Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Onur]

Onur, you are a true ambassador for Turkey.
You should be a foreign diplomat on behalf of Turkey.

We cannot forget the oppression Macedonians endured in Ottoman times, but personally have no desire to blame this on the modern Turks.

Ohh thanks RTG. I am just trying to explain the issues about Turkey because you know, there are a lot of misconception about us but neither of those are not that difficult to clarify. So, thats what i do.

You are right, when you try to communicate with someone or with some society, you shouldn't forget your past experience with them but also you should be fair by remembering the benefits and positive experiences as well as negative ones. The relation of two different society would be baseless and ungrounded if you don't take account of your past experiences, both good and bad.

Onur I am happy that you are on here and posting...

But I do think that there were cases when forced conversions were applied. Of course this was through the Devirshme and from what I read somewhere during times of war when troops were needed to go into battle christians were forced to convert and to go off to fight.

Thanks TrueMacedonian, i am happy to be here and read your posts as well, i mean all the forum members.

Yes, you are right. The exception on religious conversion was the Janissary squad. I gotta remind you tough, whole army of the Empire wasn't consisted with only Janissary. The Janissary was only an infantry squad of the army. There was other type of squads too, which consists with the Muslim Turks. Also the reason for their conversation wasn't because they were going to fight vs Christians. Ottoman Empire also fought vs Muslim states for a long time too like Persian-Turk Safavid dynasty, Arab-Turk Mamluks and other Arab states.



As far as we see from the notes and guide books from Empire era, the decision makers of the Empire thought that the conversion of Janissary squad to Islam was a necessity to achieve the unity with the other squads of the army. They thought that if there would be religious difference between them, they would never think and act like one force. Also one more thing; They were thinking that a Christian would never fight to death for the Sultan and for his Empire. That was their conception at the medieval times. Ofc this conception has changed after the abolish of Janissary squad at 1830s. After that, the empire started to accept Christian citizens to the new army.

What are you talking about TM??
The Turkish occupation of our lands was like the kingdom of heaven descending upon our peoples, where every man was equal, and free of any persecution whatsoever....

Kemal is the true messiah.

Neither TM nor me ever spoke like that, so don't try to pull us to your ground. What you wanna prove with this while we are discussing religious conversion issue? Dont forget, if Turkish regime would be bad as you think, then you would be in Mecca now, praying to Allah and your forum nick would be "Muhammad" instead of Spartan. You have a doubt on this???


I will tell you just one thing Spartan. Nothing in the world consists black and white, there are shades of gray as well. If you cant see the gray then you are just narrow-minded fool.

[Spartan]

What are you talking about TM??
The Turkish occupation of our lands was like the kingdom of heaven descending upon our peoples, where every man was equal, and free of any persecution whatsoever.
When the Ottoman came, the earth brought forth flowers for their feet to tred upon.
All the subjects lived in a bliss akin to the garden of Eden, where every man was free to prosper, and the lands were devoid of all hatred, and the ills that had plagued mankind.
Mothers happily gave their children away to be raised, and fight in defence of the Ottoman empire, i.e heaven on earth.

The thousands of pages of texts referring to the uprisings, and rebellions against ottoman oppression is propoganda created by the western powers in order to villify the Turk. In reality, the Turk was the best thing that ever happened to the Balkans, and all men at that time loved and adored their Muslim rulers.

Missing out on the rennaissance of Europe was a blessing that is evident beyond a doubt til this very day.

Kemal is the true messiah.

[TrueMacedonian]

Onur said;

This is true because Turks never aimed to convert people to Islam or forced everyone to accept Turkish identity. Ottoman Empire was always multi-cultural state since the 1st day of its foundation. It was never a pure Turkish state for Turks only. If it would be like that, Turks could easily assimilate and convert everyone in whole Balkans as muslims and Turks in 600 years. If Greeks did this in 100 years, why Turks wouldn't in 600 years with all that richness and nearly unbeatable power??? because Turks never wanted to do that.

Onur I am happy that you are on here and posting. Mark Mazower stated in his book "The Balkans" that the christians were taxed more than the muslims and that the christians actually asked to be converted to Islam (in some and many cases of course) so as not to pay more taxes. Of course the Ottoman authorities would not allow this to happen all the time seeing as they had a kingdom to run. But I do think that there were cases when forced conversions were applied. Of course this was through the Devirshme and from what I read somewhere during times of war when troops were needed to go into battle christians were forced to convert and to go off to fight.

[Risto the Great]

Onur, you are a true ambassador for Turkey.
You should be a foreign diplomat on behalf of Turkey.

We cannot forget the oppression Macedonians endured in Ottoman times, but personally have no desire to blame this on the modern Turks.

[Onur]

First of all. It`s quite difficult to decide Ataturk`s ethnicity because at those times, ethnicity wasn't that important as nowadays. Ottoman Empire never separated people based on their ethnicity. So, either Macedonian or Anatolian, there was no difference in perception at all and because of this, all people in Balkans intermarried with each other for centuries.

Yes i know, its hard to swallow this today and maybe this is perceived as a horrible thing in today`s mindset but that was the case at the era of empire.

General consensus today for Ataturk`s ethnicity is, he was half Macedonian and half Turkish. Thats my opinion as well but we will never be sure about this.

i can't escape the feeling that theres a video hidden about kemal speaking in macedonian and for the macedonians !

Hidden video?? It`s well known fact that he could speak Turkish, Macedonian as a young boy and laters he learned French and English as foreign languages. This hardly proves anything in terms of 20th century nationalism. For example, probably your Christian great grandfather could speak Turkish as well, and my grand parents in Petric could speak Macedonian.

Attaturk apparently did not want Eastern Thrace to become apart of Turkey, however the greater powers gave it to Turkey, he stated that Eastern Macedonia was never part of Turkey.

This is not true. Great powers wanted to completely erase Turkey from world map. They didnt "give" anything to us. Turkish people regained every handful of soil by themselves. No one gave anything to us.

Yes, Ataturk draw a map himself and named as "National borders" when we were going to start the "war of independence". His aim was today`s Turkey and "Kirkuk, mosul" from today`s Iraq because these cities had %95 Turkish population at 1922.

He did best he can do. I am sure he would prefer Macedonia to be part of Turkey but he knew that it was impossible to achieve in 1922`s conditions. He and his former friends from "Jeune Turcs" movement knew that Macedonia was already lost after 1903-1905. We know this from their poems and journal notes.

Ataturk is a suitable candidate for the title "most mythologized person ever".
The first myth is that Ataturk was born in Solun to Turkish parents and his father was a low-ranking public servant. In fact he was born in Golo Burdo and his native language was not Turkish. He is famous for his great military achievements which were from enormous importance to Turkey but the Turks forget that despite being monocultural the Muslims in the Ottoman Empire were from different ethnic background.

Stilian Kovachev, Bulgarian general from the First Balkan War, wrote in his memoirs how surprised was everybody when Kemal Mustafa arrived without his personal assistant, supposed to translate from Bulgarian to Turkish. The second surprise was that his appearance was 'a way' different from the classical Turkish. However, the biggest surprise came when he started speaking in Bulgarian.
Shortly after he fell in love with Dimitrina Kovacheva who was a daughter of gen. Stilian Kovachev. He loved her so deeply that asked her father for her hand. The answer was negative of course but Ataturk didn't give up. At the end he was so desperate that nearly adopted Orthodox faith. Soon began WWI and he was recalled to Turkey which he obviously considered as his country. That put an end to his romance. Several years later he became the well-known Turkish leader and father of the Turks...

Yet another attempt to analyze Ottoman Empire with 20th century mindset. Ofc the result is this nonsense and bullshit. About the communication between the Bulgarian general and Ataturk; It was either Turkish or Macedonian or both. Also the possibility of that Bulgarian general was speaking Turkish is much higher.

If Ataturk is a candidate for anything, this would be the "man of 20th century", nothing else. If he is not considered as the man of 20th century today, It`s only because he was Turk and fought against great powers but did you know that in Cuba, there are several statues of Ataturk and he is regarded as the most important man of 20th century in their history books for schools??? Turkish government didn't have any influence on this. Cuban government of Fidel Castro did this all by themselves. They regard Ataturk as a hero and one of most important historical symbol to Cuban people by giving same status with their "Che Guevara".

as my father often says in 600 years of ottoman empire we still retained our language religion amd much of our cultural identity, whears in less than 100 the greeks have attempted and ethno genocide. i believe the ottoman empire has been vilfied unfairly and must be reevaluated and judged in its historical context not by 20 century standards but by comparing the actions of the other empires of the same time, like the spainish in latin america and the english in africa australia etc.

atesh i have heard that kemal cried when macedonia was divided up between the 3 balkan amigos greece serbia and bulgaria, do you know anything about that.

This is true because Turks never aimed to convert people to Islam or forced everyone to accept Turkish identity. Ottoman Empire was always multi-cultural state since the 1st day of its foundation. It was never a pure Turkish state for Turks only. If it would be like that, Turks could easily assimilate and convert everyone in whole Balkans as muslims and Turks in 600 years. If Greeks did this in 100 years, why Turks wouldn't in 600 years with all that richness and nearly unbeatable power??? because Turks never wanted to do that.


Yes, the loss of Macedonia was a big shock to everyone in Turkey at 1913. 100s of melancholic and sad poems and songs has been written about Uskup, Manastir(Skopje, Bitola) and whole Macedonia at that time. Not only Ataturk, everyone cried for it but after 1903-1905, everyone knew that Macedonia was going to be separated from Turkey. Thats why "Jeune Turcs" did coup-d`etat at 1908 to take control of the government and save the situation in Macedonia.

The modern Turkish ethnic group is similar to the Greek ethnic group, in that it is a modernly constructed group based on people's religion at the turn of last century. So, when people say that he is Turkish, it is probably true in the modern sense of the word (hell, he was the founder of modern Turkey of course he can be considered Turkish).

If it is true that he is ethnically Macedonian on his maternal side, then i'd say that this piece of information has the potential to bring Macedonian and Turkish relations closer, so long as it is not presented as a competition for ownership, but rather a piece of common history.

From what I understand, the modern Turkish ethnic group is quite a mix historically and ethnically speaking, having adopted its language from asiatic tribes coming westwards, which mixed with and assimilated the local Mediterranean populations to form what are now known as Turks. I don't really feel the need to bring this point up all the time because 1. unlike Greeks, Turks realise these facts, and 2. Turks do not deny Macedonians the right to exist with hypocritical arguments and idiotic politics like our Greek neighbours do.

Modern Turkey is formed like you described but this wasn't purely our decision. Historical conditions of post WW-1 and Great powers forced us to do that because Turkey simply had no other choice. This wasn't a big problem for us tough, since our former state, Ottoman Empire was already multi-cultural Empire. So, our territories just became smaller after 1922 and we became Republic but the human resource and culture in Turkey was quite same as in Empire days. The difference was, Turkey became a country with %95 Muslim majority after population exchange at 1924.


I got one question to you tough. Do you think the situation in Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, Moldova, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania etc. is different than Turkey???

All Balkan countries are no different than Turkey in terms of cultural harmony of heterogeneous ethnic groups. 1000+ years of Balkan history dictates this.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bump.

This was an interesting thread and discussion, Onur might find many of the posts relating to Mustafa Kemal interesting.

[VMRO]

VMRO, do you any information further to that? A link or source?

I do, once i have some time to locate it i will put it up, i have a source aswell

[Daskalot]

It is Turkic word. Some people however misinterpret it as Archaic Macedonian.

Ata is Turkic for father.

What Makedonin and SoM says is true, there is no evidence of these words being of Macedonian origins whatsoever. They are Turkic.

[makedonin]

Magedon, I am quite confident that the word "At" for 'horse' is Turkic. Where did you read that it was Macedonian?

It is Turkic word. Some people however misinterpret it as Archaic Macedonian.

Ata is Turkic for father.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Magedon, I am quite confident that the word "At" for 'horse' is Turkic. Where did you read that it was Macedonian?

[Magedon]

Baba is actually an Arabic word, which the Turks adopted at some stage during and/or after their conversion to Islam. The modern Greeks and Albanians also use the same word for the same purpose, while the modern Bulgarians use the Turkic Bulgar word Bashta.

In Old Turkic the word 'At' means a horse, while 'Ata' means 'father', but I am not sure of its origin, it resembles Indo-European, as does the city of Karakorum, a Turkic city name in Mongolia almost identical to the Karakoram ranges in Asia:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/312055/Karakoram-Range

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram

The name is explained as follows:

Kara = Black
Koram/Korum = Mountain.

Gora = Mountain in Slavic
Horos = Mountain in Greek (Agios Horos - Sveta Gora - Holy Mountain)

At and Ata are known archaic words for horse and father in archaic Macedonian.In fact At is used even today here. Pozzz

[makedonin]

But so many Macedonians are -ov and -ev BM.
How many Bulgars have retained their Turkic/Tartar names?

ask how many Russians are -ov and -ev.

they must be Bulgarians lol Only Bulgars have such stupid logic.



As for the Tartar names, they are proud that there is somebody such as Asparuhov. That is good remain.

[Soldier of Macedon]

if I fell in love with Macedonian girl and the condition to marry her is to become -ski, well that's certainly not gonna happen

That's funny. You appear confused somewhat, should I have expected a higher standard?

[Risto the Great]

I think he means "Bulgarian" as in anybody speaking a remotely slavic language in Europe. Like most Bulgarians mean it.

[Dejan]

If Ataturk was born in Golo Brdo, why would he be speaking 'bulgarian'? Don't you mean Macedonian?