Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Vangelovski]

Prolet,

Until we get confirmation from Aleksandrov, I wouldn't believe what is written in Macedonian newspapers about the intentions of the anti-Petar Churches.

[aleksandrov]

Another baseless, sensationalist story, published in a newspaper that never publishes our replies to the falsehoods that are constantly generated about us in Macedonia. The Macedonian Orthodox Church of Australia (being a completely self-governing affiliation of ten Macedonian Orthodox churches in Australia that do not accept Bishop Petar's despotic jurisdiction) has a mutually respectful relationship with some officials of the Russian Orthodox Diocese of Australia. Last weekend, a Russian Archimandrite joined in the marriage ceremony for the son of the Macedonian priest who serves at our church in Cabramatta (Sydney), that priest being Very Reverend Ljupco Dvojakovski. The ceremony was performed at our Macedonian church in Rosebery (Sydney), and led by our own Macedonian priest, Very Reverend Zoran Aleksovski. A Russian Archimandrite, father John, joined in the ceremony as a special guest of the father of the groom (Very Reverend Dvojakovski).

We have not participated in any talks to go under Russian jurisdiction. What is interesting, however, is that while bishop Petar maliciously declares our churches as desecrated and our priests as defrocked (from the Orthodox Church in general), because we won't hand over all of our community-owned properties to him, our priests and churches are respected as Orthodox by the Russian Orthodox Church. Yet the Russian Orthodox Church is fully aware that the ethnic identity of our churches is Macedonian and that we won't even discuss the possibility of any jurisdiction over us by the Serbian Patriarchy, unlike Bishop Petar, who negotiated and signed an agreement for the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia to fall under Serbian jurisdiction and give up its Macedonian national/ethnic identity.

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, If you recall Bishop Kiril's interview he said going back under SPC control is like being on a bel konj and going to a shugavo magare, its more then clear that nobody wants to be under SPC juristiction.

It looks like Bishop Petar is running out of patience, i just hope it doesnt all blow out.

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, If you recall Bishop Kiril's interview he said going back under SPC control is like being on a bel konj and going to a shugavo magare, its more then clear that nobody wants to be under SPC juristiction....

Who are you including in "nobody"? Kiril and Agatangel were the only bishops in the MOC who actively opposed the Nish Agreement that Petar negotiated and co-signed with the Serbian Orthodox Church (which actually took a form more akin to a decree by the Serbian Orthodox Church than an agreement between two churches). The other bishops then backed off from codifying the agreement they delegated Petar to negotiate not because they didn't WANT to honor it, but because they were scared away by the unexpectedly vehement backlash from the Macedonian public when the Agreement became public prior to the scheduled ratification by the Synod. Indigen has posted a fair dose of historical evidence of that elsewhere on this forum. I suggest you search for it and give it some serious consideration.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonian Church dispute in Australia

Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust Bill 2010

http://amca2010.wordpress.com/

Dear readers,
the Macedonian church dispute in Australia is an absolute tragedy. It has been divisive and a ridiculous drain on Macedonian resources. This thread will be dedicated to developing an understanding of the issues that have led to our current state of affairs. If I take religion out of the equation, I see nothing more than wanton land grabs. Personally, I found no justification in Adelaide where Bishop Petar wanted to take our community centre as well as the church. Taking the church on its own presented other questions in my mind but the demand for the community centre tainted all of his intentions in my mind.

Following are land titles to churches affiliated with Bishop Petar:

Sydenham Victoria




Donnybrook Victoria




Woodville South Australia




Frederick Street, Rockdale NSW




Liverpool NSW

[julie]

Jovica simonovski and Tone Gulev, and what is their relationship to Petar Bishop Karevski,

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/bill/mocptb2009573/

interesting

[Prolet]

Julie, You dont know Jovica Simonovski and Tone Gulev? Both are senior popoj in the MPC ranks.

[Risto the Great]

It is a shame that land titles do not have consistency throughout Australia. As an example, the South Australian title contains a term "with no survivorship". This typically indicates the land is held in trust and that the names mentioned on the title are trustees of that trust. In the interest of transparency, I would like to see that trust deed.

[julie]

So where are their cheersquad to say this is incorrect, that its all a conspiracy and we wont go to heaven for doubting the Bishop, who only walks around with the clothes on his back
What an absolute joke, personally accumulating wealth from the people in the diaspora who built some of these churches with their own funds, without any assistance from the said accumulater of wealth

I guess the conspiracy is that RoM sanctions it to create divisions amongst the too patriotic diaspora here, this is something that I have heard in conversation a few years ago

Even sadder is having such a lovely priest who christened my boys and his beautiful wife and family who I adored and still do, caught up in this

[Prolet]

Risto, This is an extremely important topic and thanks for raising awareness on this issue. The church dispute has been a killer of our community for over a decade now, its very important that a dialogue can be reached.

[Prolet]

Interview with VMRO Veteran Jane Mavchev

From the 41st minute there is an interview with Jane Mavchev, he fully praised Nikola Gruevski and labeled him as the strongest ever leader we've had, he also says that Gruevski will never change our "Vekovno Ime"

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/macedonian/player/page/day/thursday/time/16/channel/1

[aleksandrov]

"VMRO veteran"? Are you kidding? What has this guy done for the cause?

Mavchev's word means nothing. As late as last year he was glorifying Ljubco Georgievski and insisting that the things they say about him being a sellout have not been proven. The first time I heard of Jane Mavchev was when he rang me last year with juvenile threats because I issued a public statement saying that going under 'bishop' Jovan (Zoran) Vraniskovski's wing would be as bad as going under 'bishop' Petar (Jovan) Karevski's wing (the latter being a co-author and signatory of the agreement to rename the Macedonian Orthodox Church and put it under Serbian jurisdiction, and leader of the delegation that negotiated it). You expect people to take Mavchev seriously? Our people at SBS have devalued the program by broadcasting an interview with this self-inflating airhead, who abuses the 'VMRO' name to make himself seem significant.

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, Jane Mavchev is the head of the VMRO veterani who are under the branch of the VMRO-DPMNE Party in Melbourne.

He has been involved with the VMRO party for a long time now, im not sure about his alliance with Ljubco alot of people were fooled into his fake patriotic talks thats for sure.

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, Jane Mavchev is the head of the VMRO veterani who are under the branch of the VMRO-DPMNE Party in Melbourne.

He has been involved with the VMRO party for a long time now, im not sure about his alliance with Ljubco alot of people were fooled into his fake patriotic talks thats for sure.

Prolet,

I was heavily involved in the VMRO-DPMNE committees in Australia (as Assistant Secretary and then Secretary of the Sydney committee) from 1992 to 1996. I had very close contacts with the Melbourne committee and if the name Jane Mavchev was of any significance in that period, I would have heard of it. It's one thing to declare yourself a veteran and another to be one. When VMRO-DPMNE started looking like it was going to win government power, around 1997, lots of spineless nobodies who sat on the fence or supported Gligorov when it was considered inopportune to attack his treacherous vassal regime suddenly came out pretending to have been part of the VMRO-DPMNE avant garde. It was those types of cheap opportunists that helped Georgievski pervert the party.

Rogi's father was President of the VMRO-DPMNE committee in Melbourne for much of the early period. Perhaps he can give us some alternative insight into Machev's significance, if any, in the party's struggling, formative years.

[makedonche]

Risto, This is an extremely important topic and thanks for raising awareness on this issue. The church dispute has been a killer of our community for over a decade now, its very important that a dialogue can be reached.

Proletche
It is an extremely important issue and has divided our communities at a time they need to be united. So this raises a few questions:
1/. Why divide the communities (because it's easier to manipulate them)
2/. Who divided the communities ( the Bishop by creating the problems)
3/. Who would benefit from the divided communities(the bishop, the greeks, the serbians and the bulgarians)
4/. What would they benefit( the bishop would be able to pick off each of the churches by lawsuits one at a time - harder to do it if they are all united)(the greeks bulgarians and serbs would keep us weaker and unable to claim our identity,history,culture and lands they have stolen).
Something for you to contemplate!
What's your opinion on my comments Prolet?