Razer and Stefan - Bulgar morons

[George S.]

you are spot on onur.They are just denying their real history because they got nothing to be proud about.They copied the macedonian literary language & called it bulgarian which was from macedonia.So do you really think they would easily admit it.Do you think they are game to admit their real roots of course not.
//"bni Fadlan gone there to islamize them just like Cyril&Methodius christianized you few decades before. Volga Bulgars was speaking Turkic as Ibni Fadlan wrote in 10th century and they are still speaking Turkic today."" I fully support that if they knew their roots ,they don't want to know them.So but as Bulgar. So Tatar = Mongol, and Volga Bulgar = Bulgar.They don't want to know the real bulgars dissapeared in the annals of history long time ago , replaced by tartars.mongols.This is what they fear most that the world to find out the reality regarding the "bulgars".The truth is very hurtfull.So what do we have today.The occupation illegally of macedonian lands in pirin (macedonia)Taken away by the bulgarians dare i call them buulgarian,they should be called thieves to the nth degree.taking lands falsifying that they are macedonian then denying that & calling it bulgarian,falsifying & stealing history,falsifying history,falsifying that there are no macedonian minorities on it's soil.Also the best tool in trade is denial of people's human rights,Denial & paranoia are the main tools of trade when one considers the real version of events.

[Razer]

@ George S.

Can you please comment on the following...Do you know who wrote it?

[Razer]

@ Onur

When did I deny that Bulgarians used to speak turkic? I'm perfectly fine with that, and nobody is even talking about this...I simply corrected you when you said that the Bulgarians did not play any role in the creation and distribution of the Cyrillic alphabet. Anyone who disagrees with this is only insulting his/her intelligence.

[Razer]

And can please anyone comment on the following map, showing the Byzantine themes? Why is the Bulgarian Theme over Macedonia?

[Razer]

Garbage. Samuel and his family fought against the Bulgar Peter and his sons, Roman and Boris. According to Skylitzes, Roman later served Samuel, not the other way around.

Ok, but that still doesn't make Samuel Macedonian. What historical everyone do you have to support that view?

[George S.]

855-886] Two Macedonians, brothers Cyril and Methodius from Salonica, the ‘great and the first city of the Macedonians’ as described by Byzantine historians, create the first Slavonic alphabet and promote Christianity among the Slavic peoples. Cyril and Methodius’ disciples Clement and Naum of Ohrid spread the Christianity in the Slavonic language and establish the first Slavonic University, the Ohrid Literary School.



[867-1025] Basil I the Macedonian (867-886) is the first Macedonian to become a Byzantine emperor, founder of the Macedonian dynasty. The empire reaches its zenith in a period known as the ‘Golden Age’, while ruled by the Macedonian Dynasty from 867 to 1025.



[First half 10th century] The Bogomil teaching appears in Macedonia and grows into a large-scale popular movement that spreads through the Balkans and Europe.

[976-1018] With the weakening of the Byzantine Empire, the Macedonian Slavs rebel against Bulgarian authority and under Tsar Samuel create a strong Macedonian Slav medieval kingdom with its center at Ohrid. Samuel expanded his kingdom conquering parts of Greece, Epirus, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Dalmacia, but is defeated by the Byzantine emperor Basil II the Macedonian in 1014. By 1018 his empire is retaken by Byzantium.



[1040-1072] Two major uprisings erupt against Byzantine rule in Macedonia, one led by Samuel's grandson Petar Deljan (1040), the other by Gjorgji Vojteh (1072).



[1389] Despite the rebellions, and the short-lived Serbian and Bulgarian occupations in the 13th and 14th centuries, Macedonia remained Byzantine territory until the Ottoman Turks conquer it in 1389.

[1564-1565] The Mariovo-Prilep Rebellion is the first recorded significant Macedonian resistance movement against the Turkish occupation.



[1689] The Karposh Uprising follows in northern Macedonia. The leader Karposh is captured and executed on the Stone Bridge in Skopje.

[1767] Under pressure from the Greek Patriarch in Istanbul, the Turks abolish the Ohrid Archbishopric, which had been keeping alive the spiritual soul of the Macedonians since the times of Tsar Samuel.

[1822] The Negus Uprising erupts, an insurrection of the Macedonians for liberation in southern Macedonia.

[1828-1878] Greece (1828), Serbia (1830), and Bulgaria (1878) gain independence from Turkish rule and display territorial aspirations on Macedonian territory. The so-called "Macedonian Question" appears. The Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs compete in their quest to occupy Macedonia and in the same time put obstacles to Macedonian independence.

[1876] The Razlovtzi Uprising in eastern Macedonia against Turkish rule heralds the Macedonian national liberation struggle.

[1878-1879] The Macedonians rebel again in eastern Macedonia against the Turkish occupation with the Krersna Uprising. The Macedonian freedom fighters adopt a constitution known as the Rules of the Macedonian Uprising Committee. The uprising sets strong influence on the growth of Macedonian national awareness.



[1891] Bishop Theodosius of Skopje begins a campaign for an independent Macedonian Orthodox Church and restoration of the Ohrid Archbishopric, which had been abolished in 1767. The Bulgarians effectively destroy the idea.

[1893] The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (VMRO) is founded in Salonica. Under the slogan "Macedonia for the Macedonians", its objectives are national freedom and establishment of independent Macedonian state. Georgi (Gotse) Delchev becomes its leader.



[1903] The Macedonian revolutionaries "Gemidzii" carry out series of attacks on number of buildings in Salonica in order to draw the attention of the European public towards the plight of the Macedonian people. On August 2, 1903 VMRO launches the Ilinden Uprising against the Turks and declares Macedonian independence. The revolutionaries liberate the town of Krushevo and establish a Republic with a government. The uprising is brutally crushed by the Turks. Krushevo is burned to the ground and more then 150 Macedonian villages destroyed. In this same year Krste Misirkov from Pella (Postol), the founder of the modern Macedonian literary language and orthography, publishes his "On Macedonian Matters", in which he projects the principles for standardization of the Macedonian literary language.



[1908] The Young Turk revolution shutters the Ottoman Empire. The Macedonian revolutionary organization, through Jane Sandanski and the newly formed National Federal Party, actively takes part in the Young Turk movement for achieving autonomy for Macedonia.



[1912-13] Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria join forces, and with the help of 100,000 Macedonians defeat the Turkish army in Macedonia. Macedonia is denied independence and the Treaty of Bucharest (August 1913) partitions the country between Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria. Greece takes the biggest, southern half of Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia) and renames it to "Northern Greece”. The Greek army burns to the ground the town Kukush, the birthplace of the Macedonian leader Georgi (Goce) Delcev. Bulgaria annexed the Pirin region and abolished the Macedonian name, and Serbia took over the Vardar region and renamed it to "Southern Serbia".



[1914-1918] In 1914, World War I erupts. Bulgaria sides with the Central powers and by 1915 occupies the Serbian held part of Macedonia (Vardar). The defeat of the Central powers and the end of World War I in 1918 saw the partition of 1913 reconfirmed and Macedonia is left divided.

[1919] At the Paris Peace conference the demands of the Macedonians for independent and united Macedonia are ignored. The Treaty of Versailles sanctions the partition of Macedonia. Vardar Macedonia is re-incorporated with the rest of Serbia and into the new Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, later renamed Yugoslavia.

[1924] The May Manifesto, resolution of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia on the right of the Macedonian people to self-determination. Greece prints out the primer "Abecedar" in the Macedonian language for the needs of the Macedonian children in Aegean Macedonia but it withdrawn before it reaches the schools.



[1925] VMRO (United) is founded in Vienna under the leadership of Dimitar Vlahov. Its main objective is to free Macedonia within its geographical and economical borders and create an independent political unit that will become an equal member for future Balkan Federation.

[1935] The Macedonian National Movement MANAPO is established in the Vardar part of Macedonia.

[1936] The Macedonian Literary Society is founded in Sofia by outstanding Macedonian writers.

[1940] The Fifth Nationwide Conference of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia passes a resolution on the equality and self-determination of the Macedonian people.

[1941] World War II erupts and Bulgaria as fascist ally of Hitler’s Germany occupies almost all of Macedonia (both Vardar and Aegean) and collaborates with the Nazis for the departure of the Jews of Salonica to concentration camps. On October 11, 1941, the Macedonians launch a war for liberation of Macedonia from the Bulgarian occupation.

[1943] The anti-fascist sentiment lends support for the growing communist movement and the Communist Party of Macedonia is established. The first unit of the Army of Macedonia is founded and government bodies (national liberation councils) are formed over the whole territory of Macedonia. The Headquarters of the National Liberation Army (NOV) publishes a manifesto of the goals of the war for liberation.

[1944] On August 2, 1944, 2282 years after the Battle of Chaeronea and on the 41st anniversary of the Ilinden uprising, the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) proclaims a Macedonian state. Representatives from all parts of Macedonia gather for the occasion and decide on the constitution of a modern Macedonian state as member of the new Yugoslav federation. The ASNOM presidium is formed with Metodia Andonov Chento as its first President.



[1945] The first government of the People's Republic of Macedonia is founded (April 16) with Lazar Kolisevski as its President.

[1946] The first constitution of the People's Republic of Macedonia is adopted. Start of university education in Macedonian (Faculty of Philosophy).

[1946] Bulgaria, under the leadership of Geogi Dimitrov officially recognizes the existence of the Macedonian nation and the right of the Pirin part of Macedonia to be attached to the People’s Republic of Macedonia. The majority of the population in the Pirin part of Macedonia declares itself as Macedonian in a free census.

[1946-1949] In the Greek Civil War (1946-1949) that followed World War II, the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia fight on the side of the Greek Communist Party (KKE) as it promised them their rights after the war. About half of the 35,000 soldiers of DAG are Macedonians. On the liberated territory in Aegean Macedonia 87 Macedonian schools are opened, newspapers in Macedonian are published, and cultural and artistic associations created. But after few years of KKE's success, the communists lose the war, and the Macedonians are once again stripped of their human rights. 28,000 Aegean Macedonian children, known as 'child refugees', are separated from their families and settled in eastern Europe and Soviet Union in an attempt to save them from the terror that followed. Thousands of Macedonians lost their lives and great numbers of the Macedonian villages are burned to the ground.

[1956] In the Bulgarian census of 1956, the majority of the population of Pirin Macedonia again declares itself as Macedonian. Since then Bulgaria under nationalist Todor Zhivkov reverts its decision of recognizing the Macedonian nation and once again forbids free expression of Macedonian nationality and language.

[1958] The Ohrid Archbishopric, abolished in 1767 by the Ottoman Turks under Greek pressure, is restored.

[1967] The Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences is founded. The autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church is proclaimed.

[1986] The Greek paper "Elefteros Tipos" announces that Prime-Minister Papandreu in the talks with Yugoslav presidency member Stane Dolanc has agreed to recognize the Macedonian language as one of the official languages in Yugoslavia.

[1988] Greek Prime-Minister Papandreu and the Foreign Affairs' Karolos Papulias, agree to recognize the Macedonian language in Greece. The banker’s affair "Koskotas" brings down the PASOK government, and the documents were never signed.

[1989] The United Macedonian Organization - Ilinden (OMO Ilinden) is founded in Pirin Macedonia, demanding cultural and national autonomy for the Macedonians in the Pirin part of Macedonia.

[1991] Federal Yugoslavia disintegrates as Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia declare independence. On a referendum on September 8 the Macedonians proclaim independence. Kiro Gligorov is elected first president of independent Macedonia. New constitution is adopted, declaring the Republic of Macedonia a sovereign, independent, civil, and democratic state, and recognizing complete equality of the Macedonians and the ethnic minorities in the country.



[1993] Macedonia is admitted to the United Nations.

[1994] Afraid that Macedonia might put forward a historical, cultural, and linguistic, claim over Aegean Macedonia, Greece insists that the there is no Macedonian nation and that the Macedonians have no right to use the name "Macedonia". Greece imposes a trade embargo on Macedonia because of the Macedonian refusal to rename the country, nation, and language, and change the Constitution Article 47 that specifies "the Republic of Macedonia cares for the statue and rights of those persons belonging to the Macedonian people in neighboring countries”. At the same time, Greece withdrew from the Greek - Macedonian talks, monitored by the UN as a mediator, and blocked any acceptance of Macedonia in the international institutions by using its power to veto new members.

[1995] Macedonia becomes a member of the Council of Europe. The Human Rights Watch condemns Greece for the oppression of its large ethnic Macedonian minority, which Greece denies it exists. Both Amnesty International and the European Parliament also urge Greece to recognize the existence of the Macedonian language and stop the oppression of the ethnic Macedonians on the Macedonian territory it appropriated in 1913.

[George S.]

samuil had an empire streching through bulgaria.He was known as tsar samuil & he was definitely Macedonian.We have another case because the salonika brothers who were macedonian went to bulgarian to give them the cyrillic alphabet.They immediately make out that they are bulgarian.Same with all sorts of macedonians they try to bulgarise them.
Tsar Samuil was A macedonian.THe same goes with many other kings basil etc etc .Why waste time when you are biased.I told you before you have no history to be proud,you have no people called bulgarian(real).You go into Bulgaria & look at your toponyms.THEY ARE MACEDONIAN.THey even have a ulica ,ST named after macedonia.They revere to gotse delcev,yane sandanski,misirkov,Dame gruev,THey call them bulgarians.HOw brainwashed can you be.THese people & others are fucking MACEDONIAN.Just because you say they are Bulgarian doesn't make them so.Grow up yhis is 2012.We know what went on you tried to usurp our history,you lied about yours.You say that the samuil tsar dynsty was bulgarian.You say the byzantine empire was bulgarian .That's bullshit it was Macedonian.

[Razer]

@ George S

Mate, one thing I've learned from debating with atheists (me being a new-born Christian) is that you never go to a debate unprepared. And accurate information is the best ammunition. I have seen the timeline you've presented many times before. To me, it's a mixture of 99% truth and 1% lies - kind of like rat poison. I'm not even sure I should respond to it, because from your previous posts I see you're very confused and too emotional to have any kind of easy-going conversation. Two of your own previous posts actually proved my point, but you ignored them. Anyway, I'll just be short...

855-886] Two Macedonians, brothers Cyril and Methodius from Salonica, the ‘great and the first city of the Macedonians’ as described by Byzantine historians, create the first Slavonic alphabet and promote Christianity among the Slavic peoples. Cyril and Methodius’ disciples Clement and Naum of Ohrid spread the Christianity in the Slavonic language and establish the first Slavonic University, the Ohrid Literary School.

Everything is true here. Just the part about Ohrid being within Bulgarian territory is missing, but that's ok...

[976-1018] With the weakening of the Byzantine Empire, the Macedonian Slavs rebel against Bulgarian authority and under Tsar Samuel create a strong Macedonian Slav medieval kingdom with its center at Ohrid. Samuel expanded his kingdom conquering parts of Greece, Epirus, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Dalmacia, but is defeated by the Byzantine emperor Basil II the Macedonian in 1014. By 1018 his empire is retaken by Byzantium.

To me this is the cherry on the top and the creme dela creme. I just can't believe that anyone with a working brain can make sense of it. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but even from logical point of view this doesn't make sense, forget about historical...So we have Tsar Samuel, who's Macedonian fighting against Basil II, who's also Macedonian. Right! Few small problems...1) They can't both be Macedonians. 2) The Byzantine theme of Macedonia was far from Ohrid, on the other side of the Balkans. 3) This "strong Macedonian Slav empire" lasted only 42 years and had one single ruler? And was destroyed by a Macedonian? Too many questions, I'm beginning to lose track...

[1040-1072] Two major uprisings erupt against Byzantine rule in Macedonia, one led by Samuel's grandson Petar Deljan (1040), the other by Gjorgji Vojteh (1072).

Ok, but they forgot to mention that Peter Delyan (not the Serbian "Deljan") was Bulgarian and he proclaimed to be the ruler of Bulgaria. There are of course, many sources to confirm that, but I'll just post two miniatures from that time:

First, a miniature depicting Peter's proclamation for Bulgarian king (notice the next on the top right).



And another one of Peter and his rebels, titled Bulgarians.



I'll just stop to here because I'm not sure the time spending writing this is worth it...I'm sure all I'll get is the usual "dirty Tatar, stealing our history!" reply...Good night from me.

[Razer]

samuil had an empire streching through bulgaria.He was known as tsar samuil & he was definitely Macedonian.We have another case because the salonika brothers who were macedonian went to bulgarian to give them the cyrillic alphabet.They immediately make out that they are bulgarian.Same with all sorts of macedonians they try to bulgarise them.
Tsar Samuil was A macedonian.THe same goes with many other kings basil etc etc .Why waste time when you are biased.I told you before you have no history to be proud,you have no people called bulgarian(real).You go into Bulgaria & look at your toponyms.THEY ARE MACEDONIAN.THey even have a ulica ,ST named after macedonia.They revere to gotse delcev,yane sandanski,misirkov,Dame gruev,THey call them bulgarians.HOw brainwashed can you be.THese people & others are fucking MACEDONIAN.Just because you say they are Bulgarian doesn't make them so.Grow up yhis is 2012.We know what went on you tried to usurp our history,you lied about yours.You say that the samuil tsar dynsty was bulgarian.You say the byzantine empire was bulgarian .That's bullshit it was Macedonian.

Wow, wow, wow...

[Onur]

When did I deny that Bulgarians used to speak turkic? I'm perfectly fine with that, and nobody is even talking about this...

Thats not the point. The point is that your current language was not your original tongue as you confirmed above. You can call it Iranian, Afghan Pashto or Zulu language whatever, you name it but the fact is that your current language is the language that you have been assimilated with and it was same for the Cyrillic script being favored over runic script.

I simply corrected you when you said that the Bulgarians did not play any role in the creation and distribution of the Cyrillic alphabet. Anyone who disagrees with this is only insulting his/her intelligence.

You confirm that you have been assimilated with it. Now tell me what kind of role you could have during the creation of it if you were speaking another language and using another script at that time? Like i told you, you were just subjects of that process. If that wasn't the case as you claimed than it means that Bulgars of 9th century suddenly woke up in a day and said to themselves something like "lets get baptized and create a new alphabet and new language for ourselves too". Is this your scenario?

Btw if Bulgarian language is being presented as first slavic language and Cyrillic as Bulgarian alphabet today, because it`s not "politically correct" in today`s world to say the opposite. There is no other reason.

And can please anyone comment on the following map, showing the Byzantine themes? Why is the Bulgarian Theme over Macedonia?

For the same reason of why the north of danube shown as Turkic Pecheneg territory because during that time, a part of Macedonia was under Bulgar domination, just as the Pechenegs was ruling in the north of danube river, in today`s Bulgaria and Romania.

[Razer]

@ Onur

You're not being serious. Of course this was a complex process that took time and afford. But Bulgaria had the necessary infrastructure, resources and influence to make it happen, especially during the reign of Simon the Great. I'm not sure what they teach you about Bulgaria in Turkey...Can you summertime it for me please?

[Onur]

Bulgaria had the necessary infrastructure, resources and influence to make it happen, especially during the reign of Simon the Great.

Infrastructure and resources was coming from Macedonia and eastern Roman empire but yes, recently christianized ex-khan Bulgar tsars had the influence.

I`m glad that you deleted your comment about Simeon supposedly "printing" 200.000! bibles in early medieval era but it`s ok, we are getting some progress tough.

Now can you please answer me if your current language was not your original tongue as we all agreed, then whose language it might be? Whose language the Cyril&Methodius brothers might have used while creating Cyrillic alphabet? Who might be the people used it in Ohrid, Salonika? It wasn't Bulgars because they were using Afghan Pashtu, Turkic or whatever, they cant be Greeks either, then whose language it might be?

I'm not sure what they teach you about Bulgaria in Turkey...Can you summertime it for me please?

Well, we don't get educated here about Bulgaria but we do learn about medieval Bulgars because it`s part of our history but obviously no one here tells us something like Bulgars are Aryans from Afghan mountains supposedly speaking Pashtu iranian language as they do in Bulgaria today.

[Risto the Great]

When did I deny that Bulgarians used to speak turkic? I'm perfectly fine with that, and nobody is even talking about this...I simply corrected you when you said that the Bulgarians did not play any role in the creation and distribution of the Cyrillic alphabet.

The Macedonians created it.
The Russians played a far greater role in its distribution.

If you are going to place your reliance on the Catholic website, you might have to change teams and embrace the filioque addition to the Nicene Creed ... and probably send some money to the Pope I suppose.

Everything is true here. Just the part about Ohrid being within Bulgarian territory is missing, but that's ok...

Macedonia has been under a number of territories over the milleniums. Romans come to mind. Right now it is squarely under a hybrid USA/Euro thumb. Yet Macedonians still remain Macedonian. Go figure.

Nobody really knows what the ancient Macedonians spoke yet everyone knows the direction the language went when it came to the Bulgarians. i.e. Macedonians -----> Bulgars

It isn't that hard to grasp and it really should be taught like this in Bulgaria.

[Risto the Great]

Onur, thank you for your comments. Particularly as they come from a position of comparative neutrality.

[Razer]

@ Onur

I only deleted my commend about the 200,000 Bibles because it's pointless from my side to give you details on topics you on't seem to know very well...You don't even seem to know about Boris I, Simeon the Great or the literacy schools in Preslav, Pliska, Ohrid and later Turnovo..."Printing" was bad choice of word on my side, sorry - I meant writing.

Infrastructure and resources was coming from Macedonia and eastern Roman empire but yes, recently christianized ex-khan Bulgar tsars had the influence.

I repeat, at that time there was not a kingdom called Macedonia. I think you know this, but hide it, just so you can score points with the guys here. At that time on the Balkans the two ruling empires were Byzantine and Bulgaria.

Now can you please answer me if your current language was not your original tongue as we all agreed, then whose language it might be? Whose language the Cyril&Methodius brothers might have used while creating Cyrillic alphabet? Who might be the people used it in Ohrid, Salonika? It wasn't Bulgars because they were using Afghan Pashtu, Turkic or whatever, they cant be Greeks either, then whose language it might be?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you pls paraphrase it? I'll answer you as much as I can, I promise.

Well, we don't get educated here about Bulgaria but we do learn about medieval Bulgars because it`s part of our history but obviously no one here tells us something like Bulgars are Aryans from Afghan mountains supposedly speaking Pashtu iranian language as they do in Bulgaria today.

I think you're overestimating some claims. The view that Buglars are of Iranian origin has developed over the past 20 years and it's not just a wishful dreaming. Just because the Bulgars spoke Turkic, that doesn't make them Turkic. Where all people who spoke Greek in the antiquity Greek? Or the same with Latin? Today, all languages in Western Europe are based on Greek and Latin (who themselves are based on other languages), does that make everybody Greek or Latin? Or look at Russia today - everybody speaks Russian there, but there 185 different ethnic groups. And look at all the different races in the US - they all speak English, but we all know there are people of all kinds of origin...It's lie saying - "All people in the US speak English, so they must be English!". Turkic, with all it's forms, was among the most popular languages in central Asia for centuries and it makes sense that Bulgars used it, especially when they were under the dominion of the Gokturks Khaganate.

But I repeat - nobody is saying for sure what the origin of Buglars is. In Bulgaria, this is still researched. But nobody in the academic circles is making bold claims, like you seem to think.

So can you tell me what they teach you about medieval Bulgaria? I guess not much, since you don't even know who Boris I and Simeon the Great were...