Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

Serbian Interior Minister Ivica Dacic said that "if the price is Serbia give up Kosovo to gain membership the Union, then it should never be accepted because there are national and state interests, and Serbia can survive without the EU.

The price of Macedonia gaining favour and entering into the EU is to give the ethnic Albanians of Macedonia a higher status in Macedonia than Macedonians have for themselves. National and State interests have already been sacrificed. Macedonia is clearly worse off than Serbia.

[makedonche]

The price of Macedonia gaining favour and entering into the EU is to give the ethnic Albanians of Macedonia a higher status in Macedonia than Macedonians have for themselves. National and State interests have already been sacrificed. Macedonia is clearly worse off than Serbia.

.............and dare I say a lot dumber?

[Onur]

Here is why poor Serbia and it`s puppet rulers thriving for EU membership in recent years;
According to a MEP in EU parliament here, Serbia received 3,3 billion euros from EU commission only in the last 5 years. Watch this;

The cost of Kosovo - YouTube

Gotta remind you that Serbia is not even a candidate country. In the video, MEP says that EU commissioners wants visa liberation with Kosovo too, which is an another non-candidate country.

I can assure you that Turkey, a member of EU institutions since 1950s and a candidate country since 2004, didn't get 3,3 billion euros from EU even in the last ~50 years of time and our demand for visa liberation only for the businessmen and students are constantly being denied (!!!)

[George S.]

How will macedonia be better off if it changes their name in order to join the eu??

There are people that think that Macedonia will be better off if it changes it's name in order to join the eu.I say a no change of name & i say no we don't need to join the eu to become prosperous.Macedonia can make it's own way through the world.This thread is to see how many people favour a name change??

[Sekirani]

No for a namechange, ever !

[George S.]

good on you sekirani for replying.Some otherpeople are a bit apprehensive about being .
asked well done for replying.

[makedonche]

Not me George - I can't be anything other than Macedonian!

[George S.]

thanks for replying there makedonche.


So where do the others fall Are you with us or against us??

[Beauregard]

I don't think Macedonia would be better off sacrificing it's name to join the EU or NATO.

Setting aside the obvious reason, being that it's OUR name and no one has any right to tell us otherwise, the reasons it shouldn't be done are:

1. It sets a bad global precedent. This whole notion that things need to be decided in a Unanimous manner is mind boggling. Imagine if political elections operated this way? Would anyone ever get elected? Of course not. It is simply impossible for every one in the world to form a unanimous opinion. A global concensus would be the way to go. Majority/Minority. If that would be the case, then this supposed 'name issue' would have been resolved. By caving in now, after 20+ years of concession after concession, Macedonia would set the negative precedent. Greece, as 1 country, should not be able to bully another country in to do what it wants. If this happens, it opens up the flood gates for any future problems. Scrap this Unanimous b.s. and go with a Majority/Concensus approach.

2. Should Macedonia even want to be in the EU? I personally don't think they should. Becoming an EU member state could have serious repercussions on the Macedonian Standard of living. I'm not an expert, nor am I an economist but I have simply heard from friends/relatives who live in EU member states who say that it hasn't always been for the best. I'm sure there are benefits to becoming an EU state, but there seems to be major drawbacks as well. As such, I wouldn't sacrifice our identity to join an institution that may not even be worth being a part of.

3. NATO. Sure Macedonia is not a member of NATO but think about this for a second. Macedonia participates in NATO missions, Macedonian troops have the RESPECT of their NATO peers (except maybe Greece), and have the backing of every NATO member -1 to be allowed within the institution. Why rush? By not becoming a NATO member, Macedonia is not OBLIGATED to make Military reforms to meet NATO standards, and surely would have the assistance of NATO should any conflict arise anyway.

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

A video that must be taken seriously.
Albanians in Macedonia keen to be part of a bigger country - YouTube

[George S.]

thanks for replying guys keep it rolling.
Re video DcH the albanians will want to secede once macedonia becomes a member of the eu that will require a name change first.The video is a wake up call so don't change the name.

[George S.]

Greece is plugged in the Matrix

Greece is plugged in the Matrix



By Gorazd Velkovski
September 2, 2008

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3219/2/

Macedonia, as a country, is in negotiations with Greece over its name for the past 17 years. No Government Official in Skopje when asked “what is it that they are negotiating, and why” can give you a straight answer.


As the years went by, the negotiations wondered off into different directions, mostly due to Greek psychosis.


For the past 17 years, the Greek Government has been winning in all talks and meetings, by a long shot.

Macedonia changed its constitution and the flag, only to see Athens appetite increase three fold.


Sure, 124 countries recognized Macedonia as Macedonia, but this is in no way our victory simply because those countries have middle school level history knowledge and know which is which.

Macedonia was caught off guard at least 5 times when countries said they would recognize the constitutional, not the UN name.

Some lobbying came in place when the VMRO party came to power, less than 20 months ago. Prior to it, there was zero, none.


Why is Macedonia stuck in a losing battle?


First and foremost, Macedonia is willing to negotiate their heritage with Government and people of very questionable character. People who claim Phoenician Philosophers and Mathematicians as “Greeks” and refugees claiming to be “Greeks” or “Greek Macedonians” (no such thing) who ironically arrived from various (European, Asian, African) regions to Greece 40-50 years ago.


Athenian Agents (over 20 of them) in Skopje, going by the name of “Political Experts” for A1, Utrinski Vesnik, Dnevnik, Spic… constantly publish stories of Macedonia being ‘doomed’ if it doesn’t change the name! Fear is very powerful and the oldest trick on this ignorant planet. It is used to control and influence masses on many levels. (cough: war on terror, global warming, Russia, Nato….)

Second, is the brainwashing. Macedonia has never been good at it, while Greece are the masters, and kudos to them for that!

Why is Greece so successful? Ever since 1913, the Greek Government has plugged its citizens and newcomers into the Matrix.


In the Matrix movie (most of you have seen it), the Morpheus character says to Neo, "The Matrix is a system Neo, and that system is our enemy. When you are inside it what do you see? The minds of the very people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are part of that system and that makes them our enemies. You have to understand that most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many are so hopelessly dependent on the system, they will fight to defend it".

It is all but impossible to unplug Greeks from their Matrix, because they cannot or will not see that it exists, even when one presents compelling evidence that it does. This coupled with the fact that they have been indoctrinated from kindergarten into believing that they are above all, “Greek greatness” (cried hysterically for outside help even in their civil war), so much for the 'greatness' part.


If anyone points out to their flaws, their lies, which the Macedonian Government has done on dozens of occasions, it causes a reflex `knee jerk` reaction which in it's uniformity of response is startling.

In effect, the whole Greek nation (spoke Albanian, Turkish and Macedonian until 1800’s) is locked into a state of mass denial and self delusion, or a condition known as `cognitive dissonance`. Simply put, this means to be in a state of inner conflict, when one's belief system and experience do not corroborate each other.


The effects of this inner disharmony have to be addressed either by accepting that one's belief system is false, or by finding a way to justify the original belief. Most Greeks opt for the second recourse.


It doesn’t matter what kind of evidence Macedonia presents against Greece and thousands of arguments it has against it. Greece wouldn’t budge. It can’t budge, because if it does, it will destroy the ‘Greek myth’ like a deck of cards. A myth that Greece had spent 60+ years building.

If you tell “Greeks” they are Vlachs, Pomaks, Roma, Albanian, Turkish, Macedonians and show them undisputable evidence large portion moved to the area in the last century, spoke Turkish, Roma, Albanian and not Koine (it was introduced when Greece was created as a country), they’d violently shake their head and tell you they were “Greeks”.

The individual Greek believer must have social support. It is unlikely that one isolated believer could withstand the kind of disconfirming evidence I and others have specified over the years. If, however, the believer is a member of a group of convinced persons who can support one another, I would expect the belief to be maintained and the believers to attempt to proselyte or to persuade non-members that the belief is correct.

In other words, when one's erroneous and discredited belief system, whether it be social, political or in our case historical is shown to be evidently so, there is a clambering for safety in numbers. For the more there are to prevaricate and justify, `move the goal posts` if you will, then the greater the probability that the belief system, however discredited will remain the `received wisdom` of the masses.

This describes Greece exactly. Unlike other nations whose citizens in my experience, are able to perceive and recognize not only the positives in their societies, but the negatives also, Greeks have been so inculcated with a sense of self righteous superiority (ironically the people of the Balkans shouldn't, but do look down on 'Greeks'), that they in `parrot fashion` continue to herald unquestioningly whatever their Government serves them. And their Government serves them a lot.

Each Greek knows and understands his/her place in the Matrix.


This belief system, this Matrix is responsible for what we see today in Greece.
This is precisely why Macedonia should put an immediate halt to the negotiations. You shouldn’t negotiate with someone plugged and or managing the Matrix. You shouldn't speak to individuals, groups, countries who name their leaders "Supreme President".
Macedonians should ask for a certificate before any talks with Greece's representatives. Something along the line "Not Insane". Homer Simpson had one!!!

Is Macedonia negotiating change of name for NATO? I certainly hope not, NATO was instrumental in starting the 2001 conflict. NATO played a major role in destabilizing Macedonia, this has been widely established by Governments, local and foreign journalists, citizens, Macedonian soldiers, the Secret Service.

Is Macedonia negotiating change of name for EU? I certainly hope not, EU is a dictatorship, the worst thing that has happen to Europe, since 'Europe', and will soon fall apart.


Think twice of Putin’s offer. “Recognize Abkhazia and S. Ossetia and you will be known as Macedonia at the UN.” If Putin says it, I believe him, he just shot a tiger. In all fairness, he seems to be the only one who respects international law.


Macedonia can go to the UN and do a roll call, a vote off. Macedonia would win. Macedonia can take and I am convinced will take Greece to Court, and will win. The only way Macedonia will not win is by ‘negotiating’. Time for Macedonia to utilize dozens of American Macedonian legal experts residing in the US who have offered help, but were ignored.

[Risto the Great]

I have to disagree that the corruption in Macedonia at the time was 'caused' by the Greek embargo.

Rather, I would say that the Greek embargo was viewed as another opportunity by those select few, to make tens of millions of dollars, at the expense of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian economy - the exact same way they operated before and after the Greek embargo.

However, it neither began nor ended with the Greek embargo.

Macedonia's economy was already in dire straits before the embargo and this was largely because of the devaluation of the Yugoslav dinar, before Macedonia's independence from Yugoslavia and because of the systematic plundering of the Macedonian economy by the Government and oligarchs at the time. Unemployment in Macedonia in 1990 stood at 23.5%.

Iin 1992 the UN brought sanctions against Serbia, Macedonia's largest trading partner at the time. In Macedonia this led to unbelievable levels of inflation, extreme devaluation of the Macedonian Denar and a hefty surge in Macedonia's unemployment levels.

In 1993, the year before the Greek embargo, but during the time of the UN Sanctions against Serbia, the rate of inflation had jumped some 224%. The unemployment in 1993, was 27%. Macedonia's exports were US$1.055b. Imports were US$1.012b.


The Greek embargo then came into effect the following year, in February 1994. The UN Sanctions against Serbia were still in place. Macedonia's unemployment rate in 1994 jumped by 3% to 30%. Exports were US$1.086b and imports were US$1.271b.


The Greek embargo lasted 19 months and at the same time the UN Sanctions against Serbia were still in effect. By the time when the Greek embargo was withdrawn and the Dayton Agreement signed (which ended the UN Sanctions against Serbia) unemployment in Macedonia had been at 35%, whilst exports had gone up to US$1.2b and imports had gone up to US$1.42b (this is that increased cost in oil and new trading routes). Immediately thereafter, there would be an improvement, though bear in mind, the old trading routes via Solun were not immediately re-established.

Then in 1996, the very next year, with no UN Sanctions against Serbia and no Greek embargo, unemployment had dropped down to 31%. Unfortunately, we then saw 2 years of complete and utter corruption and plundering of the Macedonian economy, by the SDSM-led Macedonian Government at the time, with unemployment going back up to 36% in 1997. Perhaps with this alone you can see what the biggest cause in Macedonia's economy hardship has been - the Macedonian Government (and the Oligarchy) of the time.


Look at all the economy data for the period and you can work out what impact the Greek embargo had on the economy and work out how much was exacerbated by the pre-existing corruption in the Macedonian Government and work out the the actual impact of having to establish new trade routes.

In fact, even the case study in the link you provided says "Economic damages to Macedonia resulting from the blockade are estimated at around $40 million per month plus an 11 percent decrease in economic activity." Those were the costs of the 19-month blockade.

So I reiterate that it was the UN Sanctions against Serbia, coupled with the corruption of the Government and the oligarchy in Macedonia, which were the cause of Macedonia's woeful and even dire economic situation and whilst the Greek embargo certainly played a part, it was minor in comparison and certainly it was not destroying the Macedonian economy and was in fact something that the Macedonian economy could take on (if not for the UN Sanctions against Serbia at the same time), in fact inflation was coming down, exports were increasing, the currency regaining stability, etc.

If the Macedonian Government had waited a few more months, in fact just 2 more months, until November 1995 (just 2 months after the Interim Accord was signed which ended the Greek Embargo with a Macedonian capitulation on the name and the Macedonian flag) until the Dayton Agreement was signed and the sanctions against Serbia dropped, and the Macedonian economy and the denar would see a near immediate re-stabilisation, then those who signed over Macedonia's flag and name, would never have had any way to justify themselves with these stories (read: lies) about the Greek embargo forcing Macedonia's hand. Instead of waiting those 2 months for the circumstances to change in Macedonia's favour and never signing the interim accord, the Government at the time, led by Kiro Gligorov, lied to the Macedonian people and said that the Interim Accord would be gone in 3 months.



Finally, as a side note, to see that you are quoting Gerovski, is indeed quite a disappointment. There's a Mark Twain quote that always springs to mind at the mention of this charlatan, "Figures Don't Lie, Liars Figure".



http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/default-en.as...CF243F984FF307

This was a good post.
I view the interim accord as the beginning of the end for Macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

We are a very stubborn people, and no army, country, nation, or god has been able to wipe us from the earth.

I don't agree.
We are a shrinking people, that is all we can say confidently.

[vicsinad]

Pan-Macedonian Association Meets with Nimetz...

...and tells him irredentism in Skopje is the reason why the term Macedonia does not belong in "FYROM"s future name.

[URL="http://usa.greekreporter.com/2012/02/09/pan-macedonian-association-members-meet-with-un-mediator-nimetz-in-ny/"]http://http://usa.greekreporter.com/2012/02/09/pan-macedonian-association-members-meet-with-un-mediator-nimetz-in-ny/[/URL] 

According to members of the Pan-Macedonian Association of America, who recently had a meeting with Matthew Nimetz in New York, the UN mediator seems to be worried over the irredentism detected in FYROM.

Within the context of the Pan–Macedonian Association’s efforts to prevent “negative developments”, as noted, members of the Association met – once again – with the United Nations Special Envoy to discuss Greece and FYROM negotiations on the name issue. The Special Envoy was briefed on their positions and “Skopje propaganda” against our country.

According to the association’s members, Mr. Nimetz appeared to be “particularly worried” watching videos revealing “Skopje’s irredentism”, in addition to other material submitted by the members of the Pan-Macedonian Association.

Mr. Nimetz avoided expressing any view and listened to the views of both parties, while he was also provided a resolution, approved by the “Macedonians’ Common”, a representative body for Macedonian associations in Greece and the Diaspora. The resolution states “We do not authorize any Greek politician granting our names ‘Macedonian’ and ‘Macedonia’, accepting a complex or geographical definition of the word ‘Macedonia’ in FYROM’s final name”.

Meanwhile, after successive individual meetings he had with Greece and FYROM representatives last month in New York, Mr. Nimetz had expressed his readiness to visit the region, even as soon as February, in order to intensify talks to resolve the name issue.