck are his flock raising funds for another Monastery for??

We have been in dire need of an aged care facility in Melbourne, if not two, and here we have this person you blindly admire, raising money from the blind and bewildered, to build him another Monastery.

I'm sorry but you people are fools!

[julie]

Prolet, he is putting MOC under the auspices of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
He is suing our people in Australia to put church titles in HIS name, and the documented evidence from the Land Titles Offices has been posted here.
He has caused divisiveness within our people in Australia
Shall I go on???

[osiris]

Petar is proof positive that humans should stop representing their god regardless of their position in any religious institution and that the people who treat them with respect are deluded

[Vangelovski]

Petar is proof positive that humans should stop representing their god regardless of their position in any religious institution and that the people who treat them with respect are deluded

Christians consider the Bible as the final authority of God's Word and not any human, so I'm not sure what relevance your comments have. For those who view a Bishop or Pope or whatever as authoritative, I agree, they are deluded.

Osiris, perhaps you would like to start a thread on atheism, or your Egyptian "god" and we can discuss that in greater detail?

[Vangelovski]

Aleksandrov, Calling Mane Jakovleski an Udbash is not Klevetenje? I have yet to read an interview from him attacking you in anyway. If there is such an interview then feel free to share it here but i havnt seen it. You also label our court of law in Macedonia a Kangaroo Court, so do you approve of our Justice system in Macedonia or you dont?

Its not fair to fire away at anybody who disagrees with you and always act like a victim every time they have a go at you. If you are prepared to criticize and call people names then at least have the nerve to accept criticism from the other side. It seems like everything is an insult to you, while you yourself has personally attacked me for being Bishop Petar's right hand man just because i dont agree with everything you say, keep in mind that i do agree with you in other areas.

Makedonche, You are disappointed in me because i dont hate Bishop Petar? I stated above that he is not the only one who makes up our community i think with him being in charge for the past 15 to 16 years is enough for one Bishop to serve our people here in Australia. I respect the hierarchy of MPC, i respect that fact that he is a Bishop thats it, i dont know what else you expect of me. There are many people in Melbourne who simply love Bishop Petar, infact last night they raised funds for a new Manastir. Our Community hasnt moved an inch in the past 15 years so nobody has done anything in my opinion, millions have been wasted on legal costs and thats very bad for all of us i think we agree on that.

There is one way out of this mess and thats a dialogue, thats the only thing that interests me. Im not going to take sides since thats only going to make matters worse. I want to see people give their opinions on how we all as a community get out of this mess, we have attacked and accused eachother in the past 15 years and where has that gotten us?? What did we get out of it? Nothing and thats what worries me.

Prolet,

I labelled an attempt by Petar to "find out what Australian Macedonian money is used for" would be nothing more than a Kangaroo Court fiasco. But I am willing to state that in a more general sense about the Macedonian judicial system - its a disgrace, riddled with corruption, nepotism, incompetence and inefficiency.

What is all this BS about "name calling". I've noticed as soon as the usual suspects are caught our lying, ignorant of the facts or just plain spreading propaganda, they start to complain about "name calling"! If you don't want to be known as an ignorant lier who spreads propaganda, then check your information for accuracy, make sure you only use accurate information and think critically about what it is you're saying/parroting.

[osiris]

I can't help it if you can't see the relevance in my post. Petar is a self proclaimed Christian as are you both of you think your version is the correct one. I don't know which one of you is closer to the TRUE christian message. In my opinion you are both wrong because the christian message is one of countless human created belief systems not the word of a diety

[Vangelovski]

I can't help it if you can't see the relevance in my post. Petar is a self proclaimed Christian as are you both of you think your version is the correct one. I don't know which one of you is closer to the TRUE christian message. In my opinion you are both wrong because the christian message is one of countless human created belief systems not the word of a diety

Besides the fact that you were unable to address the absurdities if objective moral values do not exist and the fact that you were unable to put up any evidence or argument to support your claims that theism is false, you are entitled to your illogical belief.

But why don't you open a thread on atheism? Seeing as you deny theism, why not argue the "reality" of atheism? Seeing as you are so confident in your atheism, it should be easy for you to provide a logical argument backed by evidence to support your worldview.