The secrets of Macedonian civilization!

[Bratot]

It is the national symbol of Georgia! The Christian Cross is also used as a national symbol by may nations and it is a cultural religious symbol of all Christians.

It's used by many other people, like the Hunza tribe claiming to be descendants of Alexander's army.

There are plenty historical connections between Georgia and ancient Macedonia during the contest of Alexandar.

For me it's not surprising to see the Symbol of Eternity on Georgian passports.

Brate, that banner/flag with the vrtuska looks to me to be a bit too large to be carried by one or two people or is it just a close photo shot that makes it appear like that?

It is big in reality too, but one person can carry it.

What is the source for all this info? Again we need some academic or credible source to back up the validity of the info and I did not see any in that thread, not taking into account the Russian video info here,? The link for the shield is some gallery founded by a couple Macedonians and a few associates and I really can not accept that as the source for evidence regarding the shield. Academics and Macedonian institutions need to be the source for any information pertaining to that shield.

I guess if the same video originated from some American TV station you would accept as more valid?

The Russians are giving very good information based on their researches and of course they tend to be little subjective and to seek their roots in Ancient Macedonia, but that doesn't exclude their contribution to emphasize the significance of this symbol on a higher level and for us to be easier to support our own position.

Next time you visit Macedonia, instead of having tulumba in city mall go to Museum of Macedonia, the Archeology section.

http://www.musmk.org.mk/

I don't know about how widely it was used by Macedonians in ancient time because the coins collections available online do not provide much evidence for that and I used to have access to the book "Macedonian 4000 years.....bla bla (or Grk malakies)", which was well illustrated and covered much about art and culture of Macedonians in antiquity, and I did not see any mention of this supposedly pervasive "national" symbol, and as I have not seen it in any of the other history books I have also read.

Who cares about the Greeks and what they wrote?

If the ancient shield and the coins are not enough for you to understand the place of this symbol in the Macedonian kingdom than expecting 'book' where some western authority will confirm this is absurdity.

This is the 12-rays sun version on a shield found at Bonche:

http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2006/sonce643.pdf/40_41_stit.pdf

And the Symbol of Eternity on a shield found in Zrze prilepsko:








The tombstone of Goce Delcev is full of this symbol:

[Vangelovski]

Nothing more and nothing less that this symbol is well known and used in Macedonia, even on that occassion from 2008.

I guess you read this thread and you saw this symbol being engraved on our historical monuments, the tombstones in Aegean Macedonia, the tombstone of Goce Delchev, the ancient cups, ancient coins, the Samoil's and Kale fortress, many ancient decorations and old churches.

It's very unique symbol that ancient Macedonian worshiped, carried with them and it has been the only symbol that was so intensivelly well preserved during all periods, showing continuity of our old tradition and expressing Macedonian spirit.

Are you talking about the ventilator? What was the purpose of using the "symbol of eternity" alongside the ventilator? Were they tyring to demonstrate that they'll use anything execpt a symbol that Greece considers to be its own?

Further, Indigen makes a very valid point. There is nothing to suggest that this "symbol of eternity" was even used by ancient Macedonians. The fact that some sheild has been found in Zrze means very little. Macedonians soldiers were not the only ones to pass through.

[Bratot]

There is nothing I could add to your silliness.

[Vangelovski]

There is nothing I could add to your silliness.

How about some logic to tbe ventilator you posted and some evidence that this "symbol of eternity" was used by ancient Macedonians as opposed to someone who may or may not have been Macedonian.

[ennea]

Who cares about the Greeks and what they wrote?

Obviously, not the one who made this inaccurate depiction, because it's misspelled. (ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΥ, not ΒΑΣΙΛΕΟΣ ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΨ)

[indigen]

It's used by many other people, like the Hunza tribe claiming to be descendants of Alexander's army.

There are plenty historical connections between Georgia and ancient Macedonia during the contest of Alexandar.

For me it's not surprising to see the Symbol of Eternity on Georgian passports.

But I can not find it on the following very significant historical object for Macedonians and Macedonia:

I guess if the same video originated from some American TV station you would accept as more valid?

Not really but I was merely saying that I have not taken into account the Russian video clip because I don't understand Russian, for one, and because it is a video clip and I am on a forum that mainly uses the written word as a form of primary communication.

The Russians are giving very good information based on their researches and of course they tend to be little subjective and to seek their roots in Ancient Macedonia, but that doesn't exclude their contribution to emphasize the significance of this symbol on a higher level and for us to be easier to support our own position.

I have NO problem with Russians giving different interpretations to the history served up by western imperialist interests provided we take into account their political agendas and priorities for the interpretation.

Next time you visit Macedonia, instead of having tulumba in city mall go to Museum of Macedonia, the Archeology section.
http://www.musmk.org.mk/

Haha... I have not been there for a while and not that inspired to visit soon. I would NOT like to go there and find that it is designated as part of the "HELLENIC PERIOD (ERA)", as it most likely IS.

".....Инаку, археолошкиот локалитет Старо Бонче на кој се откриени овие вредни штитови се наоѓа во близина на истоименото село во прилепскиот дел на Пелагонија и во Археолошката карта на Република Македонија се води како хеленистичка и доцноантичка некропола. Во Нумизматичката збирка на Музејот во Прилеп се евидентирани поголем број монети од повеќе македонскикралеви со потекло од Старо Бонче, што значи дека на тоа место подолго време егзистирал град. Со оглед на распространетоста на локалитетот, се работи за поголем град. http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broev...40_41_stit.pdf

Who cares about the Greeks and what they wrote?

The book itself was very well put together and had extensive colour photos of art and the findings of Manolis Andronikos at Kutlesh (Vergina) and also had a number of respected international scholars who presented papers in the publication. This was a sophisticated subversive propaganda work that was aimed at the wider Western audience and had a semblance of "balance" in its presentation. It was being given away (1992) for free to local journalists in Australia by the Greek consuls, and who knows who else, and one journalist gave it away to us because it was too much for her to bother reading through it!

It was in reference to the title that I wrote "....bla bla (or Grk malakies)" about (as well as the general claims of most of the authors and editors) but the photos and cultural information was comprehensive and all there for us to make our own interpretations of it. One artist (that I know of) did do that and I can see much of his work now being propagated all over the internet by Macedonians.

GREEK LANDS IN HISTORY:
MACEDONIA: 4000 YEARS OF GREEK HISTORY AND CIVILIZATION

General Editor
M.B. SAKELLARIOU
Member of the Academy of Athens

EKDOTIKE ATHENON S.A.
1993

ISBN 960~213~82-2
Copyright ~ 1982 by EKDOTIKE ATHENON S.A.
I, Vissarionos Street, Athens 135, Greece
First published in Greek under the title
"MAKE~ONIA 4000 zpovw~ =~Vt~; iOTopiCtS loci ~O\ITtOpOU"

This edition
Copyright ~ 1983 by EKDOTIKE ATHENON S.A.
Printed and bound in Greece by EKDOTIKE ELLADOS S.A.
An affiliated company - 8, Philadelphias Street, Athens

Publishers: George A. Christopoulos, John C. Bastias
Editors:
ANCIENT MACEDONIA: Miltiades B. Hatzopoulos, Louisa D. Loukopoulos
BYZANTINE MACEDONIA: Kyriaki Mamoni
MODERN MACEDONIA: Joanna Diamantourou
Editorial Supervision and Illustrations: Iris Tzachili-Douskou
English edition supervised by H.L. Turner
Art Director: Angela Simou
Bibliography: Litsa Katsa
Byzantine maps: Barbara Delivoria
Maps and diagrams drawn by Tonia Kotsoni


CONTRIBUTORS:

Manolis Andronikos
Professor of Archaeology,
University of Thessalonike

Robert Browning
Emeritus Professor,
Birkbeck College,
University of London

Manolis Chatzidakis
Historian of Byzantine Art,
Member of the Academy of Athens

Aikaterini Christophilopoulou
Professor of Byzantine History,
University of Athens

Joanna Diamantourou
Historian

Constantine Dimaras
Emeritus Professor,
University of Paris,
Sorbonne

Jack R. Ellis
Senior Lecturer,
Department of Classical Studies,
Monash University,
Australia

Helen Glykatzi-Ahrweiler
Professor of Byzantine History,
University of Paris, I.

N. G. L. Hammond
Emeritus Professor of Greek,
University of Bristol,
Honorary Fellow of Clare College,
Cambridge

John Karayannopulos
~Professor of Byzantine History,
University of Thessalonike

Constantine Kephalas
Honorary President of the Museum of Folklore and Ethnology,
Thessalonike

Evangelos Kofos
Historian,
Ph. D. in History,
London University.

John Koliopoulos
Associate Professor,
Department of Medieval and Modern History,
University of Thessalonike

Nicholas Moutsopoulos
Professor of Architecture at the Thessalonike Polytechnic School,
Corresponding Member,
Academy of Athens

Dimitrios Pandermalis
Professor of Archaeology,
University of Thessalonike

Charalambos Papastathis
Associate Professor,
Department of History,
Philosophy and Sociology of Law,
University of Thessalonike

Fanoula Papazoglou
Professor of Ancient History,
University of Belgrade

Michael B. Sakellariou
Member of the Academy of Athens,
Emeritus Professor,
University of Thessalonike,
Director of the Institute for Ancient Greek and Roman Studies,
National Hellenic Research Foundation

Michel Sivignon
Professor of Geography,
University Paris-Nord

Nicholas Svoronos
Emeritus Professor,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes,
Paris

Stavros Theophanides
Professor of Applied Economics,
Panteios Graduate
School of Political Sciences,
Athens

John Touratsoglou
Inspector of Antiquities,
Ph. D. Saarland University,
West Germany

Anna Tsitouridou
Assistant Lecturer,
Department of Byzantine History,
University of Thessalonike

Apostolos Vacalopoulos
Emeritus Professor,
University of Thessalonike

F.W. Walbank
Emeritus Professor,
University of Liverpool

Kenneth A. Wardle
Lecturer in Aegean Prehistory,
Department of Ancient History and Archaeology,
University of Birmingham,
England

If the ancient shield and the coins are not enough for you to understand the place of this symbol in the Macedonian kingdom than expecting 'book' where some western authority will confirm this is absurdity.

As I have stated elsewhere, the coins that I am aware of in online coin archives are rare (I can only see one from the reign of Persej or Perseus) and there are many coin issues utilising varied and various motifs. The 8-ray Sun seems to be the most commonly used symbol and has entered into the Christian tradition and thus it would be in the running for the most commonly used Macedonian symbol in continuity, amongst any other contenders.

Can you provide details of the shield and its supposed dated age and origin?

http://edgarlowen.com/b2803.jpg
8912. MACEDON, AUTONOMOUS ISSUE UNDER PERSEUS, 179-168 BC. AR 2 1/2 Obol, 1.66
gm., Gaebler.122. Macedonian shield with spiral star at center/Prow r. VF.
Scarce.
On sale at: $225. Place An Order:
http://edgarlowen.com/greek-coins-greece.shtml

This is the 12-rays sun version on a shield found at Bonche:

That is a good find but useless if it is presented as a find from the "Hellenic Era"!

The tombstone of Goce Delcev is full of this symbol:

Goce Delcev grave was constructed during Communist Era in SFRJ/SRM and most likely that symbol had (and probably still has) pan-Slavic ideological underpinnings!

[indigen]

Obviously, not the one who made this inaccurate depiction, because it's misspelled. (ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΥ, not ΒΑΣΙΛΕΟΣ ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΨ)

Thanks for pointing out the very SLOPPY finish on an otherwise very nice image.

[Bratot]

Do you know what 'hellenistic era' means at all? (your translation is incorect: it's not 'hellenic' but 'hellenistic' from хеленистичка)

Do you make a difference between 'hellenic', 'hellenism' and 'hellenistic'?

Also, the tomb supposedly of Philip II Macedonian is another controversy because there are many different interpretatons of those artifacts and there are many mistakes confirmed already.

There is a whole thread started by TM about this!

"Many European, Australian, and North American scholars, while applauding the importance of Andronikos's discoveries, have remained skeptical about Andronikos's identification of the deceased."

"[Andronikos] presented his theories [that the tombs were those of Alexander's father and his family] with great skill, and the Greek nation responded with fervent enthusiasm," Borza said. "Indeed I was one of those who, in two early articles in the late 1970s, accepted Andronikos' view that the remains were those of Philip II."


Borza started to doubt Andronikos' conclusions, however, as he studied the evidence.

He contacted Olga Palagia, an art historian at the University of Athens, to evaluate the tombs' construction, pottery, and paintings.

Soon the duo realized the significance of the fact that Tomb II and Tomb III were built using a curved ceilings called barrel vaults.

"The earliest securely dated barrel vault in Greece dates to the late 320s [B.C.], nearly a generation after the death of Philip II," Borza told National Geographic News.

Palagia also found that paintings on the exterior frieze of the tomb reflected themes that were likely from the age of Alexander the Great, rather than that of his father.

(Alexander the Great's "Crown," Shield Discovered?" Sara Goudarzi for National Geographic News, April 23, 2008)


Philip III Arhideus (359 BC - 317 BC) was the son of Philip II of marriage by Philina from Larissa, Thessaly. His born name was Arhideus while the name of Philip he took after he became King of Macedonia on 11 June 323 BC. He was half-brother of Alexander.

Certain more reasonable Greek historians in the shadow of the propaganda as Triandafyllos D. Papazois openly criticize Andronikos:

"This view on which Professor Andronikos' final
conclusions on the identity of the dead and the
tombs of Vergina were based was, in my opinion,
a serious historical error of facts in the field of
archaeology..”

With their aggressive marketing tricks Greeks puts false claims about the tomb of Philip II so they can add greater value to the findings, and with that for their historic ambitions.

Of course, they received earnest assistance by the Brits in forging these findings.

This error of facts was significantly reinforced by the conclusions of a group of British scientists
under Anatomist Dr. J. Musgrave, who supported in their report that “…they succeeded in restoring
the head of King Philip II based on the skull bones discovered in Tomb II”
(Transactions of the International Congress of Classical Archaeology XII, Athens 4 10.9.1983).

The possibility, this skeleton to be that of Philip II of Macedon collapsed, according to new study published in the April 21 issued by the journal “Science”.

Not the last, but entirely consistent in its objectivity is the comment of Winthrop Lindsay Adams, a professor of history at the University of Utah:
"Indeed for most scholars working in fourth-century Macedonia, the original attribution by Andronikos now seems doubtful"

http://macedonianspark.com/en/history-ideology/exposingpropaganda/396-grcki-naodi-vergina

[Bratot]

But I can not find it on the following very significant historical object for Macedonians and Macedonia:

Be careful what logic you chose to follow, because someone could ask how significant the symbol of Kutlesh really was if he wasn't significantly preserved in our common tradition?

Goce Delcev grave was constructed during Communist Era in SFRJ/SRM!

This is so poor argument I'm even surprised you are trying to undermine an ancient symbol usage with this.
Those same Communists have voted for the 16 rayed sun on our flag.

Anyway...it seems you are ready to pick up even a soft shit from the ground just to support your lose theory.

[Volk]

The arguments of some that the only Macedonian symbol should be the kurlesko sonce or nothing (because anything else is a step back due to greek pressure) is quite simply moronic.

[indigen]

the only Macedonian symbol should be the kurlesko sonce

KuRlesko sonce, now there is a project for someone with some creative imagination. The arguments against Macedonian INDIGENOUS CONTINUITY of blood, culture, heritage and history can only come from individuals and entities with KURLESKI MOZOCI, IMHO!!!

[Risto the Great]

The arguments of some that the only Macedonian symbol should be the kurlesko sonce or nothing (because anything else is a step back due to greek pressure) is quite simply moronic.

It is not a step back.
It is a whimpering retreat from integrity, self-respect and sovereignty.

Macedonians need to rise as one and DEMAND what is rightfully theirs, THEN talk about other symbols of significance to Macedonia.

Volk, I hope the highlighted section above wasn't a sub-conscious slip up.

[indigen]

Do you know what 'hellenistic era' means at all? (your translation is incorect: it's not 'hellenic' but 'hellenistic' from хеленистичка)

You know I do and you are trying to cause friction here by trying open an old wound from about two years ago. But who knows if by now others have not changed their misguided views due to deeper analysis?

Secondly, I was not translating that example but I saw (and see) no difference in reality. You should re-evaluate the links you provide in future because that museum link is a NATIONAL DISGRACE.

Secondly, have you read what it says on there and do you have any concerns and suggestions for improvements? Take a look at the link index topics for History and Archaeology and see if things look a bit odd (or anti-Macedonian in nature)!

NB: Macedonian history begins with VI century and Macedonian Era/Period is listed as Pre-Roman! PREDAVNICI I IZRODI - NO IFS AND NO BUTS!

Do you make a difference between 'hellenic', 'hellenism' and 'hellenistic'?

IT IS ALL ANTI-MACEDONIAN (and pro-Grk, with an Western Imperialist cultural underpinning) ideological propaganda, i.e. Philhellenic in nature. You can search MTO for more info on the subject, I am sure I have posted some relevant info in a few topic threads in the past.

As
Also, the tomb supposedly of Philip II Macedonian is another controversy because there are many different interpretations of those artefacts and there are many mistakes confirmed already.

I was aware of Borza's claim about the time when you were in pre-school, if not earlier!

But you and your ILK are lacking the ideological perspective in order to appreciate the SIGNIFICANCE and IMPORTANCE of that find for the Macedonian Cause and what the Macedonian Sun politically symbolises for Macedonian national existence and survival, especially the repercussion from the way it was publicly surrendered to our enemies.

There is a whole thread started by TM about this!

Well, I can't imagine why "TM" would start such a thread? I can also imagine how many ideologically misplaced conclusions you and him would come up with. :-))

macedonianspark.com

That is a very LEFT WING inspired name, if I may note!

[indigen]

Be careful what logic you chose to follow, because someone could ask how significant the symbol of Kutlesh really was if he wasn't significantly preserved in our common tradition?

The IMPORTANT POINT, Brate, IS that YOU can not provide the MATERIAL EVIDENCE for your BOMBASTIC CLAIM about the supposedly wide and pervasive and CONTINUOUS use of the VRTUSKA and you are now trying to evade this direct challenge by DIVERSIONS - VETER I MAGLA reasoning.

The tombstone of Goce Delcev is full of this symbol:

Goce Delcev grave was constructed during Communist Era in SFRJ/SRM and most likely that symbol had (and probably still has) pan-Slavic ideological underpinnings!

This is so poor argument I'm even surprised you are trying to undermine an ancient symbol usage with this.

It is not a poor argument but I have also added (for more clarification) some info to the original post and you can now take that into consideration. Ideological correctness would be MOST CRITICALLY OBSERVED in ALL Communist societies, even more so in those early "revolutionary" stages, I have no doubts about that. The history of Macedonians in "YugoSLAVIA" (and even now it continues along the same line) started with the "arrival" of the "Slavs" (mass migration) in the VI century and Macedonian ancient heritage was a TABOO topic, as you can read in some of the posts I have posted here by respected Macedonian activists from Macedonia.

Those same Communists have voted for the 16 rayed sun on our flag.

Lets not DIVERT from the MAIN POINT that you have NO material EVIDENCE to backup your claim about continuous prominent use of the Vrtuska throughout the Macedonian history, especially the ancient one.

As for your claim that "Those same Communists have voted for the 16 rayed sun on our flag", I beg to differ as to why they voted for it and we can discuss it on some other relevant topic (but I also think that it has been covered before as well!).

[Volk]

It is not a step back.
It is a whimpering retreat from integrity, self-respect and sovereignty.

Macedonians need to rise as one and DEMAND what is rightfully theirs, THEN talk about other symbols of significance to Macedonia.

Volk, I hope the highlighted section above wasn't a sub-conscious slip up.

Exploring our history is not a step back from anything, it moves us forward armed with knowledge.

Its only a step back when we give up on the Kutlesko Sonce (yes it was a spelling mistake- R is next to T)