The secrets of Macedonian civilization!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Given the lack of evidence which would be available these days, like photographs, for example, I think it is difficult to determine which exact symbol was used most frequently. However, the fact that the 16-ray sun is featured on the tombstone of a Macedonian king, one would be inclined to think that it was more prevalent as a national symbol.

But, like I said previously, none of this justifies that pathetic symbol change by 'political' Dostoinstvo.

[julie]

Amazing, over 2000 years of history in these finds, the Macedonian people have the richest history

[George S.]

Is'nt it amazing our real symbol is the 16 ray sun & we just let someone take it away from us without a fight.Before the andranikos discovery the greeks never knew much of the macedonian symbols.It's only been a recent phenomenon.Some of the crazy claims the greeks are claiming that they have exclusive right to the 16 ray sun symbol because they discovered it in kutlesh vergina,they claim it is this symbol only appears there.Well i can take you to ROM & it appears every where in churches etc,the greek claims can be negated by that fact alone.The other fact is macedonians used those symbols for thousands of years & not greeks.If andronikus didn't bring up the gold larnax in 1978 the greeks would never have known about it.Who thinks that we should have given up our 16 ray sun & settled for a 8 ray sun or ventilator simply wants to capitulate.

[Vangelovski]

What sort of evidence are you looking for that would specifically prove that those shields belonged to Macedonian soldiers, aside from the fact that they were unearthed in Macedonia and dated to the reign of the ancient Macedonians? Who else would they have belonged to, if not Macedonians, particularly in the inland regions of Pelagonia, where foreigners would have been much less than on the coast? Is there an example you can refer to with the 16-ray sun which can be used as a benchmark?

SoM, all we have is a number of shields (how many are we talking about?) which happen to have been found on Macedonian territory. They have been 'dated' to the second century BC (I think you are familiar with the problems associated with 'dating'). Other than that, we have no other information. It is a huge leap to automatically assume that those shields belonged to the Macedonian army. Particularly taking into consideration that the rule of Perseus was when the Romans finally conqured Macedonia. Further, these shields may just have been captured "loot" from other armies. There is nothing that connects those shields with the Macedonian army or that symbol with a Macedonian state.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

No evidence has been provided that the shield belonged to Macedonian soldiers. Further, I'm not willing to accept the classification of those auction sites as definitive. Do you have any actual evidence that comes from a credible source and provides evidence based clarification that they are Macedonian.

What other evidence you need than the fact that this symbol was found in a Royal Tomb as well?

I have provided enough credible publication on these shields done by mixed international archaeologists.

As far as I know this is the second only Macedonian Royal Tomb beside the one from Aigae - Kutlesh.

Do you have any links/further information on the second last image you provided above?

KINGS of MACEDON. Time of Philip V and Perseus. 187-168 BC. AR Tetrobol (15mm, 1.84 g). Pella or Amphipolis mint. Struck circa 184-179 BC. Macedonian shield with ornament of four crescents on boss / Stern of galley left; star of eight rays above. Liampi, Schild M43c; SNG Copenhagen 1289. VF, toned, edge chipped.

From the Jörg Müller Collection.

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=446828

B2803. MACEDON, AUTOMOUS ISSUE UNDER PERSEUS, 179-168 BC. AR 2 1/2 Obol, 1.66 gm., Gaebler.122. Macedonian shield with spiral star at center/Prow r. VF. Scarce.

http://www.edgarlowen.com/a44cg.shtml

I can't offer you more pictures than the available from auction sites.




This symbol has most probably inspired the name
for the galactic star spiral:



Galactic Surveyors
Perseus Spiral Arm of the Milky Way much closer than thought


The Perseus spiral arm, the nearest spiral arm in the Milky Way outside the Sun's orbit, lies only half as far from Earth as some previous results had suggested.

http://www.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de/public/pr/pr-perseus_en.html

The Perseus Arm is one of two major spiral arms of the Milky Way galaxy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_Arm

[Bratot]

SoM, all we have is a number of shields (how many are we talking about?) which happen to have been found on Macedonian territory. They have been 'dated' to the second century BC (I think you are familiar with the problems associated with 'dating'). Other than that, we have no other information. It is a huge leap to automatically assume that those shields belonged to the Macedonian army. Particularly taking into consideration that the rule of Perseus was when the Romans finally conqured Macedonia. Further, these shields may just have been captured "loot" from other armies. There is nothing that connects those shields with the Macedonian army or that symbol with a Macedonian state.

The tomb where the shields are found dates to the 4 century BC.

A royal grave from the 4th century B.C. has been revealed by archaeologists at the foot of Selecka Planina, between Prilep villages Krusevica and Bonce.
Taking into account its monumental dimensions, a royal dignitary must surely be resting in the grave, says archaeologist Antonio Jakimovski from the Museum of Macedonia. He is part of the team led by archaeologist Viktor Lilcic, who has claimed that he is on the trace of revealing the capital of the Upper Macedonian Kingdom Pelagonija.
“The royal grave is located at site Staro Bonce. We have revealed that the chamber was surrounded by a protective fence – a type of a podium, constructed with massive rectangle stone blocs”, says Jakimovski.
According to Lilcic, the center of the antique Pelagonians is located on mountain top Visoka at Selecka Planina. Scientists have traced the capital of the Pelagonija kings and capital of Macedonia from the 4th century B.C. for 165 years.

Stonehenge in Macedonia is the first impression when one sees an unusual tomb archaeologists have been unearthing from the firm claws of the earth for a month and a half. They say it is the only of the kind in the world and that one of the Macedonian kings was buried there. The tomb was supposed to have been raided in the antique period but scientists believe a part of the tomb has resisted greedy hands of tomb raiders for centuries. Archaeologists believe that one preserved chamber dates from the 4th century BC when a dignitary was buried there. Even if the chamber was empty, it is enough that a unique structure in the world - a Macedonian-type tomb encircled with a ring of massive stone blocks - has been found.
The tomb is located in a region that has been very responsive for archaeology for the past year. The public remembers it for the remains of Macedonian shields that were unearthed near Bonce last year. The tomb is 900 meters away from the place the shields were discovered under Visoka Mountain.
An arched part of the tomb is 11 meters long and 3 meters high. It was built in stone blocks without mortar. The blocks were processed with refinement, chiseled and joined together. They weigh 2-3 tons. A half of the ring-wall has been unearthed so far. Its west section consists of two rows of blocks and is 1.20 meters high. The east section of the ring has four rows of blocks and is 1.80 meters high. Archaeologists have also found an access to the tomb, a path chiseled in rock and then coated with large stone blocks. The path cascades to the arched part the floor of which was also chiseled in rock.
“The tomb was encircled with the ring and earth was piled on it as a mound. The higher the mound, the buried person was more important. According to the way it was built, only a king could have been buried in there. There was no other man at the time, and even today, that could pay for such funeral. This is a tomb that is unique in the world. In its concept, it is similar to the Macedonian-type tombs as is that in Vergina, but with elements left from the Iron Age - the ring,” archaeologist and the head of excavations Antonio Jakimovski explains.
“ The circle symbolizes the Universe. The upper semicircle is the place where deities lived and the kings wanted to dwell,” says Viktor Lilcic, the head of the Visoka and Old Bonce Project. He adds the tomb was robbed in the 3rd century BC but has preserved its monumental appearance.

http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=21345&rub=43

[Bratot]

The shields’ value is even greater, because they bear the name of Macedonian king Demetrius, one of the heirs of Alexander of Macedonia, stresses Temelkovski, adding that such shields were used in parades by the guard of king Demetrius.

http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=16338

[Voltron]

It is not Borza's claim only and yet you are admitting to support with full heart the biggest Greek propaganda lie in the last century.

Bratot, if you dont mind of course. Can you elaborate on the biggest Greek propaganda lie you mentioned ?

[Bratot]

Bratot, if you dont mind of course. Can you elaborate on the biggest Greek propaganda lie you mentioned ?

Try with these:

1. Busting the "Vergina Tomb" myth

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2772&highlight=Tomb

2. Agamemnon mask - another forgery?

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2243&highlight=Tomb

3. Forgeries in Modern Greek History

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=83&highlight=Tomb

4. The pen is mightier then the sword

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=720&highlight=Tomb

5. The National Imagination in Greece

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4509&highlight=Tomb

[Vangelovski]

The tomb is located in a region that has been very responsive for archaeology for the past year. The public remembers it for the remains of Macedonian shields that were unearthed near Bonce last year. The tomb is 900 meters away from the place the shields were discovered under Visoka Mountain.

Bratot, the article states that the shields were not discovered in the tomb, but nearly 1km away.

[Voltron]

Bratot, you said the biggest Greek propaganda lie within the last century. What you state above are numerous items. Il stick with Vergina.

I noticed the first page deals with DNA testing. What a great start.
Anyway, if your problem is "who" was in the tomb than that is debatable.

Keep in mind, if it wasnt for Andronikos the sunburst would of never made an impact on this issue. He is the man that had publicised the findings to such a degree that basically turned it into a national dispute. He probably never gave it thought that would ever happen. This is the only issue I can fault him over since the sunburst is not found only in Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Vangelovski,

It is still in the archaelogical site of this ancient Macedonian town that played important role.

Isn't enough that on these coins depicting those shields is writen Makedon?

To whom else they would probably belong?

[Bratot]

Bratot, you said the biggest Greek propaganda lie within the last century. What you state above are numerous items. Il stick with Vergina.

I noticed the first page deals with DNA testing. What a great start.
Anyway, if your problem is "who" was in the tomb than that is debatable.

Stick to the one you like, the reasons behind all those forgery examples are same.

I 'activated' the 'vergina' thread agean so lets not polute this thread anymore.

Keep in mind, if it wasnt for Andronikos the sunburst would of never made an impact on this issue. He is the man that had publicised the findings to such a degree that basically turned it into a national dispute. He probably never gave it thought that would ever happen. This is the only issue I can fault him over since the sunburst is not found only in Macedonia.

That's another argument, but I am sure Vangelovski and Indigen have made up perfect explanation on that part as well.

So, I'll leave them to you, to explain why this symbol appeared also on Illyrian, Thracian, Spartan shields and coins or even on Crete (if I'm not wrong).

[Volk]

I think what needs to be stressed here is that the Kutlesko Sonce is our national symbol, but Macedonia has other symbols that need to be investigated and celebrated.

Having a rich history is nothing to be afraid of, quite the opposite.

[Voltron]

Stick to the one you like, the reasons behind all those forgery examples are same.

I 'activated' the 'vergina' thread agean so lets not polute this thread anymore.



That's another argument, but I am sure Vangelovski and Indigen have made up perfect explanation on that part as well.

So, I'll leave them to you, to explain why this symbol appeared also on Illyrian, Thracian, Spartan shields and coins or even on Crete.

And Sicily ^

Id like to see Illyiran and Thracian examples of it. Anyway, if you want me to bring it to the Vergina thread than I will. Dont mean to bog down your thread, just noticed a statement I wanted some clarifcation on.