Razer and Stefan - Bulgar morons

[Soldier of Macedon]

I agree it sounds crazy and I can see why you don't like it...

Yet you continue with your effort to polish a turd. Why bother when the situation is obvious? I understand you want to present your people in the best possible way here, and that is fair enough. But don't insult our intelligence by applying false shades of grey on something that is black and white.

What I'm trying to say is that you need to draw a line between two things in your view of Bulgarians - it's one thing to talk crazy shit, and another to actually do crazy shit.

They deny the existence of Macedonians in their country. That is crazy shit they do, not just talk of. Is this something you're having trouble understanding? Did you not read the report that AMHRC provided?

Think of Bulgarians as a mad dog that just barks, but doesn't bite. I'm afraid the real bites will come from the other side of Macedonia.

What are you talking about? How will Macedonia bite?

We can clearly see that parts (not all) of Macedonia were under Bulgarian rule, including Ohrid. At that time, the main powers on the Balkans were the Bulgarian and Byzantine Empires. Of course, the populous of those two states was multi-ethical and in my opinion, included the relatives of ancient Macedonians.

You're stating the obvious and something which I haven't denied.

Wrong. Bulgaria did play a role in the creation and then distribution of the Cyrillic alphabet.

You're confusing events. You asked "why did Cyril and Methodius developed the alphabet", I responded with the below:

Cyril and Methodius were Macedonian educators who developed the Glagolica alphabet and translated the Bible in a Macedonian dialect. They did this with the aim of providing other peoples in Europe with a means to hear liturgy and learn literature in a related language to their own. Their mission began as an initiative of East Rome and afterward took on a life of its own. It had absolutely nothing to do with Bulgaria.

Cyril and Methodius did not invent the Cyrillic alphabet that Boris adopted for his kingdom. In fact, Boris never even laid eyes on Cyril or Methodius. The Cyrillic alphabet was invented by the Macedonian disciples of Cyril and Methodius. You need to get your facts rights.

This is far from nothing mate!

See my response above. You're talking about two different things. I don't deny a certain relevance of Bulgaria when it comes to the Cyrillic alphabet, but none of the modern sources that you've posted indicate that the alphabet was created specifically for Boris or Bulgaria. Furthermore, none of those modern sources refute my earlier explanation, they just use terminology which is more palatable to people like yourself.

Simeon's grandson was Roman of Bulgaria and Samuil (Tsar Samuil) was serving as a general in his army.

Garbage. Samuel and his family fought against the Bulgar Peter and his sons, Roman and Boris. According to Skylitzes, Roman later served Samuel, not the other way around.

And the town of Skopje was surrendered to the Emperor by Roman, the son of Peter, Tsar of the Bulgarians, and brother of Boris, called also Simeon after his grandfather and placed there as governor by Samuel. The Emperor received him and after honouring him for his decision with the title of patrician and prepositor, sent him as a strategus to Abydos. (John Skylitzes)

Roman, your last (former) ruler who descended from the original Bulgar aristocracy, was a weakling and an opportunist, and was not loyal to Samuel, even after the latter had spared his life and given him a honourable position.

And one day you can go to Ohrid, visit the St. Naum monastery and in it you'll see with your own eyes a beautiful fresco of Boris I dating back to around 900 AD I think.

I'm not aware of it, but it wouldn't be unusual given that Boris was the head of the kingdom under which much of Macedonia found itself in during that period. What is that supposed to prove anyway, that Macedonia is somehow 'ethnically' or 'historically' Bulgarian? Perhaps one day, you can go to the St. Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Sofia that was built in honour of the Russians who liberated and created modern Bulgaria, and lay a candle for the 'greatest' of medieval Russian princes, and ponder whether or not you may be ethnically and historically Russian.

[George S.]

Razer If there is a bulgarian language which there isn'tBut there is the Macedonian Language.Please explain to me what the tartars did.They adopted the macedonian language & a label was put on it as bulgarian.Spare the bs there never was a bulgarian language & if you are smart enough you know it.If it wasn't for macedonians like Cyril & mrthodius you would still be speaking the language of the tartars.Notice how in desperation that they got nothing to show for it over the years the bulgarians have tried to bs that macedonians are bulgarian.Just examine whose language you are speaking macedonian & not bulgarian.One bulgarian said to me you go to bulgaria & you will see how they copied everything history to culture etc they got nothing to show for it it's all macedonian.Virtually all the streets are macedonian words why because you got nothing to show for yourselves.Too ashamed to say you copied the macedonian language etc.Hence the denial of ethnicity etc it's all BULGARIAN to you!!Funny that the greeks have a similar propaganda of being greek.

[Risto the Great]

There are two views - the old one that it was Turkic and the new one (since the fall of communism) that it was Iranian. It's hard to say because Bulgarians moved a lot. My opinion is that is started as Iranian, then got mixed with Turkic and Slavic.

I have heard some Croats speak of Iranian connections as well.

I'm sure you would agree the language of the Macedonians Kiril & Metodi was quite new or fresh for the Bulgars. If I was going to codify a new written language, I would probably be inclined to accept the teachings of experts in the language. The Macedonians were clearly in a better position than the Old Bulgars in this respect. Wouldn't you agree?

Considering we all accept the Old Bulgarians spoke a different language prior to the interaction with Macedonians and neighbouring peoples, I find it quite unpalatable (in fact offensive) that Bulgarians seek to call the language of Kiril & Metodi as Old Bulgarian.

Further to this, it flows logically that any lingual familiarity that Bulgarians and Macedonians share can only have come from one direction. Macedonia -----> Bulgaria. As a consequence, it is demeaning on a number of levels for Macedonians to be viewed as second class Bulgarians by Bulgarians.

I tend to think of Bulgarians as neighbours with likeable characteristics that stem from Macedonian influences.

Having said that I also accept that many Macedonians shaped what is modern Bulgaria today. I have read half of Sofia consisted of Macedonian immigrants in the 1950's in addition to the Pirin region naturally.

I believe a brother of my late grandmother was even a politician there in the 1960's after being kicked out of Egej as a child.

Clearly the geographic location and lingual familiarity has always made Bulgaria an interesting place for Macedonians. I just wish more Bulgarians could appreciate where they learned what they presently define as "Bulgarianness" from.

[Razer]

Regarding me trying to paint a nice picture about the Bulgarians - that's not true. On the contrary, I'm very critical of them. They are far from perfect. All I'm saying is that they are not the big bad wolf you think and if you one day come to Bulgaria you'll see that for yourself - I'll be happy to welcome anyone of you into my home and give you a tour, with 50% discount

Indeed it seems we misunderstood each other about the Cyrillic. I too never said that Boris invented it only for the Bulgarians. And remember Bulgaria at that time was a multi-ethical kingdom. But you, like all Macedonians, make it sound that Bulgarians stole the alphabet, like some dirty gypsy stealing a purse, and that they must not be credited with a single thing.

[Razer]

PS - Iet me look into John Skylitzes, it sounds interesting...

[Razer]

Just a quick question - what are you toughs of Peter Delyan? Was he really the grandson of Samuil?

[Risto the Great]

like some dirty gypsy stealing a purse

That is harsh, the gypsy knows the purse doesn't belong to him!

[Risto the Great]

I'm feeling bad now.
Razer, I regard Bulgarians about 3 times as stupid as Macedonians. They have about 3 times the population. Macedonians and Bulgarians have had a little too much Balkan drama mixed in with commie terrorism to make them too different to anyone else in the region. The reality is that I am sure I would find nice Bulgarians as well as completely dumb-arsed ones in Bulgaria. Same goes for Macedonia.

[George S.]

Does the word "adopted "the Macedonian language sound fine to you.To me as long as it is admitted i don't mind if the whole world spoke macedonian.I don't know if you know the song by ac/dc "dirty deeds done dirt cheap".As much as you don't admit it Bulgaria done the dirty on macedonia in 1913 when it took over the macedonian lands.Don't say it took over because they were bulgarian lands.They never were before.If you beleive your own propaganda.Since then all sorts of claims have sprang up about macedonians apart from denial of ethnicity etc but they laid claim to a lot of things without valid justification.Since when one country can belong to another country.To counteract that all sorts of bs propaganda reared it's ugly head.The fact is no matter how good a picture you paint of the bulgarian people.There has allways been an innate desire for more & more macedonian land.Make no mistake the bulgarians have a secret desire for macedonia,the whole of macedonia.As i said we know the history,so don't try a rosy picture of it's people as something different it's not.As long as the country overall keeps & holds the macedonian minority huge sizable proportion in Pirin macedonia & as well as pretending that nothing is going on .When in fact basic human rights are being ignored.The bulgarians still disregard the macedonian ethnos & regard macedonians as bulgarians .Also denials of culture etc etc history fabrication etc the list is endless.So don't paint a rosy picture through colored glasses when knowing full well the bulgarian govt has broken every human rights requirement under the sun.They rewrote the book on genocide,destruction of a people that's the macedonian people.You should know full well that the whole of the pirin region was/is known as macedonia for a reason.That's that it belonged,belongs to the macedonian indigenous people.So don't give me the bs that the bulgarian people are great.

[DraganOfStip]

Razer,you say Slavi Trifunov is just a harmless joker?Then what is your opinion on this:

The Bulgarians in Macedonia - YouTube

So much for the 'jokes' of Slavi Trifunov,of him not being serious and all.He is just as ignorant towards Macedonians as the majority of your people.I know,I worked a while aboard a cruise ship with Bulgarians,and they spread their filthy propaganda even among other nations in the crew.You can't convince me otherwise,i had personal experience about your people's view on Macedonia and Macedonians.

Slavi Trifonov's comment about the propaganda&lies in FYROM - YouTube

Mocking us again.

[Soldier of Macedon]

All I'm saying is that they are not the big bad wolf you think......

I will believe that when most Bulgars stop behaving like racist morons towards Macedonians. Your odd perception about people being "good" despite insulting others remains delusional. You clearly don't know what it is like being Macedonian and having to deal with that sort of idiotic garbage from every single one of your neighbours. I asked you before to find me just ONE website where Bulgars don't have that sort of a pathetic attitude towards Macedonians. You avoided it. Are you planning on addressing that point? Surely, if there are so many "good" Bulgars, this should be an easy task.

.......and if you one day come to Bulgaria you'll see that for yourself - I'll be happy to welcome anyone of you into my home and give you a tour, with 50% discount

Where in Bulgaria are you from?

Indeed it seems we misunderstood each other about the Cyrillic. I too never said that Boris invented it only for the Bulgarians.

Who said anything about Boris inventing it? You implied that Cyrillic was created for Boris when you said "the alphabet was created under the orders of Boris". I asked you for evidence of this. I am still waiting.

And remember Bulgaria at that time was a multi-ethical kingdom.

Right.

But you, like all Macedonians, make it sound that Bulgarians stole the alphabet, like some dirty gypsy stealing a purse, and that they must not be credited with a single thing.

Wrong. Macedonians only claim that which their own ancestors achieved. We don't deny that Bulgars created a kingdom or that this kingdom came to rule/occupy much of Macedonia. We don't deny a shared history during certain periods of time. And I wouldn't characterise the adoption of Cyrillic by Boris as 'theft', but to claim it as a 'Bulgar' invention is theft. It is your people who deny that the alphabet and associated language they adopted was a product of Macedonian scholars, our ancestors - even though this is an undeniable fact.

Just a quick question - what are you toughs of Peter Delyan? Was he really the grandson of Samuil?

Hard to say. Some claim he was, others claim that Ivan Vladislav killed all close family members of Gavril Radomir, who was the son of Samuel and supposed father of Delyan. Just so it's clear, I don't subscribe to the theory that Samuel had three brothers. In the only surviving inscription made by Samuel, he refers to only one brother, and that brother was not the father of Ivan Vladislav.

[George S.]

Why are you painting that rosy picture of bulgarians as being good when they don't really respect who we are.If you think that the bulgarians harbour no annimosity to macedonians you are deluding yourself>Just think what took place & what is taking place in the pirin region.You are saying that you aren't aware of what's going on.You deny of what's going on that's what is the reality.So you come on this forum & are telling only one side of the story & that is the bulgarian side.We noticed how you are pretending of not knowing & how you are going to find out.Isn't that like saying you don't want to beleive what we are telling you.You still carry on whils't our macedonian brothers & sisters are being persecuted in Pirin Macedonia.Why for being Macedonian.

[Razer]

I'm feeling bad now.
Razer, I regard Bulgarians about 3 times as stupid as Macedonians. They have about 3 times the population. Macedonians and Bulgarians have had a little too much Balkan drama mixed in with commie terrorism to make them too different to anyone else in the region. The reality is that I am sure I would find nice Bulgarians as well as completely dumb-arsed ones in Bulgaria. Same goes for Macedonia.

I agree. The main problem for me is that they don't seem to care and politicians are using this to do whatever they want. For me, one large part of Bulgarians over 40 y/o need to go see a psychologist. They need a reality check. Yes - salaries are low, but don't just complain about it and moan like a baby - go and do something about it! Get a better job or start your own business! It's like they live in a prison.

But I have faith in the people from my generation (in their 30's) who are a lot more open-minded and well educated.

[Razer]

@ George S.

In Bulgaria OMO Ilinden is regarded as a separatist organisation with links to Serbian and Turkish intelligence. Do I believe it? I can't say that. For now, I'll just have to keep researching and gather information from both sides.

[Razer]

Btw, here are few clips of the so called oppressed Macedonians in Pirin. To me they seem to have a good time. YES, THIS IS IN BULGARIA.

СЪБО�* НА ОМО ИЛИНДЕН МЕЛНИК-22.04.2012Г. - YouTube

СЪБО�* НА ОМО ИЛИНДЕН-МЕЛНИК 2012Г.mp4 - YouTube

СЪБО�* НА ОМО ИЛИНДЕН.mp4 - YouTube

СЪБО�* НА ОМО ИЛИНДЕН-МЕЛНИК.mp4 - YouTube