Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Prolet]

Julie, I've always respected your opinion and showed support. Surly the least you could do for me is respect mine, we dont have to agree on everything but we do have to support our cause. I agree that Bishop Petar plays a big part, but he is not the only one. There is no MPC without the believers we all know this.

[Vangelovski]

This Bill seems to be creating the foundations for a Petar takeover of all the Church properties in Australia.

Although it looks representative at first glance, from what I can see, every single member of the Trust is personally appointed by Petar himself.

(2) The Trust is to consist of the following members:

(a) the Metropolitan,
(b) the Deputy Bishop,
(c) a representative from the monasteries of the Church, who is
appointed by the Metropolitan,
(d) the Diocesan Secretary,
(e) 2 clerics of the Church, being current members of the Diocesan
Ruling Committee, who are appointed by the Metropolitan,
(f) the deputy president of the Diocesan Assembly,
(g) 3 lay persons, being current members of the Diocesan Ruling
Committee, who are appointed by the Metropolitan.

I cannot see a difference between the current situation where Petar (alongside two others) have Church property listed in their own names and the proposed Bill where the Trust will have complete control of Church properties and finances and Petar will have complete control of the Trust. Further, the Trusts actual by-laws by which it is governed are not included in this Bill and are therefore 'safe' from public scrutiny.

[aleksandrov]

...I cannot see a difference between the current situation where Petar (alongside two others) have Church property listed in their own names and the proposed Bill where the Trust will have complete control of Church properties and finances and Petar will have complete control of the Trust. Further, the Trusts actual by-laws by which it is governed are not included in this Bill and are therefore 'safe' from public scrutiny.

The difference will be that, while still having complete personal control over the properties in question, Petar will have the benefit of hiding from personal liability for matters relating to the trust under the 'corporate veil' (see http://www.gmlegal.com.au/pdf/corporateveil.pdf ).

[aleksandrov]

Can you please explain how he can do this to the registered Public Companies and Incorporated Associations not under the Canonical jurisdiction of MPC/MOC-Ohrid Archdiocese, e.g. MOCS?

He cannot do it by automatic legal effect, but he will try to do it politically. If this Bill is passed, he will start a vicious campaign to mislead the Macedonian public that any church which does not fall under the Act is not recognized as a Macedonia Orthodox in Australia. Judging by how many people have so far naively fallen for his shameless lie that a Bill of this type amounts to state recognition of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, it is not inconceivable that he will have success in coercing some future weak or unintelligent members of community committees into 'volunteering' to come under the trust.

In any case, it would be highly damaging for ANY Macedonian Orthodox church property to come under such legislation, regardless of whether or not it currently considers itself to be under 'canonical jurisdiction' of the MOC - Ohridska Arhiepiskopija.

Secondly, what are the relevant dates (so that we can asses the urgency) and to learn about processes involved in getting this legislation passed into Law?

There is no definite schedule. The Bill could come up for discussion and a vote at any time, depending on how things go with other Bills on the list. I suspect that it won't come up for at least a couple of weeks, but I would still react as if it could come up tomorrow.

Lastly, can you provide a sample/template letter to be used directly or as a reference point and an email address/web page for a contact to a campaign coordinator for obtaining future campaign action notices?

I will consider a standard letter, but standard letters are not as effective as people expressing opposition in their own words. In essence, all people need to do is cite the Bill and say that they are opposed to any legislation that puts Macedonian Orthodox church properties or any other properties established with community funds under total control of Bishop Petar.

[aleksandrov]

1. The parliamentary Bill that he is pushing through the Hon Reverend Fred Nile (who happens to be a Minister of the protestant Uniting Church of Australia) would give Petar's new corporation the right to do whatever he wishes with properties he purportedly holds for the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia

,
the "uniting Church", my dear fellow forum members disolved the Presbyterian church .
The uniting Church leader is allowing Petar to do the same, how very kind of them to shove their faces where they dont belong, of course, Petar has wonderful support from a leading disolver of religion,...

You should contact Fred Nile's office and other MPs to share this thought, Julie. You will find the contact details here:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/members.nsf/V3ListCurrentMembers

[Warrior]

http://www.informator.ws/avstralija/14862-2010-06-24-07-18-47.html

Interesting reading about some priest in Sydney....Bit of a casanova!!!

[indigen]

Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust Bill 2010

* Private Member's Bill
* In Legislative Council, 2R, Referred to Committee for inquiry and report, 24/06/2010.

Long Title

An Act to constitute as a corporation the Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust, to specify the Trust's functions, to provide for the vesting of certain property in the Trust; and for other purposes.
Explanatory Notes

Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust Bill 2010

Explanatory note

This explanatory note relates to this Bill as introduced into Parliament.

Overview of Bill

The objects of this Bill are as follows:

(a) to constitute a statutory corporation to hold property on behalf of the Macedonian Orthodox Church,

(b) to specify the functions of the statutory corporation,

(c) to provide for certain property held in trust for the Church to vest in the statutory corporation on the date it is established,

(d) to provide for the vesting in the statutory corporation of property given to, or receivable or recoverable by, the Church in the future,

(e) to provide for other property held in trust for the Church to be transferred and vest in the statutory corporation, if the current trustees and the Metropolitan consent or if the current trustees are deceased, absent or under a legal disability and the Metropolitan consents on their behalf.

Outline of provisions

Part 1 Preliminary

Clause 1 sets out the name (also called the short title) of the proposed Act.

Clause 2 provides for the commencement of the proposed Act on a day to be appointed by proclamation.

Clause 3 defines terms used in the proposed Act. Among the terms defined are Church, Trust and trust property. Church is defined as the Macedonian Orthodox Church, Diocese of Australia and New Zealand with its seat in Melbourne, being an integral part of the Macedonian Orthodox Church with its seat in Skopje, Macedonia, a hierarchical religious body whose leader, overseer and shepherd is the Archbishop of Ohrid and Macedonia.

Clause 4 makes it clear that it is the intention of the Parliament that the operation of the Act should, as far as possible, include operation in relation to property and things situated outside the territorial limits of the State.

Part 2 Constitution and functions of Trust

Clause 5 provides for the Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust (referred to in the proposed Act as the Trust) to be established as a corporation. The Trust is to consist of trustees comprising the Metropolitan (who presides over meetings of the Trust), the Deputy Bishop, a representative from the monasteries of the Church who is appointed by the Metropolitan, the Diocesan Secretary, the deputy president of the Diocesan Assembly and 3 lay persons and 2 clerics of the Church, each being current members of the Diocesan Ruling Committee, who are appointed by the Metropolitan.

Clause 6 specifies the procedure of the Trust.

Clause 7 specifies the functions of the Trust. These include:

(a) buying, holding and selling Church property, and

(b) acquiring property by gift or by devise or bequest, and

(c) borrowing money for Church purposes.

Clause 8 empowers the Trust to make by-laws.

Clause 9 enables the Trust to hold or acquire property alone or jointly.

Clause 10 provides for the investment of funds by the Trust.

Clause 11 enables the Trust to invest, as one fund, money held for different purposes.

Clause 12 empowers the Trust to make advances from its trust funds, and specifies how such advances may be made.

Clause 13 enables the Trust to make arrangements with a church of another denomination concerning the use of trust property.

Clause 14 enables the Trust to vary the terms of a trust if it has become impossible or inexpedient to carry out those terms.

Clause 15 enables the Trust to be the executor or administrator of an estate in which the Church has a beneficial interest. The clause will also enable the Trust to accept appointment as trustee of property held for the Church’s benefit.

Clause 16 authorises the Trust to act on behalf of the Church in settling the compensation payable in the event that any trust property is compulsorily acquired.

Part 3 Vesting of property in Trust

Division 1 Vesting of property in Trust

Clause 17 provides for the vesting in the Trust, on the date of commencement, of all property and rights held on trust for the Church by Bishop Petar Karevski, Father Jovica Simonovski and Father Tone Gulev, including the property listed in the clause.

Clause 18 provides for the vesting in the Trust of property acquired after the date of commencement.

Clause 19 provides for the later vesting of other property, if the current trustees and the Metropolitan consent.

Clause 20 provides for the later vesting of other property that is held on trust, if the Metropolitan is unable to obtain the consent of all current trustees and consents on their behalf.

Division 2 Provisions relating to vesting of property

Clause 21 requires registration authorities to record the transfer of interests in land that are necessary as a result of the operation of the proposed Part.

Clause 22 provides that the vesting of property in the Trust by the proposed Part does not affect any reservation, mortgage, charge, encumbrance, lien or lease that affected the property or any trust on which the property was held, immediately before the vesting of the property.

Clause 23 provides that, when property vests in the Trust in accordance with proposed section 17, 19 or 20 the rights, liabilities and obligations of the former trustees in relation to the property will become the rights, liabilities and obligations of the Trust.

Clause 24 provides that certain gifts, dispositions and trusts of property do not fail but take effect on or after the date of commencement, as gifts, dispositions and trusts in favour of the Trust.

Division 3 Payment of duty not required

Clause 25 provides that duty under the Duties Act 1997 is not chargeable in respect of, or in connection with, a conveyance to the Trust of property from a person or body that holds that property for or on behalf of any parish or community of the Church.

Part 4 Miscellaneous

Clause 26 provides for the custody and use of the seal of the Trust.

Clause 27 provides for the execution on behalf of the Trust of deeds and instruments required by law to be in writing and for the entering into of oral contracts on its behalf.

Clause 28 enables the Trust to appoint agents to execute documents on its behalf.

Clause 29 enables the Trust to certify that it holds property on trust for the Church.

Clause 30 provides that, if a person obtains a receipt for money paid to the Trust, the person will not be liable if the money is lost or misapplied or is not applied.

Clause 31 is intended to remove the need for a person involved in a property dealing with the Trust to inquire whether the Trust has power to deal with property and will protect the person even if the person had notice that the Trust had no such power.

Clause 32 entitles members of the Trust and others to be indemnified out of trust property against liability for certain things done by them in good faith concerning the property.

Clause 33 provides for the service of documents on the Trust.

Note: If this Bill is not modified, these Explanatory Notes would reflect the Bill as passed in the House. If the Bill has been amended by Committee, these Explanatory Notes may not necessarily reflect the Bill as passed.

----------------


Legislative Council 2R Speech
LC Mac Ortho Church.pdf

Text of Bill as First Print
b2009-044-d23-House.pdf

* Initially introduced in the Legislative Council

Legislative Council:

* Member with Carriage: Nile, Fred
* Notice of Motion: Tue 5 May 2009
* Introduced: Thu 10 Jun 2010
* First Reading: Thu 10 Jun 2010
* Ministers 2R Speech: Thu 10 Jun 2010

Link for source info.

Notice of Motion: Tue 5 May 2009

I think people/organisations concerned with this issue should have been monitoring for such moves by PK and raised the ALERT much earlier and should also have had a plan of ACTION in place for countering such a move. It all comes down to (or lack of) organisation in how effective opposition to the Bill will be, IMHO!

[indigen]

Interesting reading about some priest in Sydney....Bit of a casanova!!!

And?
Is what you posted off-topic or not?
Why not post this in a separate topic in "General Discussion"?
Is it the first time that you hear of such cases?
Has the court hearing finished and a verdict been passed?
Is this more serious than the various criminal affairs involving higher echelons of MPC-OA in RM?

Please do NOT (try to) SPAM this thread with off-topic nonsense, this especially applies to you, Prolet!

[Prolet]

How is it Spam Indigen? This is a priest in a Macedonian Church.

Its breaking news actually

We'll see what happens from here on.

Indigen, Why didnt Ico announce this news on his radio station yesterday?? He says every izjava that Bishop Petar gives out but he's kept quiet about this. Wheres the Pravdina?

Please do NOT (try to) SPAM this thread with off-topic nonsense, this especially applies to you, Prolet!

So its ok to mention Bishop Petar but its not OK to talk about the Popoj?

[Vangelovski]

Prolet,

This thread is about the Bill in the NSW Parliament, not your tabloid gossip.

[Warrior]

And?
Is what you posted off-topic or not?
Why not post this in a separate topic in "General Discussion"?
Is it the first time that you hear of such cases?
Has the court hearing finished and a verdict been passed?
Is this more serious than the various criminal affairs involving higher echelons of MPC-OA in RM?

Please do NOT (try to) SPAM this thread with off-topic nonsense, this especially applies to you, Prolet!

What is your problem??? Did you read the text? It seems that doesnt suit you what its written does it???? You are full of garbage with most of the posts anyway....

Amongst all the dribbel you send how about you post the titles of who owns the church that are not part of the MOC?? And that is only way to be fair and balanced when providing information so people can analyse.....

[Warrior]

Prolet,

This thread is about the Bill in the NSW Parliament, not your tabloid gossip.

Gossip....!!!!....A maco priest being in jail for number of days is a gossip!!!! Its a fact id say. Maybe one of the posters can confirm or deny that as it seems he was involved to some extend in this story.
You missing the point here, its not that he has been shagging some elses wife, (i dont believe that is agaisnt the law in Oz) id say good luck to him, its the fact as a so called priest he hasnt been able to resolve the problem, prior to him landing in jail....that is the true essence out of the text.....Luckly when i was getting married one of those biggots was telling how to be faithful....

[Prolet]

Prolet,

This thread is about the Bill in the NSW Parliament, not your tabloid gossip.

Vangelovski, No its not the thread is called "Macedonian Church dispute in Australia"

So this includes all parties involved including the popoj.

[Warrior]

How is it Spam Indigen? This is a priest in a Macedonian Church.

Its breaking news actually

We'll see what happens from here on.

Indigen, Why didnt Ico announce this news on his radio station yesterday?? He says every izjava that Bishop Petar gives out but he's kept quiet about this. Wheres the Pravdina?



So its ok to mention Bishop Petar but its not OK to talk about the Popoj?

If someone posts the titles of the other churches, you might find the answer as to why Ico didnt make that a news!!!

[Prolet]

If someone posts the titles of the other churches, you might find the answer as to why Ico didnt make that a news!!!

I remember a few years back maybe 3-4 Ico gave out this ridiculous statement how some old ladies told him that they saw Bishop Petar in a Commonwealth Bank with garbage bags full of money and he went on and on, a 5 year old kid would laugh at hearing that.

I can understand if Ico doesnt agree with the Vladika he has the right to his opinion but to say something like that its equivalent of how an ex committee member "accidentally" flushed $2000 down the toilet when the committee members asked him where the money was.