Question to the Greeks

[Vangelovski]

I smelled the aroma from both near and far, and I still see a "Greek Macedonia", partly because historic Macedonia is largely in northern Greece, and because there is a region in northern Greece called "Macedonia".

Now, if you wish to ignore this, you are free to do so, but in adult conversations on this subject, we have to distinguish the Republic of Macedonia from Greek Macedonia.

So when a Greek writer references "Macedonian" feta, what are we to make of it? Does he mean the Republic of Macedonia or Greek Macedonia? He is a Greek.

You are taking this discussion where it should not. This is not a political or historic debate.

Philosopher,

I don't think we can separate politics from anything to do with Macedonian-Greek relations. The circumstances they have put us into over the past two decades (and probably the last century) preclude this in any practical sense I think.

When a Greek uses the term 'Macedonia(n)' he does so with ethno-political connotations - he usurps the word and changes its substance from Macedonian to Greek. To use the term 'Greek Macedonia', given our circumstances, is to denote "Greekness" in an ethno-historic sense or Greek "ownership" over not only the name, but the territory, its people, history, culture etc.

I don't think we can or should allow that and we should make it clear that we do not condone that sort of usage of what is our name. We can do that by making the effort to call it Greek occupied Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia or words to the effect that show Macedonia and all things Macedonia as separate from Greece and all things Greek. To allow such terminology as 'Greek Macedonia' enter the lexicon is to effectively accept their definition of what that means - a territory, people and history that is Greek.

[Redsun]

I'm afraid you are in the dark. We are not discussing the politics or history of Macedonia. We are not judging the merits of the Greekness of ancient Macedonia or modern Macedonia.

We are starting with the fact that there is a region in northern Greece called "Macedonia", and that this region is part of historical Macedonia. Do you deny this?

You and I can argue that this is occupied land, but we cannot deny that in Greece there is a region called "Macedonia".

Back to reality...

The origin of this discussion is that of Greek member discussing his favorite feta cheese -- Macedonian feta.

So now, let me ask you something Redsun, can you please explain to us what this Greek member had in mind by "Macedonian"? If you have the answer, can you please explain to all of us how you derived this answer?

And Fatso, can you please clarify your comments?

Philosopher - I'm afraid you are in the dark. We are not discussing the politics or history of Macedonia. We are not judging the merits of the Greekness of ancient Macedonia or modern Macedonia.

You qouted me... remember my post started like this, you (that's you) said "because there is a ""region"" in northern Greece called Macedonia"

You used the word "region".

I asked "why is this ""region"" you speak of called Macedonia?"

So are we not discussing "regions"..?

Now you in your last post, you said to me "We are not discussing politics or history of Macedonia. We are not judging the merits of the Greekness of ancient Macedonia or modern Macedonia."

I agree, well I thought we were talking about ""regions"" and ""distinguish""ing between them remember.

Because the second part of what you had qouted me on was, what you (you again) had said "We have to ""distinguish"" the Republic of Macedonia from Greek Macedonia."


Philosopher - We are starting with the fact that there is a region in northern Greece called "Macedonia", and that this region is part of historical Macedonia. Do you deny this?

That word "region" there it is again... Why did you rubbish me on the "politics and the history of Macedonia" when I never mentioned them and then, pretend not to acknowledge that my post was in response to what you had said about "regions" and distinguishing between them.

What are you talking about?!


Philosopher - You and I can argue that this is occupied land, but we cannot deny that in Greece there is a region called "Macedonia".

Argue? Why not talk about it friend.

Philosopher you said "we cannot deny" Ofcourse not. Have I?

Philosopher - Back to reality...

Philosopher - So now, let me ask you something Redsun, can you please explain to us what this Greek member had in mind by "Macedonian"? If you have the answer, can you please explain to all of us how you derived this answer?

Really man?

[Amphipolis]

These norms were recently extended to Canada after their agreement with European Union. Most Greek products received full protection but feta is not among them and has what is called extended protection.

Canadians had to change local products that had the name “feta” and used symbols like Parthenon or Greek columns or pictures from Greek Islands in order to pass as Greek. Their products can still be named “Canadian feta” or “Canadian-type feta”.



This is a weird example. This is a Greek company in Canada. It exports Greek products to Canada but also started making products there that are fully Canadian. So, their (local type of) feta will have a Greek name, a Greek windmill as a trademark (I don't know if they can keep that) but it will have to be named Canadian-feta.

[Philosopher]

Men, brethren, you are all lost I'm afraid. You are politicizing this discussion. Whether you like it or not, there is a region called "Macedonia" in Greece. We are not discussing the merits of this. We are not debating the ethnic implications of it. Greece is a sovereign country, and they have every right to call this region, which is part of historic Macedonia, "Macedonia", just like in the USA the state of Georgia has every right to have a city called "Athens".

Because there is a region in Greece called Macedonia, we have to distinguish between this region in Greece from the Republic of Macedonia. When you go beyond this fact, you are politicizing this discussion, and it is not appropriate in the context of this discussion.

So please spare me you arguments...

[Gocka]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I and I think I can safely say most of us, feel your are wrong. Its really quite simple; just because a historic portion of Macedonia happens to be within modern day Greek borders, that doesn't make it "Greek". Anything other than that line of thinking quite simply supports thier arguments and aspirations. The world can call it what it wants, but us as Macedonians should refrain from calling it Greek Macedonia. Ask even a five year old what he thinks it means and I'm sure he will say "it means that it belongs to the Greeks". If the larger and more significant part of historic Maceodnia belongs to the Greeks then doesn't Macedonia belong to the Greeks? Everything revolving around Macedonian and Greek relations is political and directly connected to the name, the ethnicity, and the history. If it wasn't all political we wouldn't be in this mess.

I think you are being a bit stubborn here. I know you are too intelligent to not see why using that term is counter to our aspirations.

The Greeks don't even acknowledge our land as Macedonia, and you want us to acknowledge theirs as Greek Macedonia? That is ethnic suicide my friend.

Men, brethren, you are all lost I'm afraid. You are politicizing this discussion. Whether you like it or not, there is a region called "Macedonia" in Greece. We are not discussing the merits of this. We are not debating the ethnic implications of it. Greece is a sovereign country, and they have every right to call this region, which is part of historic Macedonia, "Macedonia", just like in the USA the state of Georgia has every right to have a city called "Athens".

Because there is a region in Greece called Macedonia, we have to distinguish between this region in Greece from the Republic of Macedonia. When you go beyond this fact, you are politicizing this discussion, and it is not appropriate in the context of this discussion.

So please spare me you arguments...

[spitfire]

I don't know how you could call ethnic suicide the Feta being a greek product under the name Feta.
It seems that you are fighting for Feta United. Whatever that means.

[Gocka]

First of all I don't give a shit about your Feta, secondly what you call "feta" is a type of cheese that is made in the entire Balkan region, and by universally calling it "feta" a Greek word, now you have made that cheese a Greek cheese. So actually you have given a good example of why you have to be careful what you call something. Now since "feta" is a protected Greek product, you cant sell Macedonian, Bulgarian, French, Serbian, etc etc cheese and call it Feta. Sure you can not call it feta, but then for the entire western world your product would be totally unrecognizable because they only recognize the word feta. So Greeks have defacto usurped that cheese.

This is why you have to be careful what you call things. Thank you for the great analogy, and might I also add you are really annoying and have way too much time on your hands. You wouldn't happen to do this for a living would you?

I don't know how you could call ethnic suicide the Feta being a greek product under the name Feta.
It seems that you are fighting for Feta United. Whatever that means.

[spitfire]

First of all I don't give a shit about your Feta, secondly what you call "feta" is a type of cheese that is made in the entire Balkan region, and by universally calling it "feta" a Greek word, now you have made that cheese a Greek cheese. So actually you have given a good example of why you have to be careful what you call something. Now since "feta" is a protected Greek product, you cant sell Macedonian, Bulgarian, French, Serbian, etc etc cheese and call it Feta. Sure you can not call it feta, but then for the entire western world your product would be totally unrecognizable because they only recognize the word feta. So Greeks have defacto usurped that cheese.

This is why you have to be careful what you call things. Thank you for the great analogy, and might I also add you are really annoying and have way too much time on your hands. You wouldn't happen to do this for a living would you?

No I don't do it for a living. My job is very different.

Let's give another example. How about parmesan? Is it Italian or not?
Inside the EU parmigiano-reggiano and parmesan is PDO.

If you agree to non designation then any given name is of no importance. Therefore, even the names of countries and regions have no meaning.
Are you OK with that?

[Redsun]

Men, brethren, you are all lost I'm afraid. You are politicizing this discussion. Whether you like it or not, there is a region called "Macedonia" in Greece. We are not discussing the merits of this. We are not debating the ethnic implications of it. Greece is a sovereign country, and they have every right to call this region, which is part of historic Macedonia, "Macedonia", just like in the USA the state of Georgia has every right to have a city called "Athens".

Because there is a region in Greece called Macedonia, we have to distinguish between this region in Greece from the Republic of Macedonia. When you go beyond this fact, you are politicizing this discussion, and it is not appropriate in the context of this discussion.

So please spare me you arguments...

How am I politicizing this discussion?

Where have I said that Greece has no right to call that "region" that we are currently speaking of "Macedonia?"

Where Philosopher?

I have no problem with a Greek calling the Aegean area of Macedonia simply Macedonia.

I find it disturbing when I hear a Macedonian refer to that place as Greek Macedonia.

You think your brethren are lost? Your the only one arguing.

[Constellation]

Perhaps a Greek (maybe you, Amp) can answer these pressing questions.

What is the correct meaning of the Greek word "pneuma"?

I understand the word means "spirit".

At its most elemental level, can the word mean "breath"?

If it can mean "breath", is the Greek word for "breath" different than pneuma?

Is this word [pneuma] still used by modern Greeks?

If so, how is it used?

[Amphipolis]

Perhaps a Greek (maybe you, Amp) can answer these pressing questions.

What is the correct meaning of the Greek word "pneuma"?

I understand the word means "spirit".

At its most elemental level, can the word mean "breath"?

If it can mean "breath", is the Greek word for "breath" different than pneuma?

Is this word [pneuma] still used by modern Greeks?

If so, how is it used?

In modern Greek, pneuma has several different meanings (taken from Polylexicon):
breath, esprit, genii, ghost, humor, mind, spirit, wit

I should add: intellect, soul

While all lexicons include "breath" I have never heard it being used for this. The right (relevant) word would be πνοή (pnoe) or αναπνοή (anapnoe).

In antiquity it certainly meant (among others) "breath" and also "wind".