Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[El Bre]

Here is another nugget from the prodigious statesman Samaras

last week a prominent Greek minister said the end of the dispute would come naturally as Macedonia dissolves and is swallowed up by its neighbours.

“Time is on our side”, newly-minted Culture Minister Antonis Samaras said in an interview for Greek national television ERT on Saturday. “I believe that Skopje will not survive as a single country and that Greece has nothing to be afraid of from the creation of ‘Great Albania’ and ‘Great Bulgaria’.”



Samaras has long been a hardliner on the "Macedonian Question" and other Greek national issues, and was publicly behind the idea of an "Orthodox axis" in the Balkans during the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s. Athens argues that the use of the name Macedonia implies territorial claims towards its own northern province that is called the same.

http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/15959/

[Daskalot]

Mr Gruevski's grandfather, like my own grandfather and two great uncles were conscripted into the greek army. Believe me when I tell you, they were about as greek as tsadziki sauce. They were among the first sent to the front and many of them died for a country that treated them like 5 sacks of shit. You can scour the internet and you'd be hard pressed to find any kind of recognition for the sacrifices made by our people in what is known to Macedonians as "Albanskio Boj", greek chauvanism would never allow for it.

hey... TARATUR man.... taratur...... oh sheit, that must be Turkish.....

[Soldier of Macedon]

Jajik = Tzatziki.

[Ne Smassen]

That's interesting fellas, particularly the fact that you both refer to the event by the same name. I haven't found much on the subject either, can you shed some more light or point us in the right direction?

Macedonian participation in the Greco-Italian war is common knowledge among Aegean Macedonians because everyone knows someone who fought there, but, like I said, finding some mention of their contributions is hard to come by because they are all rolled up with other conscripts of varying ethnicities.

You certainly wont find articles like this;

During World War II, many Italian Americans joined the U.S. armed forces to fight the Axis Powers. An estimated 1.2 million Italian Americans served in the armed forces during World War II; this represented 7.5% of the 16 million total who served.

Of course you will find tomes of information about the NOF or SNOF because portraying us as commie villians is more suitable to their national rhetoric

[Pelister]

The problem for me is that history is being used by the Greeks as a basis for denying Macedonian rights in the here and now (presently).

So when someone tells me its not a historical issue, I disagree with them.

As a wannabe historian, what concerns me is the truth.

The truth can be "negotiated" by politicians (and poor historians), we are seeing that today.

The Greeks are counting on the event that politicians become "interpretors" and "negotiators" because political solutions have very little to do with the historical truth. So what is at stake here is the truth, and the Macedonian politicians are seriously compromising that I think.

The point is that the Macedonians shoulbe seen in their own terms, and not as an expression of someone external to it, or occupying it.

[osiris]

heresay and gossip, in a discussion about morailty.

where is the discussion about the unchallenged greek claims to greekness and what rights does a colonial power have over its colonies historical legacy.

did britain have the rights to indias history.

i may have found his article more relevant if he delved into the modern greek identity and exposed its reality.

sam vakini why do you allow greece to get away with its manufactured greekness surely it is important to point out who these wannaabes are and how they became greek.

[Pelister]

heresay and gossip, in a discussion about morailty.

where is the discussion about the unchallenged greek claims to greekness and what rights does a colonial power have over its colonies historical legacy.

did britain have the rights to indias history.

sam vakini why do you allow greece to get away with its manufactured greekness surely it is important to point out who these wannaabes are and how they became greek.

I don't know where that discussion is, but I would like to see it if it exists.

Because Greeks as colonizers have had all the power in the area of writing. This is the problem - most people in the E.U are getting their information about the Macedonians from the Greeks, or possibly the Bulgarians; it is this kind of colonial discourse that misrepresents who the Macedonians are.

The subalternity of the Macedonians (basically a colonized people who pass many traditions on orally, and have very few recrods), hasn't helped the Macedonian case either.

The other thing that has given Greek colonizing practices the green light is the attitude of Britain and France, on their own, and especially as leaders of the League of Nations in the first quarter of the 20th century.

You should read some of the directives coming from top British officials about how to bring peace to the balkan region following the partition of Macedonia in 1913.

The heads of these European states were sending messages to the Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks to deny the Macedonians, assimilate them and their reasons for doing this was to bring long term peace and stability to the region.

The Macedonians will find no friends in Europe, until the Europeans change their attitudes toward the Macedonians, and see the rise of the Macedonians are a stabilizing factor rather than a destabilizing factor in the region.

i may have found his article more relevant if he delved into the modern greek identity and exposed its reality.

Me too.

[Dimko-piperkata]

Greek by Name

YouTube - Comedy: Greek by Name By Hans Lothar Schteppan

[TrueMacedonian]

This thread f@%king rocks Dimko. I applaud you. This is a very excellent topic. Hail to Hans Lothar Schteppen. A man of great integrity.

[The LION will ROAR]

In Text.....

Comedy: Greek by Name
By Hans Lothar Schteppan
Translated and edited by Risto Stefov
[email protected]
February 12, 2008
Source: Forum Plus, Number 123, 01.02.2008

The satire "Greek by name" from December 12, 2007, is characterized as successfully funny and even humourous, sadly however reality is seldom a "comedy".

If for the Greeks the "name" issue REPRESENTS "Support for the State Philosophy" which is overly excessive, then for the Macedonians it represents a risk of "losing their country and ethnic existense".

Macedonians have been using this name for at least 1,500 years or since many tribes settled the Balkans and mixed with the indigenous people. Greeks on the other hand have gained Macedonian territory, specifically their northern province which for the longest time they called "Northern Greece" only 95 years ago when they took possession of 51% of Macedonia in 1913. Only in 1989 did Greece change the name of its northern province to "Macedonia" under the motto "Attack is the best defense".

It is absurd that Macedonians are even talking to the Greeks knowing that they have little chance of making progress in these unfair negotiations. Thanks to Greece's threat of veto and its irresponsible use of it as well as its position in NATO and the EU it has all the help it needs from the European Community to hold Macedonia back as long as it wants.

Greece very cunningly and abruptly rejected Macedonia's name in 1992 in Lisbon before anyone had a chance to "examine the facts". This rejection also came with misinformation and confusion leading the unaware European ministers to come to the wrong conclusion. Greece lead the European Community into believing that the name "Macedonia" was of no importance to the Republic of Macedonia because allegedly this was a name created by Tito when Yugoslavia became a state of republics in 1944. Thus Greece's strong objection to the name was laid on a foundation of lies. The EU states, without consulting historical data and without examining the facts, were quick to take Athens's side. A similar scenario was repeated in 1993 when Macedonia applied for membership into the United Nations. It seems that justice is not important these days and the sacred Greek might is always placed ahead of Macedonia's right.

If we examine past approaches to the name issue taken by our American "mediator" of the UN, we will find that the whole process is biased in Greece's favour. Actions taken during briefings in Skopje in 1994 and 1995 at best can be described as "desperate".

With the exception of naming the Skopje Airport "Alexander the Great", every gesture Macedonia made in Greece's view should be positive but from what experience has shown Greece has been relentless and has, without thinking twice, used all ammunition delivered to its hands against Macedonia.

Macedonia on the other hand has a great heritage which modern Europe considers to be the cradle of western culture. Ironicaly even though it is well known that Alexander the Great was Macedonian, no one complained when Greece named its airport "Alexander the Great" in late 1989. What justification did the Greeks have? That Alexander the Great spread "Hellenism" to the world during his expeditions? If that were true, and no one can deny that modern Europe in its entirety has profited immensely from Hellenism, then why is there not a single European nation (besides Greece) Greek today? Why is there not a single nation outside of Europe, where Alexander ventured, Greek today?

When Slav tribes were settling the Balkans in the 6th and 7th centuries AD the ancient Greeks had already abandoned Greece and others settled in their place. For well known reasons the Greeks left Greece at the end of the 4th century but the descendents of the ancient Macedonians remained all while Macedonia was a Roman province. Thus the descendents of the ancient Macedonians lived in Macedonia as the descendents of the ancient Thracians lived in Thrace and as the descendents of the Ancient Epirians lived in Epirus.
In time these people assimilated with the Slav tribes who in turn adopted those lands as their home and left their genetic markers in the modern populations. So today we have Slav and ancient Macedonian genetic markers in the blood of the modern Macedonians the same as we have Thracian genetic markers in the blood of the modern Bulgarians and modern Turks living in Eastern Thrace. The same can be said about the modern Greeks and Albanians who carry in their blood the genetic markers from the ancient Epirians.

Even though it is well known that the Turko-Tatar Bulgars settled the Eastern Balkans 150 years after the Slav tribes and took the Slavic language from them, does not prevent the modern Bulgarians from asserting that today's Macedonians allegedly speak "Bulgarian".

Further forward in time, during the 9th century according to George Shtatmiller author of the book "History of South-Easter Europe" the Greeks, drawn by the Slav settlements of Greece, returned to their former fatherland and assimilated the Slavs and Albanians settling that region. So how can the Greeks then claim to be related to the ancient Macedonians?

Contrary to any Greek assertions, Greeks in reality never settled Macedonian territories, not in ancient nor any other time until the 20th century. Macedonians on the other hand have conquered and have occupied Greek lands. The ancient Macedonians, through the League of Corinth, held hegemony over the Greeks for over 120 years during which time they also occupied Athens for a short period.

Thus prior to the 20th century Macedonia was never Greek, not during Roman times when both Macedonia and Greece were Roman colonies, not during the Middle Ages, not during Ottoman times and certainly not until after the 1912, 1913 Balkan Wars when Greece, for the first time, by virtue of conquest, was awarded Macedonian lands including Solun and parts of Thrace. And this Greece did not do alone but with help from its neighbours Serbia, Bulgaria and Montenegro and with the blessings of the Great Powers. Thanks to the Great Powers, Russia in particular, for their support of the four Balkan monarchies which united and declared war on the Ottomans without themselves being swallowed up by Austro-Hungary or Romania.

Let us also remind the world that the Thracians and Epirians disappeared after 1913 only as a result of brutal hellenization at the hands of the Greek state, brutal Bulgarization at the hands of the Bulgarians and Islamization due to Ottoman influence. The Macedonians occupied by Serbia to some extent survived Serbian attempts at assimilation and began to regain their Macedonian consciousness under the cover of Yugoslavia.

It is sad to say that Macedonia's annexation in 1913 happened with the blessing of International right which now reminds it of the shame it committed. It is not fear of the Macedonian hammer that Greece is afraid but of the fear of facing its own shame in public.

As protectors of the European heritage which has flourished for centuries, European Union parliamentarians should be ashamed of forcing Macedonia, a state which in the past has done so much for Europe, to accept a farcical name like "FYROM". This again proves that Europe values business and money far above justice, truth, etiquette and morality.

If this small country has learned anything, it has learned how unfair Europe can be. The 2001 Ohrid Agreement was forced upon it by Brussels bureaucrats without even examining the facts or consulting history. Europe has shown no care for the dangers under the sword of Demiclis it has created for this young state. With this kind of attitude how does Europe expect to hold a united existence?

The only option Macedonia is left with to protect its rights is to present its case to the international community.

Hans Lothar Schteppan is a former German Ambassador to the Republic of Macedonia and author of the book "Macedonian Knot"

[Pelister]

What an eye opener.

Greece very cunningly and abruptly rejected Macedonia's name in 1992 in Lisbon before anyone had a chance to "examine the facts". This rejection also came with misinformation and confusion leading the unaware European ministers to come to the wrong conclusion.

Its what I've been saying all along.

If we examine past approaches to the name issue taken by our American "mediator" of the UN, we will find that the whole process is biased in Greece's favour.

Coming from someone who would know what the state of things were.

It is absurd that Macedonians are even talking to the Greeks knowing that they have little chance of making progress in these unfair negotiations.

Europe unfair, and Ohrid Agreement "forced" upon the Macedonians.

If this small country has learned anything, it has learned how unfair Europe can be. The 2001 Ohrid Agreement was forced upon it by Brussels bureaucrats without even examining the facts or consulting history

Finally this. Europe is calling the shots here.

... it (Greece) has all the help it needs from the European Community to hold Macedonia back as long as it wants.

[Risto the Great]

EU cannot interfere in dispute over name of Macedonia - Czech PM

http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/zpravy/eu-cannot-interfere-in-dispute-over-name-of-macedonia-czech-pm/364884

Skopje - The Czech EU presidency cannot interfere in the dispute between Greece and Macedonia over the latter's name, Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek told CTK after meeting with Macedonian counterpart Nikola Gruevski today.

Topolanek visited Skopje to support its efforts to come closer to the EU.

Gruevski said he believes that the controversy between Macedonia and Greece, that has blocked Skopje's EU and NATO accession efforts, will be settled after the June EP elections.

Topolanek visited Macedonia in his capacity as prime minister of the Czech Republic that has set Western Balkans' integration in the EU as one of the priorities of its ongoing EU presidency.

Topolanek praised Macedonia for meeting all conditions required for its visa-free relations with the EU.

Prague will do everything for its presidency, as well as the following Swedish presidency, to meet the deadline of January 1, 2010, Topolanek said today, referring to the planned lifting of visa requirements for Macedonians travelling to the EU.

He called the dispute, in which Greece is sharply opposed to Skopje's decision to use the name Republic of Macedonia, which, according to Athens, should exclusively refer to the area of the same name in the north of Greece.

Greece wants its neighbour's name to be Former Yugoslavian Republic Macedonia (FYROM), under which it has been registered as a U.N. member.

Topolanek today described the dispute as a bilateral problem of the two countries, in which the EU can only offer its good offices.

The EU can hardly interfere in the dispute, he said.

Gruevski said he believes the problem will be settled after the EP elections, due in June, are over in Greece.

The Greek-Macedonian dispute influenced the course of last year's NATO summit in Bucharest where Croatia and Albania were invited to join NATO but Macedonia's aspirations were vetoed by Greece.

Topolanek today said he left the Bucharest summit dissatisfied. He said Prague fully supported Macedonia's NATO entry aspiration at the time. He said he hopes that this goal will be fulfilled as a result of joint efforts.

Macedonia's preparedness for NATO entry is absolute, he said.

Since December 2005, Macedonia has had the status of EU candidate, but it has not started its accession talks as yet.

Gruevski today said he believes that next year could be set as the date for the talks to be launched.

[Risto the Great]

The Czechs are our friends.
I like them.
And not just the women.

[Venom]

Now if only they would drum into the thick heads of the French and Germans.

[Dimko-piperkata]

Karamanlis says Greece won't bargain over name

The red lines related to national issues are not subject to bargain and Greece will not cave in, Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis is quoted by Naftemporiki daily.

He made the statement during his address to parliament's committee on foreign affairs.

Karamanlis made it clear that "a number of issues hinder FYROM's accession into NATO and the European Union, such as name issue, provocative attitude of top officials and the nationalism".

http://www.makfax.com.mk/en-Us/Details.aspx?itemID=1704

negating, lying and stealing is greece´s proffesion