Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[johnMKD]

Solution is simple but achieving it would be very hard as it requires either a political revolution or a military takeover in Macedonia by a NATIONALIST (PATRIOTIC) MOVEMENT and declaring ALL prior acts of CAPITULATION AND TREASON AS NULL AND VOID.

Everything you say seem to be OK, but a military takeover imho would hurt the country inside and outside. Inside: Could create issues with Albanians within and outside Macedonia. Outside: Firstly at a diplomatic level and seconldy of course it will "feed" Greece and EU to provoke more about Macedonia's instability.

[Rogi]

Because they are afraid to, not that they don't want to.

They're so afraid that they wont even commission any sort of internal evaluation or decision tree to calculate the so-called risks and consequences of withdrawing from the Interim Accord - because there might be a leak to the media, or worse, to the foreign diplomats that that Macedonian Government is afraid of, and who pull the real strings in Macedonia.

[indigen]

Absolutely, I agree wholeheartedly, why does RoM do nothing?

Julie, you really should STOP AGREEING with everything that on a superficial analysis looks reasonable and take a considered IDEOLOGICAL position. ALL these capitulations - "TEMPORARY REFERENCE" "INTERIM ACCORD" AND "FRAMEWORK AGREEMENT" (aka RAMKOVEN DOGOVOR) should simply be declared as null and void and never legitimised! If you do that, you would not repeatedly have conflicting positions.

As it is, the VASSAL politicians in Mk will do what their masters want and the least we can do is NOT GIVE THEM OUR SUPPORT!

[indigen]

Indigen so what you are telling me is that Macedonia is not address in the constitution as the Republic of Macedonia but only as Macedonia? Or non of the above?

Here is the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.
http://www.sobranie.mk/en/default.as...B897C1858B71FF

Daskale, we have been over this topic for a long while now and even Prolet (after SOM set him straight here, as he would not listen to me) is PC about it. Macedonia has a state name only - MACEDONIA!

Please check the following specific thread out:
A Google search for terms "Constitutional name" only relates to Macedonia?

If you feel we need to discuss it further, perhaps you can reactivate the specific thread above?

So pochit,
I.

[julie]

John, I hardly think Greece is in any position to "feed" off Macedonia if it were to stand up for once with balls

[johnMKD]

John, I hardly think Greece is in any position to "feed" off Macedonia if it were to stand up for once with balls

Of course, julie! The problem is a) EU is backing up Greece and b) that Macedonia doesn't seem willing to stand up with balls.

[johnMKD]

... and the English should tell FOPOG to change its flag, rather than using symbols from England. They clearly have territorial aspirations.

This is the flag of the East India Trading Company, which was in use well before FOPOG was granted independence by Western Europe.

I had no idea about this East India Trading Company flag existed!! LOL

[Bratot]

It's not in the balls only what counts

If some is alleging he know better only by vigorous opponing and simplifying the things as enough just to think of it and will be done I am expecting to see solid background for such reasoning and of course a plan of the measures needed to be undertook in order to neutralise the concequences.

It's very easy to be loud and brave but it's very hard to use properly your brain when dealing such problem, it's a lot to expect from us to react calm and to feel comfortable with this situation but first of all we should ensure the basic elements not to worse our current situation.

[Daskalot]

Then you should stick to that and nothing else as you would also be inline with what Macedonian communities worldwide, and specifically in Australia, voted for in 1993/1995 and 2001!


Solution is simple but achieving it would be very hard as it requires either a political revolution or a military takeover in Macedonia by a NATIONALIST (PATRIOTIC) MOVEMENT and declaring ALL prior acts of CAPITULATION AND TREASON AS NULL AND VOID.

Thus we need to start with an ideology and to gather together adherents of that ideology into a national movement that will achieve the set aims and objectives - SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN STATE for MACEDONIAN NATION! If one does not adhere to our ideology, then they are either political opponents or uninformed/misinformed part of the masses. The former should be neutralised or fought against whilst the latter should be educated/enlightened and won over in as greater number as possible. The quicker one can do this, the stronger the fight for the final aims will be.

Well said Indigen, but this movement must come from within Macedonia itself. Most youth in Macedonia are not aware of the situation and they are the ones we need to reach for this movement to get momentum.

[Silver]

Since my post has all but been ignored let me repost it here...

OM & Bratot, some comments and questions:

What benefits if any, do see which Macedonia would become endowed with if it ever does join the EU and what foreign investment would you be alluding to and from where? Spain? France? Italy? Indeed, let’s not forget how significant an investor 'Greece' is for Macedonia. We wouldn’t want to do anything to lose that valuable commodity for god sakes, right? What benefits have other countries like Croatia and Slovenia experienced since joining the EU? Have their problems disappeared and has their quality of life improved or will it ever? If so how?

Trade is very important of course but it's time for all of us to realize that Macedonia is very capable and it is solely responsible for creating its own wealth and we should stop waiting for the Germans or somebody else to come and give us a life. Through agriculture and resources alone Macedonia has the ability to market and sell what it wants to any offer. That in its self can create sufficient wealth needed to spur on both business and education that will eventually bring vibrancy and a standard of living we seem to be longing for and nothing else will. Foreign investment should be welcomed, but again, nothing will keep the prosperity in Macedonia except for Macedonian owned business and Macedonian interests. History shows us that foreign interests have only enslaved Macedonians for centuries. For example, the interest paid out from Turkish bonds. But add to the equation an illustrious past and some of the most beautiful scenery and nature anywhere on earth then what else can foreign aid do for Macedonia except create some jobs for a certain sector? There is no guarantee that these jobs will stay forever and if they don't what then? How does Macedonia diversify? If Macedonia is not in the EU will it be banned from trading with the EU or any of its member states? If so, then not only will we be in UN court fighting ‘Greece’ for our human rights we will also be in World Trade court fighting the EU. If we have to, then in good time all this will happen.

Now, when people who granted are frustrated, say that the best option for Macedonia is to tear up the agreement and walk away from talks with artificial 'Greece' we get the 'you're guilty of bravado' comebacks as to sort of bring us back to reality. Well then, tell me this: what exactly do you anticipate would happen if we did just that, walk away by ending the accord tomorrow? Would nobody want to associate with us? Would we be shunned and ignored? How ethical is that?

And let me ask you another question, what exactly do you anticipate artificial 'Greece' would do if Macedonia walks away from negotiating its name? Would they and perhaps their new friends 'Bulgaria' attack Macedonia and begin to exterminate our people? And who would let them? Would Europe stand by as it has in the past and simply watch it happen? Would they ignore it? Would even the whole world ignore something simply over a name? Should we go on as we are trying to join up with these clubs when they don't respect our human rights by not punishing ‘Greece’ and suspending its rights? Why are they incapable of doing anything about ‘Greece’s’ behavior and/or why do they tolerate it? Are the signs of a dysfunctional EU going to elude us forever?

Finally, are you of the opinion that it is 'Greece' and only 'Greece' who is responsible for all the problems Macedonia ever had or did the European Powers have something to do with it as well? Do you really expect any of us to believe that we'll be able to over- turn precedents or is it not true that we will have to submit to more ethnic cleansing in the future? If so, then you are advocating Macedonia to submit to it's murderers and to forget the past. Do not expect many Macedonians willing to join you. You can chalk it up to bravado but I can assure you friends it's a lot more than that.

Bratot, you continue to argue in line with the EU, UMD, Mr Buktop et al and at times really not making much sense. The fear mongering, end of the line, guaranteed disaster etc. which will surely befall us for our bravado that I see in your preaching is obvious but I ask you again to go all the way on it and finally explain exactly what do we have to fear?

Are trade embargo's legal and/or ethical? Under what grounds? Is war justified? Why exactly would we have to go to war? Because of who we are and our name? If I'm born with Macedonia in my blood and want to be identified and recognized as a Macedonian is someone right to think I deserve to die? Can anyone still actually get away with that in 2010? Does Europe think it can? 100% their baby 'Greece' still thinks it can that's for sure (if you do not yet understand what degree of evil Greece is capable of then you shouldn't even bother to discuss this anymore).

Are we not being blackmailed here? 'Go along with what we say or else' What else? Are we not being strung along a path to our own destruction simply because it's easier for them this way rather than to have to revert back to murdering Macedonians? If the threats of our economic demise are what we're worried about than surely we have absolutely nothing to worry about. Macedonia has seen it all. A little more stagnation and rationing is nothing compared to even a hundred years ago. Meanwhile, France is an economic basket case, so is Italy, so is Spain, so is 3/4 of the entire EU an economic basket case. So that argument doesn't fly anymore. Macedonia has all it needs to thrive and survive. It's simply up to Macedonians and our level of determination.

Now back to the 'what else?'. If it's war, the threat of war and that nobody would say boo to 'Greece' for annexing the rest of Macedonia than why are we willing to trust anyone who accepts this as a fate we deserve? Why do they accept it? And why do we want to have their approvals and be willing to follow along with whatever they say hoping that things will just work out for us in the end. It's obvious what 'Greece' wants and what their supporters in the EU want. The death and extinction of the Macedonian Ethnic Nation. That has been part of the European ideology for centuries. Do you care to deny it? How do we fit into the EU under those circumstances? And how in the world will we be able to over-turn what's already been done to deny us our name and our identity?

In my opinion it is absolutely clear and without a doubt that nobody even countries who have already recognized our name and identity will help us until we stop being naive and stand up for ourselves already. Otherwise we will soon be staring into the abyss.

[Rogi]

I am yet to see any real argument from those suggesting a meek approach in order to bide our time, about the actual consequences of ending the negotiations immediately.

I mean, there have been posts here mentioning embargoes and so on, but there has been no analysis at all as to whether Greece really is in the position to unilateraly declare an economic embargo against Macedonia.

If anyone wanted to take this discussion seriously, which has never been done before on any forum, then it would be about evaluating those assumed consequences.

Otherwise, all I am seeing is a pointless heated argument over absolutely nothing but assumptions and opinions.

This is precisely the reason why we never actually get into a serious and analytical discussion, nor has it ever been possible on any forum, where we can really stay on track and moderate the thread to stay the course and purpose, and put a final end to the arguments of the fear-mongerers who assume the end of the Republic of Macedonia, if it withdraws from one agreement, signed 15 years ago, that impacts on nobody in the world, and has no relevance to anyone in the world, other than to the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonians.

We have gone into a discussion that borders on arguing over who is a bigger and better patriot, when everyone in the forum is against a name change and against the interim accord, and instead everyone wants to work out the best possible way for Macedonia to fix this situation it is currently in.

Some of us, myself included, argue for an immediate end to the Interim Accord, on the basis of principles and sovereignty.

However, it seems for many other Macedonians, and perhaps even more importantly for the Macedonian Government, that argument is not enough; there is a fear of the assumed 'consequences' of that action, which has mostly been manufactured by propaganda.

So we need to move beyond that argument alone, not because it is not the correct one, but because that argument is too correct, too real, too fast.
Yes we need a mental shift in Macedonia, we need the Macedonian people and Government to shake this submissive slave-mentality, but we also need, I think perhaps more pressingly (though I recognise how inter-related they are), an immediate end to the negotiations over the Macedonian name.

It seems what is required is that we prove the feared assumed consequences are not nearly as dire as people seem to believe and we need to show that the existing situation, is causing more harm than good both in the economic sense and in terms of the harm being caused to the Macedonian national identity.

Then, moving forward we can more easily bring everyone around into accepting the most correct argument, that they should assert the Sovereignty of the Macedonian nation and the Will and Freedom of the Macedonian people, and through that, provoke or ignite the process for the required mental shift.

[Bratot]

Silver,
I'm one person and I don't intend in having separate replays to few persons at once, sorry for the one day you lost waiting for my replay even though you should respect the primary discussion me and Vangelovski have.

@ Rogi

I'm still waiting the answer from Vangelovski about the status of Macedonia in UN if we withdraw from the IA.

Maybe you could answer instead of him or to give your opinion what will follow after such act(unilateral withdrawing) since we are accepted as member in the UN on the basis of the IA?

That is the first trap on our sovereignty and making it more vulnerable will come after we lose the membership in UN and we will have to prepare new application for re-admission to the United Nations under the Constitutional name.

Do you know what that means?

Letting us out of UN and gambling to see if the new resolution will be accepted by the Security Council P-5 members with right to veto our application.

USA, China and Russia have recognized us under our name for all purposes, UK only billateraly but we always have FRANCE as permament obstacle and traditional ally of Greece.

It will be another situation like when China vetoed the draft resolutions to renew the UN peacekeeper mission in Macedonia which later led to the Kosovo crisis and 350.000 refugees from which huge number stayed in Macedonia and later got recruitet in the 2001 for UCK.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/190/33325.html

Keeping us out of UN is something Greece have a wet dream about and it will provide excelent ground to the Albanian extremists and we gonna find in position of becoming another Protectorate in the rang of Kosovo or Bosnia with posibile ferederalization and in such circumstances obvious change of the name put in front of another Ramkoven experience.

That's why if we already decide to go this path we should prepare for it, but except for attaching the etiquette of "being traitor" the persons like Indigen which presents themselfs as genuine hardcore patriots have NOTHING to offer.

No army, no strategy, no climate for mobilization of the people, many political profeteurs, no reserve coridors, no sea ports, all main resources in foreign hands, poor economy and weak diplomatic power.

Further worsening of our position by giving up the UN seat will put us in serious problems first of all it will give another opportunity to Greece's friends to force us to change our name in order to enter the UN, than we have to cross the same path to NATO, EU etc.

I don't know what else could add, for me is simple, we go the harder way but resistant or putting ourself in front of formal execution.

[Daskalot]

I mean, there have been posts here mentioning embargoes and so on, but there has been no analysis at all as to whether Greece really is in the position to unilateraly declare an economic embargo against Macedonia.

If anyone wanted to take this discussion seriously, which has never been done before on any forum, then it would be about evaluating those assumed consequences.

Rogi we should make a fault tree analysis of the possible outcomes of a withdrawal from the accord.

[Risto the Great]

I'm still waiting the answer from Vangelovski about the status of Macedonia in UN if we withdraw from the IA.

http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml#m

I looked in the "M" section and could not find Macedonia.
We are not there. So there is nothing to worry about.

I suppose if I look at the "T" section I might see something .... but I don't want to look there. It goes against UN charters. But if I take a peek at the "T" section it says admitted 1993. Which precedes the interim agreement anyway. Therefore I will say nothing will happen whatsoever. It will be the same shit with the UN as has been the case for 17 years. Are you tired of the "provisional" name yet?

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

I've been patient with you, but you are insisting on spreading Gligorovist propaganda which only Buktop and UMD subscribe to these days.

How would declaring the Interim Accord 'null and void' affect our UN membership? How on earth did you come to that assumption? RtG pointed this out so it should give you a clue - do you know when and under what circumstances Macedonia was admitted to the UN? Or are you just spreading more uninformed BS to scare other Macedonians into believing your idiotic scenarios? You're making uninformed assumptions based on inaccurate information and then concluding pre-conceived apocalyptic scenarios accordingly.

Here is a copy of the UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY resolution admitting Macedonia in 1993:

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N93/240/37/IMG/N9324037.pdf?OpenElement

The Interim Accord was signed in 1995.

How does an Accord, signed two years later, have any effect on Macedonian UN membership?

Do you know the difference between the General Assembly and the Security Council? Do you know which of the two has the power to admit new members? Do you know how existing members can be expelled or have their membership rights and privileges suspended? Have you ever read (and UNDERSTOOD) the UN Charter? Or are you just making things up as you go along?

Have you REALLY put any thought and research into the apocalyptic scenarios you predict for Macedonia if it declared the Interim Accord 'null and void' or are you just rehashing 15 year old Gligorovist arguements? Do you know what 'null and void' means? Besides the treasonous name negotiations, do you know what else constitutes the Interim Accord? Can you substantiate any of your claims with evidence-based reasoning?