Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Zarni]

Zarni, I heard something about that on the radio. Do you have a link?

Sadly no I dont

[TrueMacedonian]

DUI: SDSM Would Agree to Anything to be in Power

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/18669/45/

DUI: SDSM Would Agree to Anything to be in Power

Wednesday, 20 July 2011

After a fierce debate in Parliament, where the opposition led by SDSM accused the ruling Government of not protecting Macedonia's national interests, DUI from the podium in parliament said things that Macedonians suspected all along.

Some would say this is a sad day, but in reality, it's a good day when an ethnic Albanian party defends Macedonia's national interests from an internal culprit, in this case an ethnic Macedonian party.

The SDSM accused the ruling government of selling out Macedonia's national interest by allowing minorities in small villages who are over 50% of the population to fly their own flag which with the new law is three times smaller than the Macedonian flag. It also allows politicians to speak their own language if they receive a question from a member of their ethnic community. For the SDSM, this is 'selling out'! *In SDSM's defense, selling the biblical name of the country is a business transaction for which they received suticases with cash.

Ademi, one of the higher ranking DUI officials, appeared amused as he stood at the podium in Parliament. "Are you sure you should be talking about morals?" Ademi asked the opposition from the podium. "You (SDSM) were talking to us (DUI) about things that VMRO would not even consider. Don't sell yourself for something you are not, we all know who you are and what you do!" said Ademi to SDSM officials looking bleakly at the podium."

Ademi was not finished, he was just warming up...

"You (SDSM) were ready to offer us anything we asked for. Including making Albanian the official language on the entire territory, in Court and in Parliament, even letting us have someone from DUI as a Prime Minister. This was your promise to us."

SDSM officials remained gloomy during Ademi's entire speach. It only confirmed what Macedonian media wrote days after the elections. Namely, SDSM was ready to do just about anything to return to power even though they weren't elected.

Ironically, DUI has been under fire by the DPA for not getting anything from their coalition.

[United MKD]

True. So why didn't DUI decide to go in coalition with SDSM? I'm sure if those offers were on the table they wouldn't hesitate to take them rather then be with VMRO?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I take issue with regard to the below:

It also allows politicians to speak their own language if they receive a question from a member of their ethnic community. For the SDSM, this is 'selling out'!

How can one be a politician in Macedonia yet cannot even speak Macedonian? This is selling out. Period.

Crvenkovski is a traitor and a fool that is in no position to do anything. Can anybody refer me to a link where MINA have criticised the policies of Nikola Gruevski?

[TrueMacedonian]

I take issue with regard to the below:

How can one be a politician in Macedonia yet cannot even speak Macedonian? This is selling out. Period.

Crvenkovski is a traitor and a fool that is in no position to do anything. Can anybody refer me to a link where MINA have criticised the policies of Nikola Gruevski?

Nothing much against Gruevski, however something interesting from 2008 about what MINA claims Gruevski wanted to do in office:

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4190/49/

PM Gruevski, sit back, relax
Wednesday, 29 October 2008

Prime Minister Gruevski was elected in office, overwhelmingly, with two reasons. First to cut off negotiations with Greece, second to put an end to the corruption that has plagued the country ever since its independence.


In regards to the ‘name negotiations’ with Greece, the Macedonian Government has exhibited remarkable failures. So much so, the UN negotiator Nimetz, with each proposal solidified his view to match Athens demands.
I never considered recent recognitions by Canada and India as “success”. What success is there when the Government continues to ‘negotiate’ over changing the country's name. Even more disturbing, Skopje is adamant about continuing the negotiations, no matter what!

Recently the Government has released couple of balloons to see how the population may react. Something along the lines “No way are we giving up our national identity” or “Language and identity is our red line”. News for Dimitrov and Protogjer, if your country is the Banana republic, the language automatically becomes the “Banana Language”.
The identity and language are already registered in the UN as “Macedonian”, which makes it even more difficult to understand why the Government keeps mentioning preserving the language and identity, unless as I stated, the Government plans to change the name!?

The EU has said there will be no entrance in their ‘club’ if Macedonia doesn’t change the name! So why is the Government spending taxpayers money sending Ministers to Brussels on daily basis? I don't see Turkish Officials flying to Brussels and doing the same thing, and they are richer and more developed than dozen EU countries combined.

I understand why the Government is ‘negotiating’. Macedonia wants to be seen as constructive, respectful, mature, diplomatic. However, it comes a point in time, and this point came months ago when Macedonia should have realized their constructive approach did not work, with good chance to never work.

One thing is clear, any kind of name change, even adding a letter will fail in a referendum, unless there are plans to fix the referendum, similar to the fixed Quebec secession referendum 51-49% a decade ago. Either way, PM Gruevski, just by his continuing negotiations has lost the backing, at least my backing. Will the Government disappoint the Macedonian people, the people who put them in power, overwhelmingly, remains to be seen.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks TM - but that looks like the opinion of an individual named Gorazd V as it is written in the first person - Does he still write articles for them?

[DedoAleko]

САД ја условува помошта за Македонија

САД ја условува финансиската помош за Македонија со преговорите за името Македонија

Помошта од Американската влада наменета за Македонија е условена од конструктивноста на земјава во преговорите со Грција.

Во документ на 160 - тина страници усвоен од Комитетот за надворешни работи не само што се условува финансиската помош за земјава туку за прв пат по признавањето под уставното име, Македонија се ословува како ФИРОМ.

Образложението на Конгресниот комитет е дека Македонија, за разлика од Грција, не покажува волја за водење на преговорите и, напротив, прави потези кои се провокациски и кавгаџиски кон јужниот сосед, со што ја прекршува Времената спогодба.

- „Грција демонстрира енормно добра волја со тоа што зборот Македонија може да биде вклучен во идното име на Поранешната Југословенска Република Македонија (ПЈРМ), бидејќи терминот е комбиниран со географска одредница, што појаснува дека нема територијални амбиции кон северната покраина во Грција наречена со истото име Македонија, стои во нивното образложение.

Подолу стои: ПЈРМ ја прекршува Времената спогодба во ОН меѓу двете земји со тоа што има подбуцнувачка реторика и пропаганда, со што паѓаат во вода обидите на САД за напредок на преговорите за да се постигнат долгоочекуваните цели на САД и на ОН за наоѓање на взаемно прифатливо решение“, се вели во образложението.

Конгресмените заклучиле дека помошта на САД за Македонија треба да биде условена со покажување волја на ПЈРМ за водење на суштински преговори со Грција.

За оваа одлука на Комитетот за надворешни работи на Конгресот реагира Мето Колоски, првиот човек на Обединетата македонска дијаспора.

Според него, документот е донесен под влијание на грчкото лоби во САД и прогрчки настроените конгресмени и апелира за помош да се спречи оваа одлука на Комитетот да помине и во Конгресот.

Тој потенцира дека проблемот е ургентен и додава дека за прв пат во официјалните документи на САД земјава се нарекува со привремната референца, откако администрацијата предводена од поранешниот претседател Џорџ Буш ја призна Македонија под уставното име во 2004 година.

izvor: http://sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/makedoni...orite-za-imeto

Maybe someone can find this in english,sry I don't have time to do that.

[makedonche]

Dedo Aleko
I copied the extract from the relevant US department, following:-

15 SEC. 807. LIMITATION ON ASSISTANCE TO THE FORMER
16 YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA.
17 (a) FINDINGS.—Congress finds the following:
18 (1) Greece has demonstrated an enormous good
19 will gesture in agreeing that ‘‘Macedonia’’ may be
20 included in the future name of the Former Yugoslav
21 Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) as long as that
22 term is combined with a geographic qualifier that
23 makes it clear that there are no territorial ambitions
24 on the part of the FYROM with regard to the his-
1 torical boundaries of the Greek province of Mac2
edonia.
3 (2) The FYROM continues to utilize materials
4 that violate provisions of the United Nations-bro5
kered Interim Agreement between the FYROM and
6 Greece regarding incendiary rallies, rhetoric, or
7 propaganda, and United Nations-led negotiations be8
tween the FYROM and Greece have so far failed to
9 achieve the longstanding goals of the United States
10 and the United Nations to find a mutually accept11
able, new official name for the FYROM.
12 (b) SENSE OF CONGRESS.—It is the sense of Con13
gress that all United States assistance to the FYROM
14 should be conditioned on the FYROM’s willingness to en15
gage in meaningful discussions with Greece in accordance
16 with United Nations Security Council Resolution 817.
17 (c) LIMITATION.—The Secretary of State may not
18 use funds authorized to be appropriated under this Act
19 for programs and activities that directly or indirectly pro20
mote incendiary rallies, rhetoric, or propaganda by state21
controlled agencies of the FYROM or encourage acts by
22 private entities likely to incite violence, hatred, or hostility,
23 including support for printing and publishing of textbooks,
24 maps, and teaching aids that may include inaccurate in-
1 formation on the histories and geographies of Greece and2 FYROM.

With friends like this who needs enemies?
Exactly what is UMD doing about it?
Source: US government appropriations committee.

[Volk]

Dedo Aleko
I copied the extract from the relevant US department, following:-



With friends like this who needs enemies?
Exactly what is UMD doing about it?
Source: US government appropriations committee.

I find it quite ironic that you attack and seek to destroy UMD at every corner (even when its matters unrelated to them)

Yet these kind of developments shows the need of our voice in Washington. UMD is that voice there and unless your prepared to take over from it I suggest your vendetta campaign agaisnt them gets toned down.

Makedonche my reply to you was more of a collective message rather than a personal one.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yet these kind of developments shows the need of our voice in Washington. UMD is that voice there and unless your prepared to take over from it I suggest your vendetta campaign agaisnt them gets toned down.

All he did was ask what the UMD is doing about it. Apparently the UMD want to obligate America to call Macedonia by its official name. That's great and I fully support that move. Yet the 'voice' of the UMD also keeps talking about obligating Greece to stand by the Interim Accord - which requires all parties to accept Macedonia as FYROM in the EU, NATO and UN. The only irony here is in your own hypocrisy (and that of the UMD); you support the UMD yet at the same time try and present yourself as an opponent against the Interim Accord. Therefore, nobody can be blamed if they consider you an UMD apologist, like they have in the past.

[Volk]

All he did was ask what the UMD is doing about it. Apparently the UMD want to obligate America to call Macedonia by its official name. That's great and I fully support that move. Yet the 'voice' of the UMD also keeps talking about obligating Greece to stand by the Interim Accord - which requires all parties to accept Macedonia as FYROM in the EU, NATO and UN. The only irony here is in your own hypocrisy (and that of the UMD); you support the UMD yet at the same time try and present yourself as an opponent against the Interim Accord. Therefore, nobody can be blamed if they consider you an UMD apologist, like they have in the past.

The benefit of UMD in Washington (which you have acknowledged) outweighs certain ideological differences I have with them. Treating them as an enemy benefits no one except the greeks.

And my statement was to point out that most of you do not want them to exist, yet ask for their leadership in Washington.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Their existence is not my problem. I take issue with some of their policies which I find to be hypocritical and detrimental to the Macedonian Cause. And nobody here (certainly not the MTO Inc.) has asked for their "leadership" anywhere - let alone in Washington.

The benefit of UMD in Washington (which you have acknowledged) outweighs certain ideological differences I have with them.

The benefit -> Having a Macedonian voice in Washington.
Their ideology -> Obligate Greece to abide by the IA and accept Macedonia as FYROM in the EU and NATO.

Either you're ideologically flawed yourself, or you just don't understand what you're saying.

[makedonche]

I find it quite ironic that you attack and seek to destroy UMD at every corner (even when its matters unrelated to them)

Yet these kind of developments shows the need of our voice in Washington. UMD is that voice there and unless your prepared to take over from it I suggest your vendetta campaign agaisnt them gets toned down.

Makedonche my reply to you was more of a collective message rather than a personal one.

Volk
There is no attack on UMD, just a question - what are they doing about it?
Where do I seek to destroy UMD? I would rather they become the USD.
Matters unrelated to them?-are you shitting me! - they are the representatives of their organisation in Washington, the appropriations committee is also in washington - is it not? Isn't their self declared role to lobby the US government to preveny this sort of negativity towards Macedonia?
A voice is Washington is very important! A voice saying the right things would be preferrable, a voice elected by the diaspora would be even more preferrable.
Vendetta campaign? WTF? Please display this vendetta campaign you speak of - it should be relatively easy for you to put together a collection of my posts into a "Vendetta" thread- otherwise stop talking shit!
Your reply is a collective message is it? Kindly demonstrate the "collective" you are referring to.

[makedonche]

The benefit of UMD in Washington (which you have acknowledged) outweighs certain ideological differences I have with them. Treating them as an enemy benefits no one except the greeks.

And my statement was to point out that most of you do not want them to exist, yet ask for their leadership in Washington.

Volk
I disagree with this - idealogical flaws are not the appropriate foundation for an organisation purporting to represent the diaspora Macedonians.
They are not treated as an enemy, they have been given free reign here for quite some time, that has been tightened due to lack of accountability or lack of responses.
It is incorrect to say most of us don't want them to exist - when most of us have been members and financial supporters in the past, there is no thread here titled "Destroy UMD".

[makedonche]

Volk
Have a good read of this and tell me if you agree with any of it, or whether it is a sound basis for reducing funding to Macedonia:-

(a) FINDINGS.—Congress finds the following:
18 (1) Greece has demonstrated an enormous good
19 will gesture in agreeing that ‘‘Macedonia’’ may be
20 included in the future name of the Former Yugoslav
21 Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) as long as that
22 term is combined with a geographic qualifier that
23 makes it clear that there are no territorial ambitions
24 on the part of the FYROM with regard to the his-
1 torical boundaries of the Greek province of Mac2
edonia.

This is outrageous, "an enormous amount of good will" they are kidding aren't they? Are we supposed to be grateful they let us keep the word Macedonia in the name of our country? What the hell are we if we are not Macedonians and our country Macedonia!