Archaeology of the Ancient World

[Sovius]

What Macedonian ethnocide are you referring to?

What a diseased and perverse thing to say. You have no honor and you have no balls. Do the right thing and walk away.

[Risto the Great]

Afterhours, why don't you have a go at defining "ethnocide" for me.
Once you do it, I will give you the example of that in occupied Macedonia.

[Bij]

And where does this Angelina Markus hail from? What are her credentials? Do her "theories" make any sort of impact on international academia? Do they take precedence over such fine institutions as the Louvre, the Hermitage, the British Museum, The Getty, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art?



You got me man! How could I have been so stupid?! Here I thought that the world's museums were a stepping stone towards historical truths and revelations, when in reality, they have been financed and persuaded by the world's super power Greece! Angelina Markus is not toeing the party line...on the contrary, she strives to discredit the Louvre and all other similar institutions with her brand of historical reality!

Just out of curiousity, what do you think Angelina Markus would have to say about the following bit of archaeological information provided by the Getty?

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=248738

Green Bowl with Knobs and Incised Floral Pattern

The base of this turquoise vessel showcases a petal-shaped pattern punctuated by tear-shaped knobs. With its slightly flaring rim, the vessel probably served as a drinking bowl; the prominent knobs would have provided the drinker with something to grasp when tipping the bowl to take a sip of wine. Once the drink was consumed, the bowl rested upside down on its rim.

This vessel shape developed in the Achaemenid Empire in ancient Persia in the fifth century B.C. When the Greeks, led by Alexander the Great, expanded into Persia in the fourth century B.C., Greek artisans began producing this type of bowl in glass, clay, and silver. This bowl was cast in a mold; a glassworker skilled with a cutting wheel then added the base pattern and the ridges that encircle the rim.

Glass during this period was considered a luxury object and a bowl like this would have been found only among the highest levels of society. It could have remained in a single family for generations as an heirloom. Many of these pieces survive today because they were placed in tombs as grave gifts for the deceased.

and here is that typical greek mentality you were asking about earlier. thanks for the example.

I think Angelina Markus would think exactly what was quoted.

[afterhours]

I thought i was clear enough. Did any one else have dificulty reading my questions and statements?

Bill77 "Its you and your natzi Greece ideology "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”.

After Hours "What "lie" are you referring to?"

Answer- simple answer Macedonia was greek.

So according to you, the Louvre, the British Museum, the Hermitage, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the Getty are lying scum! Tell me more man! Are you seriously trying to tell me that I should disregard the general concensus of these fine institutions and adopt the beliefs of time travelling "archaeologists" such as Pasko Kuzman?

Bill77 "I want to ask you on your thoughts re: The Nation And Its Ruins by Yannis Hamilakis."

After Hours " What are your specific questions in regards to the link that you provided? I'm not a mind reader"

a simple i have not read the book, or i don't know or honest opinion whould have done.

No prob! Haven't read the book. That being said, what point were you trying to make?

Bill77 "so would you want to here other statements by Demosthenes? or only the bits that suits Greece?" source "Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31."

I take it that you've never heard of a little something called character assassination!

After Hours "can you provide other sources in the future?"

Come on Mr History Major, do your own search.

Why didn't you say so in the first place? My appologies for not mgiving credibility to nationalist websites! What was I thinking?!

Bill77 "lets all put our shovels down and believe that what Greece have claimed and purified to be Gospel."

After Hours "Who said anything about Greece? Last time I checked, the Louvre was in France, ........"

where did i sugest Louvre is in Greece.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you that stated that Greece's version of history should be taken as gospel truth? I haven't even brought Greece into this conversation. By making the claim that you made, you insinuate that the institutions that I have cited are somehow influenced by Greece. Am I misinterpreting something here?

Bill77 "And you tell me what Philhelenes and Barbarian means"

After Hours "Be more specific please."

SIMPLE, WHAT DID THE TERMS PHILELENES AND BARBARIAN MEAN IN THE ANCIENT TIMES?

Depending on how both terms were used, they both had more than one meaning.

[afterhours]

and here is that typical greek mentality you were asking about earlier. thanks for the example.

I think Angelina Markus would think exactly what was quoted.

Are you telling me that the Getty is an example of this undefined "typical Greek mentality"?

Sorry man, but Angelina Markus (who???) is a biased individual whose opinions on history are completely one sided and obviously politically motivated! If "that typical Greek mentality" involves me taking the Louvre's credentials over hers, then yeah man, you just got a glimpse of that "typical greek mentality"!


Btw, what are your thoughts on the Getty Museum's links that I rovided? Do you need to consult Angelina Markus for your rebuttal?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Afterhours, I really cannot see any reason for you to respond with 7 posts to each 1 of mine, other than trying to gain a higher post count on this forum. Can you explain to me why you do this, because your three-liners can all be consolidated into one post to make it easier to address. At the moment, I view this as suspect spamming, but I will allow you to correct this behaviour going forward, should you be willing. Filling up a page with 7 out 10 posts (most of which consist of only a few words) is a waste of space as far as I am concernced, and is a contributing factor to this thread blowing up to 14 pages within a matter of days.

Athenian colonists. I'm not saying it, but the sources I've posted in this thread clearly do! Don't just take it up with me!

I advise you to stop playing words, other than going back 6 pages to look for your rapid three-liners, your cyclic attitude is becoming annoying. Athenian colonists are HELLENIC colonists. How many other Hellenes colonised lands of fellow Hellenes, in the manner that Hellenes from Athens colonised Macedonia? Failure to answer this question after this last repeat attempt will indicate to me that you are unable to.

can you at least address what the Louvre, the British Museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the State Hermitage Museum thought of them?

What exactly do you want me to address? I'm sorry, in your abundance of posts on this thread I am afraid it is lost in the sea of nothingness. Refer me to exactly what statement they have made? Are they saying that there are people in Macedonia who could speak and write Hellenic (If so, you win no medals), are they calling the original inhabitants of Macedonia as Hellenes, or are they linking these people to modern ethnic Hellenes of the 19th century and post-type?

So who was Hellenized as early as, or prior to, the 8th century BC? I’ll give you a hint, nobody. The oracle at Dodona is pre-Hellenic and dates much earlier than any record of Hellenes.

Probably, but we don't know for sure!

No, not probaby, definetly. There is not a shred of evidence to prove otherwise, especially not in the manner that you are suggesting.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/pyrrhus.html

I can point you to a plethora of info!

Fantastic. I don't need a plethora of information, you can save that for your Albanian friends who seemed convinced that the Molossians are an ancestor tribe of theirs and that Pyrrhus is their ancestral king. Here is something that caught my interest in the link you posted:

Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself.

Tharrhypas reigned beteen 430 - 390 BC - That is the 5th century BC. Before this it appears that Hellenic learning and manners was non-existent, and all prior is a myth. Even the mythical kings became 'barbarous', and the language of the country was as different to Hellenic as is Aspetus to Achilles. The above says to me that the people of Epirus (including Molossians or those who came to be known as such) are not Hellenic by origin and receive actual Hellenic influence only from the 5th century BC onwards, like Macedonia and the other surrounding non-Hellenic regions.

I think you know very well what I'm trying to say here, and that is that the Greek language became a lingua franca after the exploits of Alexander.

That is not specific enough, because if that is all you have to say then in general terms it is false. Thrace, Illyria, Macedonia, Italy, Asia, etc received Hellenic influence via colonists much earlier that Alexander or even the rise of Macedon as a power. Are you denying this?

Ok, then by all means, give this "Arvanitovlahoslavotorko" the low down!

Have I ever referred to you as such in the past, present, in this forum or any other? If not, then why have you written such a description for yourself? Is this what you want me to call you?

But they didn't use the Greek language, and according to the museums that I've highlighted thus far, the ancient Maks did.

Hang on a second, I have shown you genuine examples of how they DID use the Hellenic language (Geta). Or are the items in your selected museums the only one's that count for you?

Clearly some of what I wrote earlier is too difficult to comprehend and keep up with (for you), your arguments going forward do not consider what has been contested, and henceforth lose their significance each time. To be quite honest, I thought you were a little better than that, but now you are slowly beginning to exhibit the same mannerisms that led to your eventual expulsion by TM at maknews. Start producing the goods mate, or stop wasting our time, it's that simple.

[afterhours]

What a diseased and perverse thing to say. You have no honor and you have no balls. Do the right thing and walk away.

I didn't realize that a Macedonian ethocide existed in antiquity. If a Macedonian ethnocide transpired in antiquity, then please provide the proper sources.

[Bij]

Are you telling me that the Getty is an example of this undefined "typical Greek mentality"?

Sorry man, but Angelina Markus (who???) is a biased individual whose opinions on history are completely one sided and obviously politically motivated! If "that typical Greek mentality" involves me taking the Louvre's credentials over hers, then yeah man, you just got a glimpse of that "typical greek mentality"!


Btw, what are your thoughts on the Getty Museum's links that I rovided? Do you need to consult Angelina Markus for your rebuttal?

I think the getty museum needs to reevaluate its staffing choices

Well hey if you were going to post politically motivated sources... why can't I? Yes, i'm calling the Met, Getty Museum, Louvre, etc politically motivated. They all have a stake in Greek history.

I seriously think you just keep coming back here because you have a crush on me and think I might eventually post a picture of my tits, because I know for sure you have provided nothing exciting or interesting here. Really I can't blame you, I'd rather be picking up Macedonians than a Greek chick with a beard and hellenic hip disorder.

Now that I have you all figured out, do you mind getting a move on? You're wasting internet space that, frankly, is precious.

[afterhours]

Afterhours, why don't you have a go at defining "ethnocide" for me.
Once you do it, I will give you the example of that in occupied Macedonia.

Risto, I thought that we were talking about the archaelogy of the ancient wold in this specific thread entitled "Archaeology of the Ancient World". My strengths lie in history (specifically ancient history), and art. These topics are of great interest to me, and thus far I have yet to receive any sort of rebuttal in regards to the topic of this thread. If you would like to discuss modern Balkan history, let me know so I can drop this acrchaeology bussiness.

[Bij]

Risto, I thought that we were talking about the archaelogy of the ancient wold in this specific thread entitled "Archaeology of the Ancient World". My strengths lie in history (specifically ancient history), and art. These topics are of great interest to me, and thus far I have yet to receive any sort of rebuttal in regards to the topic of this thread. If you would like to discuss modern Balkan history, let me know so I can drop this acrchaeology bussiness.

mate i thought modern history was your strength ???

[Sovius]

I didn't realize that a Macedonian ethocide existed in antiquity. If a Macedonian ethnocide transpired in antiquity, then please provide the proper sources.

Walk away.

[Risto the Great]

I didn't realize that a Macedonian ethocide existed in antiquity. If a Macedonian ethnocide transpired in antiquity, then please provide the proper sources.

It was quite the reverse in antiquity in my opinion.
But I note you do not care to define the term. Is this the wishy washy kind of approach we are to expect from you here? It is a little boring.

[Bill77]

Afterhours Quote: "Do they take precedence over such fine institutions as the Louvre, the Hermitage, the British Museum, The Getty, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art?"

Here we go again. can you Get over mentioning the louvre, the hermitage etc etc? Do you understand what anyone is saying? These relics can be situated in a building on mars for all i care. Does not make a diferance were they are. Its the Human element such as historians and archaeologists that try to tell the story. By mentioning all these well known museums (well known for more reasons then one), in your mind you think there is more wheight to your argument. They are just Building made of Bricks and Mortar. The issue is, That History has not been told corectly and there is plenty of evidence that there is an alternative. You seem to think that its sighned sealed delivered and now you and your country are warried that you no longer Have The only say to it. So you can move these relics to my back yard, and the story would still be the same. Inacurate just less viewed.

Also, SOM is corect, stop quoting every single 1 word at a time. especialy when your replies are sarcastic, or playing dumb, especialy stop with this louvre shit. What you are doing is by replying with long posts, you want to give an impresion that you have an answer to everything Therefor have the upper hand and the bigger the reply somehow in your Brain you have power. You are a fool if you think so. Its not the size of the post (with repetitive crap) its what is said.

And another thing, what makes you think that you Modern Greeks with Albanian ancestors have anything to do with Ancient greeks.

Finaly, your reply to my Question "WHAT DID THE TERMS PHILELENES AND BARBARIAN MEAN IN THE ANCIENT TIMES?"

your reply "Depending on how both terms were used, they both had more than one meaning."

This is for another thread, But you are not giving me Greek writer Daskalakis (Hellenism, 234) Pathetic Theories that it was a rhetorical slant, are you? Because you have no Hope with that argument.

[Napoleon]

afterhours wrote:

And when exactly did Koine become a lingua franca?
So when was the Hellenic language used as a lingua franca? And by whom?

The ancient Greek Koine became the lingua franca of the entire eastern Mediterranean approximately 350 years before Alexander the Great was even born. This was a direct result of the ancient Greek colonisation movement which started around 700bc. See the map below;



This fact alone proves that the 19th century western European neo-hellenist's theory that Alexander supposedly "spread Hellenism" was an intentional lie as they clearly knew that the ancient Greek colonial movement proceeded him by several hundred years. How can you supposedly "spread" something in areas were it already existed.

Philip II and his son Alexander chose the ancient Greek Koine as the administrative language of their multi-racial empire as it was already the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean, the pre-existing common language of diplomacy and trade. I know you are not going to believe this from me, so I'll let a genuine ancient Macedonian restate it for you in the quote below;

"One charge made against me is that I disdain to communicate in my native language, that I have no respect for Macedonian customs (which means I have designs on an empire I despise). That native language of ours has long been rendered obsolete through our dealings with other nations, and conquerors and conquered alike must learn a foreign tongue."
Quintus Curtius Rufus., The History of Alexander, Book Six, 10.23.

Finally, instead of coming here and trying convince us that the ancient Macedonians were "Greek", why don't you convince us how you yourself or the entire multi-racial modern 'Greek' population are related to the ancient Hellenes???

[afterhours]

Afterhours, I really cannot see any reason for you to respond with 7 posts to each 1 of mine, other than trying to gain a higher post count on this forum.

You got me! That was exactly my intention when I joined this forum!

You're good!

Can you explain to me why you do this, because your three-liners can all be consolidated into one post to make it easier to address.

Should I not respond then when other posters are addressing my posts?
How exactly would you like me to conduct myself in the future?

At the moment, I view this as suspect spamming, but I will allow you to correct this behaviour going forward, should you be willing.

Spamming? If you say so! Remind me again what the title of this thread is again?! Is my posting links to the various museums that I've posted, links that showcase archaeology of the ancient world, tantamount to spamming? Thanks for the warning then I guess.

Filling up a page with 7 out 10 posts (most of which consist of only a few words) is a waste of space as far as I am concernced, and is a contributing factor to this thread blowing up to 14 pages within a matter of days.

Would you prefer if I didn't respond to all the posters here that respond to my posts?

I advise you to stop playing words, other than going back 6 pages to look for your rapid three-liners, your cyclic attitude is becoming annoying. Athenian colonists are HELLENIC colonists. How many other Hellenes colonised lands of fellow Hellenes, in the manner that Hellenes from Athens colonised Macedonia? Failure to answer this question after this last repeat attempt will indicate to me that you are unable to.

Southern Greek colonies were also created in Epirus where other Greeks lived.

What exactly do you want me to address? I'm sorry, in your abundance of posts on this thread I am afraid it is lost in the sea of nothingness.

Already forgot....no biggie!

Refer me to exactly what statement they have made? Are they saying that there are people in Macedonia who could speak and write Hellenic (If so, you win no medals), are they calling the original inhabitants of Macedonia as Hellenes, or are they linking these people to modern ethnic Hellenes of the 19th century and post-type?

All the museums that I've cited thus far link the inhabitants of Macedonia to their Hellenic neighbors to the south.

No, not probaby, definetly. There is not a shred of evidence to prove otherwise, especially not in the manner that you are suggesting.

So material evidence and archaeology of the ancient world are not enough shreds to prove otherwise?

I'm not suggesting anything...the museums that I've posted are doing all the suggesting.

Fantastic. I don't need a plethora of information, you can save that for your Albanian friends who seemed convinced that the Molossians are an ancestor tribe of theirs and that Pyrrhus is their ancestral king. Here is something that caught my interest in the link you posted:

Tharrhypas reigned beteen 430 - 390 BC - That is the 5th century BC. Before this it appears that Hellenic learning and manners was non-existent, and all prior is a myth. Even the mythical kings became 'barbarous', and the language of the country was as different to Hellenic as is Aspetus to Achilles. The above says to me that the people of Epirus (including Molossians or those who came to be known as such) are not Hellenic by origin and receive actual Hellenic influence only from the 5th century BC onwards, like Macedonia and the other surrounding non-Hellenic regions.

Plutarch's Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans

http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/plutarch/index.htm

The general history of Polybius, Volume 3 By Polybius

http://books.google.com/books?id=A2QLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=And+join+them+in+making+war+against+the+epirots++polybius&source=bl&ots=Vz2Fsm7zWC&sig=NJjgUAJNaFuXpGol0Duv_MsSFbM&hl=en&ei=wuH2SvCuPI7T8AbwmcnzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

"And join them in making war against the Epirots, the Achaeans, the Acarnanians, the Boeotians, the Thessalians; in a word, against almost every people of Greece"

Procopius, Volume 3 By Henry Bronson Dewing

http://books.google.com/books?id=ddZfAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=procopius+by+procopius#v=onepage&q=&f=false

"But north of the gulf, the first inhabitants are Greeks, called Epirotes, as far as the city Epidamnus, which is situated by the sea."

Guide to Greece: Central Greece By Pausānias

http://books.google.com/books?id=MosYf_xtpHcC&pg=PP1&dq=pausanias+peter+levi#v=onepage&q=pausanias%20peter%20levi&f=false

"but we know no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome"

That is not specific enough, because if that is all you have to say then in general terms it is false. Thrace, Illyria, Macedonia, Italy, Asia, etc received Hellenic influence via colonists much earlier that Alexander or even the rise of Macedon as a power. Are you denying this?

No I'm not.

Have I ever referred to you as such in the past, present, in this forum or any other? If not, then why have you written such a description for yourself? Is this what you want me to call you?

No you have not. Sorry man! I just got used to hearing it over at Maknews. My appologies!

Hang on a second, I have shown you genuine examples of how they DID use the Hellenic language (Geta). Or are the items in your selected museums the only one's that count for you?

Not at all, but that's not exactly what these "selected" museums are saying.

Clearly some of what I wrote earlier is too difficult to comprehend and keep up with (for you),

How so? Can you be a little more specific? I'm a little slow, but I sure as hell like purdy pictures!

your arguments going forward do not consider what has been contested, and henceforth lose their significance each time. To be quite honest, I thought you were a little better than that, but now you are slowly beginning to exhibit the same mannerisms that led to your eventual expulsion by TM at maknews. Start producing the goods mate, or stop wasting our time, it's that simple.

I thought I was! In my humble opinion, I thought that the likes of The Hermitage and The Louvre WERE the goods, but then again, what do I know?!