Muslims in Balkan Should Promote Europe of Peace and Hope

[Risto the Great]

No, no. Philosopher offered his insight and I wanted to accommodate him to a degree.
Because he really made his point (he did it well I thought).
It isn't a subtle change at all.
They are all referring to the same God. No doubt about that.
You are merely saying they aren't because the different "Gods" were saying different things therefore they are not the same.
But you can read sometimes and I have explained that. Give it another go and try to be as sincere as Philosopher.

[Vangelovski]

To the participants on the forum, though most of you appear to have done your homework and most probably have already picked it up, RtG's argument seems to have evolved further, with a backflip:

God of the Old Testament is the same one for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. To suggest anything different is nothing more than ignorance.

Anyway, my thoughts are that even if Allah is Satan himself, that Muslims actually think it is the same God that everyone else is talking about. I am so right about this, it hurts. Whatever theology proves or disproves about the nature of Allah is another matter.

Philosopher offered his insight and I wanted to accommodate him to a degree.
Because he really made his point (he did it well I thought).
It isn't a subtle change at all.
They are all referring to the same God. No doubt about that.

The argument went from Allah and God are exactly the same and if you think differently you are ignorant to the Muslims think they are the same but they may not be to he wanted to accommodate Philosopher because he made a point all the way back to they are exactly the same, without a doubt.

All the while, no reference has been made to the Bible or the Qur'an. Sounds much like a political soundbite from Tony Abbott being extrapolated and then "de-extrapolated".

[Risto the Great]

Philosopher discussed the Jews (as opposed to you skirting around the issue) as follows:

Christians believe Jews worship the same God. I would disagree.

I agree mostly with this, but I think the Jews still have a special place in God's plan

Are you that mentally numb to agree "mostly"? He says it is a different God. You say the opposite but mostly agree. I thought it was black and white stuff here! Are you slipping or what?

Philosopher seems to say the Muslim God and the Jewish God are different ones from a theological and technical perspective.

You (barely/"mostly") say they are not the same God for the Muslims, but the same one for the Jews.

You never answered my question:

"You seem so reluctant to come out and say it. Are you scared the Jews will hunt you down or what? Spell it out so we can work through it logically. My understanding is the Jews didn't just miss the boat with Jesus, they refute such a concept of a holy trinity at all. Were the Jews so blind not to see clues of the trinity in the Torah? Why were they the chosen race if so blind? Why are there prophecies fulfilled (according to Fr Vangelovski) if they are so blind?"

The I asked (with no desire to prove anything other than gain a more detailed insight into Judaism):

On what basis do you believe it is God's son (as opposed to a Messiah) that is yet to arrive for the Jews? Wouldn't this suggest the embracing of the triune or at least dual nature of God? Which would be incorrect for the Jews.

I suspect you do not care to admit the Jews were wrong because it compromises a very comprehensive old book in your mind. So you have to afford them a special place in your logic.

And you want to attack me, Satan's spawn, because I bother to have a go discussing these issues. Nice!

Smarter theologians than you have stated the Jews do not accept the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. But you have the Jews in your back pocket because you know more about it.

IF THE JEWS DO NOT ACCEPT THE TRINITY, WHY ON EARTH (LITERALLY) WILL THEY BE AFFORDED (BY GOD) ANYTHING BENEFICIAL OVER THE SINNING CHRISTIANS ?

You won't answer this usefully because you are relying on the vibe of it around this part.

You've participated in so many threads where we have gone through all of these questions time and again.

Of course you're lying. I have never discussed Muslims and Jews in contrast to Christianity before. You lie often like this. It suits you because you can say things like "I have explained this before". You haven't. I hope you can stop lying about it. Try to be more Christian in your outlook. I swear even some Chinese lie less than you.

Oh, the Muslims believe they are talking about the same God. They point to Abraham and even Jesus in their own way. You can't cope with it, I know. I am 100% sure they are thinking about the same God. I am equally sure they see him very differently to Jews and Christians.

I prefer you say you don't know than to skirt around the issues like you have been for so long.

I am ready to listen .... but you have to meet me half way by actually saying something.

[George S.]

I dont know if rtg you know what transpired when moses went up ara rat?
God said I am god and there is no other.
Do not make any graven images of god.That sums all man created religlons.
You can cry .pleaf all hou want nothing will change it.false religions abound.But there is only one god.

[Risto the Great]

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1 John 4:20 (1st letten of John)

This is good. I think it sorts our the more nasty Christians. Trust the good book to help us!

[Big Bad Sven]

Tins the Old Testament.
2. Judaism is a racial religion.
3

I hate it when Jews say that being Jewish is a race, not a religion.

How can you say that? There are many black Jews serving in the Israeli army. They are many black people in africa who are Jew. The most famous is the actor Yaphet Kotto.

Even the 'white' jews are a different race. You have the jews with blonde hair and blue eyes (Ian Ziering, Alicia Silverstone etc) who look more white/european and then you have your stereo typical jews that are Semitic in race. Clearly they are not from the same race even though they are Caucasian.

There are even people in China who are jewish.

Ironically the asian and black jews are treated like subhumans in Israel by their fellow jewish brothers lol

[George S.]

Only the fool have said there is no god
In his heart.

[Vangelovski]

RtG,

You were very liberal with quoting both mine and Philosopher's statements in relation to the Jews. In other words, you selected one sentence that you disingenuously thought would support your argument. Philosopher made some very specific statements to which I responded that I mostly agreed, but also I clarified what my differences were. You totally missed both our points. I even pointed a relevant part of the Bible - not for Philosopher's sake (because he already knows that), but for yours. Its obvious that you made no attempt to look it up.

Further, don't pretend that you know what Judaism believes and teaches. Its obvious to everyone but you that you have no idea. The fact that you think the Messiah and God the Son are two different things demonstrates your complete lack of understanding and betray's your latest claim that you have indeed read the Bible. The Hebrews of the Old Testament understand the Trinity very well. The very first statement in relation to it is right up front in Genesis 1:1 (but you would have to read the original Hebrew version to see why, the English translation just doesn't do it justice).

Your problem is that you are not interested in this discussion at all. Your only motive here is to attack and abuse those trying to help you, as I was for many years when you decided to finally turn against me and viciously strike out. So be it.

This is why I now have to take the advice that Jesus gave:

"Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you." Matthew 7:6

[Philosopher]

I hate it when Jews say that being Jewish is a race, not a religion.

Is this directed to me or Jews? Not sure.

How can you say that?

I'm not Jewish, but I did say Judaism is a racial religion. The subject here is Judaism; not the Jewish people.

There are many black Jews serving in the Israeli army. They are many black people in africa who are Jew. The most famous is the actor Yaphet Kotto.

So-called “black Jews” may not be Jewish at all. It they are related to Jews, it is very distantly.

The Jews of Ethiopia are so distantly related to other Jews that their community must have been founded by only a few itinerants who converted local people to Judaism and then married within the local population. It also suggests the founding was more than 2,000 years ago.
That antiquity helps explain why Ethiopian Jews airlifted to Israel during "Operation Moses" in 1984 had no idea about the holiday of Hanukkah, which commemorates events of the second century BC--long after their ancestors had left Israel.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/06/us-science-genetics-jews-idINBRE8751EI20120806

Even the 'white' jews are a different race. You have the jews with blonde hair and blue eyes (Ian Ziering, Alicia Silverstone etc) who look more white/european and then you have your stereo typical jews that are Semitic in race. Clearly they are not from the same race even though they are Caucasian.

All Jews are related. All Jews are related. And all Jews are related.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/06/us-science-genetics-jews-idINBRE8751EI20120806

http://www.livescience.com/47755-european-jews-are-30th-cousins.html

There are many genetic studies which confirm this.

Anyway, to explain what I mean by “racial religion”.

Judaism is a religion based on the idea that God chose the Hebrews or Israel to be his chosen people. That being of the physical seed of Abraham makes them special. And anyone who reads the Old Testament, much worse still the Talmud, knows that Jews have a very low opinion of gentiles (non-Jews) and see them as inferior. The whole religion of Judaism is based on the physical pedigree of Jews, and the belief that God has exalted this people above all else.

When Jews interpret the Old Testament, they do so from a racial perspective, not a spirtual.

By contrast, Christianity is a spiritual religion based on a spiritual chosen people: those who accept Jesus as the Christ. The New Testament states that in Jesus there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither male nor female neither bond nor free.

When Christians interpret the Passover implemented by Moses in the Book of Exodus we interpret it as a physical event portending a spiritual truth. Christians understand that the Passover was really a parable of the Gospel and it is applicable to all people, not just Jews.

This is an anathema to the Jews.

[George S.]

Regarding god.jesus reveals some amazing things about the father.HE created all things
By jesus christ.JEsus spoke and god the father did it.Jesussaid I and the father are one.THat is jesus is part of the God Family.god the father is the head all powerfull etc
Neither begining of days nor end of days.
God is not affected by time.another thing jesus said no man can come to the father
Unless the father calls them.THat is if god cslls you you are his.

[Risto the Great]

RtG,

You were very liberal with quoting both mine and Philosopher's statements in relation to the Jews. In other words, you selected one sentence that you disingenuously thought would support your argument. Philosopher made some very specific statements to which I responded that I mostly agreed, but also I clarified what my differences were. You totally missed both our points. I even pointed a relevant part of the Bible - not for Philosopher's sake (because he already knows that), but for yours. Its obvious that you made no attempt to look it up.

You basically said the bible says otherwise. You always do. But you didn't actually say why. Anyone can say because the bible says so. Muslims can say "because the Koran says so".

But you "mostly" agreed with Philospher even though he said the Jewish God was a different God to the Christian God. Anyone else would call that a radical departure more than a "mostly agree". But if you afford Philosopher that kind of latitude with his interpretation, then why would you be such a pitchko with mine? I know you can't help yourself.

How embarrassing for you to "mostly agree" when you guys weren't even talking about the same God! Further, Philosopher said:

So the argument that Jews were chosen because they of all people have had special insight into the revelations of the Trinity or the fulfillment of prophecy, is inaccurate. The Scriptural position is in fact the opposite.

And you mostly agree!

If I was Macedonia, you would chum up with Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria just to get me I reckon. Mostly because you could "mostly agree" with their outlooks, particularly when convenient.

Further, don't pretend that you know what Judaism believes and teaches. Its obvious to everyone but you that you have no idea. The fact that you think the Messiah and God the Son are two different things demonstrates your complete lack of understanding and betray's your latest claim that you have indeed read the Bible. The Hebrews of the Old Testament understand the Trinity very well. The very first statement in relation to it is right up front in Genesis 1:1 (but you would have to read the original Hebrew version to see why, the English translation just doesn't do it justice).

I often pretend to know many things. I am a professional.

However, if the Hebrews understand (and embrace) the Trinity. Why do most texts say otherwise? They speak of a God that is ONE. You are just giving a (convenient) opinion and I really have to try and read between the lines with you. I suspect you feel the Jews are just a little silly, that the words are there for them to see but they don't see it. Unlike Christians who see it.

"the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God’s One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies."

1 + 0 = 3 (as a particularly good accountant, I can see how this happens, but .....)

Sure, I see some writings about ONE meaning "combined" (in Christian texts), but then I see it flat out rejected in Jewish texts.

I was talking about Jews and you are talking about the Hebrews of the Old Testament. Do you seek to distinguish these peoples? Is this some gentle subject matter revisionism on your part? Please explain if this revised distinction is somehow of benefit to you. I guess we should also talk about early Christians rather than modern Christians as well if this is the case.

Anyway, I can find numerous Rabbis online who confirm disbelief in the Trinity. But its all black and white for you.

Your problem is that you are not interested in this discussion at all. Your only motive here is to attack and abuse those trying to help you, as I was for many years when you decided to finally turn against me and viciously strike out. So be it.

Actually, I didn't even respond to you in this thread. Further, I asked you to go through all of my supposed "attacks" and see what you said that may have precipitated any response. You can visit them again if you like.

Contrary to your opinion, I am God curious and I find it a fascinating concept to think about. I admit I try to see beyond your smug attitude and bigotry and do tend to paint fundamentalist Christians in a hue similar to yours.

You can re-read this thread and see where I intervened and determine if my motivation was to attack. I will have to just call you a liar (again).

You have a filthy habit of avoiding specific responses and I am sure you would prefer the same issues are not repeatedly raised. All part of your persona and bigotry.

Of course you're lying. I have never discussed Muslims and Jews in contrast to Christianity before. You lie often like this. It suits you because you can say things like "I have explained this before". You haven't. I hope you can stop lying about it.

Just apologise and move on, liar.

IF THE JEWS DO NOT ACCEPT THE TRINITY, WHY ON EARTH (LITERALLY) WILL THEY BE AFFORDED (BY GOD) ANYTHING BENEFICIAL OVER THE SINNING CHRISTIANS ?

And the answer is .....

[Vangelovski]

RtG,

What is a fundamentalist Christian?

[George S.]

Why you guys bringing up the trinity.You know how irrelevant to muslims that is.Its like dividing up allah into 3 persons.THe doctrine is a false doctrine because it limits god to 3 personages.
So god is not lomited to so called 3.god can be a billion, trillion or whatever personages.God
Is the family name and will be composed of trillions of beings.
THE DOCTRINE OF the trinity crept up on people who never understood gods plan for msn.
God made man in his image.god said let us us not let me
Make man in gods image.man has the potentual to b
To be as a god being.thats the huuge secret
No one seems to know.

[George S.]

The other thing man was made
So that god could reproduce himself.ThatIs what god us really doing in man.Judt remembrr othdr things need to change begore man becomed god.Man must be born again, of yhe spirit before he can be worthy to recrive rternsl life anf god status.

[Vangelovski]

Can I just get a 'show of hands' here among the Christians (i.e., those that have put their faith in Jesus)?

How many of you believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that all of it is true? That you cannot just pick and choose which parts you like and pretend the rest are irrelevant or that God got them wrong?

I'll put my hand up first.

I just want to see if this is what RtG is attacking as "fundamentalist Christians"..