Archaeology of the Ancient World

[George S.]

To After HOurs The ancient Macedonians would not have been greeks but philhellenes that is they liked greek culture & speaking greek does not make them greek.When the Greeks came 3000 to 4000 years ago the Macedonians were allready there.Don't forget a key point overlooked is thatAll the greek city states participated in the Trojan War.The Macedonians were not a greek city state & was specifically excluded for not being Greek.The greek propaganda has been twisting & turning working on overdrive trying hard to say there are no macedonians & then recently there are but they are greek.Oh yes the Macedonians from Rm they are just slavs.
After hours wake up to yourselves & stop beleiving your own Crap.The slavs went to Greece,Turkey,Bulgaria,Albania & Macedonia.They did no more & no less to label Macedonia as Slavic & ignore the others is just lying to yourselves.
So what did happen in the 6 th century when the slavs came the macedonian people didn't dissapear,The slavs were an uncivilised & illiterate people & adopted the macedonian language in other words they became Macedonized.Stop your crap & bullshit & wake up to yourselves as you are peddling just propaganda.The Macedonians are not slavs the macedonians are Macedonians.The treaty of Bucharest is over give back what you took from the Macedonian people & make full restitution.

[afterhours]

just to add to the lingua franca debate, this is from the cambridge ancient history book section about Macedonia written by hammond

Can you provide the title of the book and volume? Thank you in advance!

[George S.]

they spoke greek to do with trade>it's like speaking english today it does not make one english.But the greeks say if you speak Greek you are Greek as you talk & act like a Greek come on thats crap & you know it.Also to let you in a little secret you don't know The greeks have spent countless of millions of $ to deny & omit undeniable facts about the Macedonians,especially Paying $$$$$$$ bucks to professor Hammond to get him to say what they want them to say.Of coruse you don't beleive me the Macedonian people were a distinctive race of people to say that they are not is an outright lie.

[George S.]

Just to let you know the macedonians were not a tribe they were a kingdom unlike the greek city states constantly warring with each other.To let you know what you have glossed over the Macedonians were a barbarian people ie a non greek people & they spoke a language that is different to greek completely unitelligible to the greeks,We know today there are thousands of ancient macedonian words.Did you know the word for history is not a greek word it is macedonian.The word cosmos is a macedonian word.
cos (winding) mos(bridge).Also the illiad is written in the macedonian language we can understand in todays macedonian.So the facts speak for themselves afterhours a good many people greek & macedonian know what is going on.Your government was ready to throw in the towel why because a good many 124 countries have allready recognized macedonia under it's constitutional name.In 1912 during the balkan wars greece took illegally 51 % of macedonia.It had never occupied that land before.It just said that it had liberated it.But big butIt called it the occupied territories untill 1988 when it discovered the glory of macedonia in vergina.Then it decided to call it northern greece & then changed it to Macedonia that is as a province.A province & a republic are a different thing.Macedonia has resgistered their name since 1944 when it became The republic of Macedonia.It is registered all over the world in institutions etc.No wonder your government is in overdrive trying to lie that they are macedonians when they are not.

[George S.]

Why the Macedonians are not "Slavs"?



Macedonia's former president Kiro Gligorov in the Toronto Star on March 15, 1992 said: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."



In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, Macedonia's Ambassador to Canada said: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian" and that "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."



As unbelievable as it may seem, these Macedonian politicians are actually wrong on this issue. Here are the major reasons why today's Macedonians are not "Slavs" or "Slav Macedonians" but direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians:



1. First of all, Gligorov and Veselinov are not historians, but politicians. History should not be written by politicians but should be left to the historians.



2. The Macedonian historians do not support the claim that today's Macedonians are "Slavs" who came in the 6th century. The latest book "THE DESCENDANTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF MACEDON - The arguments and evidence that today's Macedonians are descendants of the ancient Macedonians", puts an end to the "Slav" claim.



3. This "Slav" claim was an old communistic propaganda influenced by Russia and Yugoslavia during the period while Macedonia was part of communist Yugoslavia (1945-1991) and both Gligorov and Veselinov were tough this line of the official then history, dictated by Slav Russia and Serbia (Yugoslavia). As stated this "political history" is outdated and is ongoing replacement.



4. The roots of the Macedonians are in ancient Macedonia in Europe since 8th century BC. This is the reason why they call themselves Macedonians and not "Slavs" ever since that 8th century BC, including today.



5. Historical evidence (avoided by Gligorov and Veselinov of the communist school) shows that the Macedonians have called themselves "Macedonians" in every century since Alexander, both before and after the coming of the Slavs in Macedonia in the 6th century. It is the Slavs that assimilated into the Macedonians, not wise-versa, and the Macedonians continued to call themselves what they are - Macedonians.



6. And most convincing of all the fact that the genetic research had proven that the Macedonians are not Slavs but have a direct descent from the ancient Macedonians.



7. The Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, and Macedonian minorities in Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania, continue to proudly call themselves "Macedonians" and consider the "Slav" label an insult and racial slur. The western press was literary bombarded by mails, faxes, and emails from outraged Macedonians who despised being called "Slavs" during the Albanian aggression on Macedonia.



8. Much greater detail on the direct descent of today's Macedonians from the ancient Macedonians is found in "THE DESCENDANTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF MACEDON - The arguments and evidence that today's Macedonians are descendants of the ancient Macedonians"




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[afterhours]

To After HOurs The ancient Macedonians would not have been greeks but philhellenes that is they liked greek culture & speaking greek does not make them greek.

The topic of this thread relates to the top museums in the world and how these museums view the ancient Maks. According to these museums, the ancient Maks were a bit more than "philhelenes".

When the Greeks came 3000 to 4000 years ago the Macedonians were allready there.

Really? That's news to me!

Don't forget a key point overlooked is thatAll the greek city states participated in the Trojan War.The Macedonians were not a greek city state & was specifically excluded for not being Greek.

????

The greek propaganda has been twisting & turning working on overdrive trying hard to say there are no macedonians & then recently there are but they are greek.Oh yes the Macedonians from Rm they are just slavs.
After hours wake up to yourselves & stop beleiving your own Crap.The slavs went to Greece,Turkey,Bulgaria,Albania & Macedonia.They did no more & no less to label Macedonia as Slavic & ignore the others is just lying to yourselves.
So what did happen in the 6 th century when the slavs came the macedonian people didn't dissapear,The slavs were an uncivilised & illiterate people & adopted the macedonian language in other words they became Macedonized.

May I remind you that even revisionist historians clearly state that the ancient Maks had become completely Hellenized by Alexander's time. By the 6th century, the Macedonians had already become a part of the Hellenic world.

Stop your crap & bullshit & wake up to yourselves as you are peddling just propaganda.The Macedonians are not slavs the macedonians are Macedonians.The treaty of Bucharest is over give back what you took from the Macedonian people & make full restitution.

And what exactly does the Treaty of Bucharest have to do with the Louvre and the Hermitage?

[afterhours]

they spoke greek to do with trade>it's like speaking english today it does not make one english.

Apparently (according to the museums that I've cited), the ancient Maks used the Greek language prior to it becoming a lingua franca

But the greeks say if you speak Greek you are Greek as you talk & act like a Greek come on thats crap & you know it.Also to let you in a little secret you don't know The greeks have spent countless of millions of $ to deny & omit undeniable facts about the Macedonians,especially Paying $$$$$$$ bucks to professor Hammond to get him to say what they want them to say.

More conspiracy theories? Ok, ya got us! We rule the world! Happy now?!

Of coruse you don't beleive me the Macedonian people were a distinctive race of people to say that they are not is an outright lie.

I never said otherwise! We are discussing how the museums tha I've cited view the ancient Maks....that is the topic of this thread, archaeology of the ancient world!

[afterhours]

Just to let you know the macedonians were not a tribe they were a kingdom unlike the greek city states constantly warring with each other.To let you know what you have glossed over the Macedonians were a barbarian people ie a non greek people & they spoke a language that is different to greek completely unitelligible to the greeks,We know today there are thousands of ancient macedonian words.

Where'd you find these words? Off the Rosetta Stone perhaps?

Did you know the word for history is not a greek word it is macedonian.The word cosmos is a macedonian word.
cos (winding) mos(bridge).Also the illiad is written in the macedonian language we can understand in todays macedonian.

Fascinating! Perhaps you should send a memo to the Louvre and the Hermitage....I think they may have missed that!

So the facts speak for themselves afterhours a good many people greek & macedonian know what is going on.Your government was ready to throw in the towel why because a good many 124 countries have allready recognized macedonia under it's constitutional name.In 1912 during the balkan wars greece took illegally 51 % of macedonia.It had never occupied that land before.It just said that it had liberated it.But big butIt called it the occupied territories untill 1988 when it discovered the glory of macedonia in vergina.Then it decided to call it northern greece & then changed it to Macedonia that is as a province.A province & a republic are a different thing.Macedonia has resgistered their name since 1944 when it became The republic of Macedonia.It is registered all over the world in institutions etc.No wonder your government is in overdrive trying to lie that they are macedonians when they are not.

I'd be more than happy to discuss these matters, but maybe we should do so on another thread.

[afterhours]

The Getty,
Los Angeles

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=8128

Head of Alexander the Great

Identified by his mass of leonine hair, his young idealized face, and his deep-set, upturned eyes, Alexander the Great was the first Greek ruler to understand and exploit the propagandistic powers of portraiture. Ancient literary sources say that he let only one sculptor carve his portrait: Lysippos, who created the standard Alexander portrait type. In general such portraits incorporated characteristics that had been used earlier for the representation of gods and heroes. This practice was part of Alexander's adoption of the Near Eastern idea of honoring rulers as if they were gods.

This life-size head, said to have been found in Megara, was part of a multi-figured group, which probably served as a funerary monument for some courtier who wanted to associate himself with the ruler. The Getty Museum has over thirty fragments of this group, which might have depicted a sacrificial scene. The participants include Alexander, his companion Hephaistion, a goddess, Herakles, a flute player, and several other figures, as well as animals and birds.

The head was re-carved in antiquity. The left ear was added, the right sideburn shortened, and the lower eyelids recut.

[Bij]

Was the State Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg, Russia, also given faulty information from some "french dude"?

2nd century BC

http://hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_7_1_1b.html

The Greek world penetrated deep into Central Asia in the centuries after the invasion of Alexander the Great. The coins of the Greek kings of Bactria and north-western India illustrate the mingling of Greek and native cultures. This coin shows a Greek king wearing a local headdress on the obverse and the Greek god Poseidon, representing the Indian trident-bearing god Siva, on the reverse.

I don't think anyone was denying Alexander spread hellenistic culture around. This is exactly what that quote you posted is saying. What it fails to mention is that he switched to the Persian team as soon as it was appropriate for him (politically).

and again, 'Greek' didn't exist in the times of ATG, so applying the term retrospectively is historically inaccurate.

[Bij]

I don't know, maybe a cultural continuation perhaps, ie, linguistics (with all dialects of the Greek language being considered), the church (the Greek Orthodox church is more pagan than any other christian sect bar none!), peotry, music, art, etc. And that influence has been felt by everyone in the neighborhood (at least in my humble opinion).



No nation can claim an "unbroken cultural continuation", but when you have Greeks living in the Balkans and surrounding regions for such a long period of time, I wouldn't call that coincidence. Throw your Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians in the mix, and the Greek element still is predominant.

But back to the topic of this thread TrueMacedonian, I would love to hear your thoughts as to why the Louvre, the British Museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the State Hermitage Museum, and so many other world renowned museums claim the things that they claim....can you make any sense of it?

laughable and typical greek mentality right here. allloo ima nekoj doma???


why dont you make another 35 posts that have no bearing on anything. You have changed the definition of what 'archaeology' is in this thread so many times. first it was the ancient world only, now, because it is appropriate to you, it is only a choice few museums and what they have to say about ATG.

make up your fucking mind already.

what you are forgetting to add to this thread in regards in museum is there is a Hellenic Ministry of Culture that goes around providing museums with this stuff for the most part and tells them what it is. not true for every museum but the vast majority of them 'borrow' their finds from elsewhere.

[Sovius]

Various peoples were Hellenized.

Wait a minute! Are you saying that a bunch of brainwashed Slavs and Albanians forced the ancient Macedonians to drink castor oil for speaking in the Macedonian language in public after the annexation of Aegean Macedonia? This doesn't make any sense to me, but, as you've failed to adequately define the terms that you're using, I am only left with my own definition of what Hellenized means. Perhaps, you'd like to start explaining what some of these terms mean so that this thread can move beyond simplistic avoidance tactics. What are you in still in grade school? If you want an opinion on these museums whose governments have a financial stake in the continued mistreatment of the ancient Macedonians as being descendents of the modern populations that presently inhabit the Republic of Hellas, then you should first show some consideration and adequately answer some of these previous questions so that everyone has a common point of reference to engage in a meaningful multilogue.

[George S.]

Sovius i fully agree with you there needs to be a common starting point i think that after hours needs to admit certain things.All i'm seeing is alexander the great was( greek )simply because it was found in the northern greece.He needs to wxplain what helenized means ie if people talk greek they become greek regardless of origins or what.Or is it helenisation out to destroy the other persons identity??.Also Greece says that there are no minorities in greece well there are & denying it will not help the issue.So after hours you need a dose of castor oil to stimulate your brain cells to start admitting to the real interst in the museums.Presumably to peddle some more propaganda.May i remind AFter Hours that the name of this thread is Archaelology of the Ancient world.Yes it's pertinent to discuss how greece is manipulating archaelogical evidence to suit its agenda.So After Hours if you talk about Museums i do hope it's on archaelogy of the ancient world.

[afterhours]

laughable and typical greek mentality right here. allloo ima nekoj doma???

Why laughable? And what exactly is a typical Greek mentality?

why dont you make another 35 posts that have no bearing on anything. You have changed the definition of what 'archaeology' is in this thread so many times. first it was the ancient world only, now, because it is appropriate to you, it is only a choice few museums and what they have to say about ATG.

make up your fucking mind already.

How do posts of links to the most highly respected museums in the world, museums that showcase archaeological artifacts, posted on a thread entitled "Archaeology of the Ancient World" have no bearing on anything? Nice logic!

I've already made up mind! Maybe you should infrom the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Louvre, the British Museum, the Getty, and the Hermitage to "make up their fucking minds"!

what you are forgetting to add to this thread in regards in museum is there is a Hellenic Ministry of Culture that goes around providing museums with this stuff for the most part and tells them what it is. not true for every museum but the vast majority of them 'borrow' their finds from elsewhere.

What are you insinuating?

[afterhours]

I don't think anyone was denying Alexander spread hellenistic culture around. This is exactly what that quote you posted is saying.

The State Hermitage Museum is quite clear! According to the Hermitage, Alexander's succesors were "Greek kings". CAn't get anymore black and white than that!

What it fails to mention is that he switched to the Persian team as soon as it was appropriate for him (politically).

Please elaborate!

and again, 'Greek' didn't exist in the times of ATG, so applying the term retrospectively is historically inaccurate.

The terms "Greek" (Graikos) and Ellinas (Hellene) most certainly existed in Alexander's era!