Kosovo fans burned Macedonian flag

[George S.]

The greeks were promising to send in troops & tanks if the war spilled into macedonia.Especially in the 2001 albanian war.Greece made all sorts of excuses of how it cross borders on pretext avoiding any spills over borders.BUT TUrkey told greece any moves to macedonia by greece would not be allowed by turkey.Turkey was prepared to defend macedonia.THe greeks think that they still are owed some sort of territory called paeonia & perhaps have irrendist conundrums as serbia doesnt own macedonia.

[George S.]

voltron i don't think that was serious of serbia telling greece.But greece said it wanted to protect it's borders & go into macedonia.I think the turks just warned them not to go in.If for some stupid reason the greeks went in on the pretext of protecting it's borders macedonia could have asked turkey for help as they are allies.Whils't nato would try to diffuse the situation i wouldn't trust them.

[George S.]

So onur what do you think will happen to kosovo.Do you think the albanians are desrving to get the whole of kosovo.Or should kosovo be shared with the albanians & serbs.I wonder how that will work out.?

[Voltron]

George, If we were like Turkey we would of gone in there with our military, create a buffer zone for "humanitarian reasons" and sit there for the next 5 decades. You dont know the half of it.

[George S.]

Voltron what makes you think that greece can just walk in into macedonia as it's a sovereign country.Can i walk in to greece on some stupid pretext & invade greece teritory.I don't think soWhilst' Macedonia is not capable of attacking a country it is capable of defending itself.Voltron we may not have the same power as greece we should be able to give you a good hiding as proven in iraq & afghanistan.So i wouldn't think of future border incursions.I bet you are shaking in your boots.Remember the macedonian army was outnumbered by the persians.About 40,000 macedonians beat half a million persians.So let that be a warning & not a threat.

[Onur]

Onur, I heard that rumor that Milosovich offered to meet us in the middle. It was the Greek government that turned the offer down (if this is even true).

It might be true. It`s no secret that all the Serbian criminals has been kept hidden in Greece by Greek government and it`s no secret that your church was collecting money for Serbian army in the streets of Athens and praying for more dead muslims.

I think you give Turkey to much weight. Turkey cannot threaten a fellow NATO member even if it thinks they are in the wrong.

No, i am not but it wouldn't be wrong to say that Turkey is more heavyweight than Greece+Serbia combined and yes we can threaten you (so-called the fellow NATO member) if it`s necessary, as we did in 1974 for Cyprus issue. I am also quite sure that Turkey really threatened Greece behind closed doors for not to intervene Macedonia in 1991.

So onur what do you think will happen to kosovo.Do you think the albanians are desrving to get the whole of kosovo.Or should kosovo be shared with the albanians & serbs.I wonder how that will work out.?

I wish there would be a peaceful solution but i don't think it`s possible for foreseeable future. Kosovo became like Iraqi kurdistan, a rogue state created by NATO, full with CIA agents and the local people waving US flags around.

Albanians of Kosova should be shameful of themselves for handing over their territories to CIA because they should know that there can be no peace like that and in the end, they will be the one who`ll suffer, just like the Arabian people of middle-eastern states. CIA only brings more conflicts but never peace.

But Serbian authorities are to blame for that again. They were the rulers in Kosova. They could have create peaceful solutions but instead, they followed a genocidal policy and indirectly invited CIA/NATO to their country by that. All these people, Albanians, Serbs and Bosnians was living in peace, without any major conflicts during Ottoman era for 500 years, why they couldn't continue to that during Yugo regime?

[George S.]

Voltron i know for a fact i read in a news magazine how the greeks threatened turkey if it came even 1 meter into greece territorial waters it would start a war.I think the last thing the greeks need is some stupid war with turkey.I think a war amongst nato members is the last thing that the eu needs.I think nato just doesn't send troops as easily as we think.
So they all need to think how they can better get along in peacefull ways.

[Phoenix]

you macedonians should be happy that they couldn't do that to your people by allying greeks from the south. They were about the enter macedonia with tanks and heavy artillery in 1991 and about to massacre people in skopje. only turkey and few other countries was able to stop that happening but greeks would probably jump in joy if that would be realized. I wouldn't be surprised that if greek politicians encouraged them to do so in 1991.

bullshit............

[George S.]

Phoenix i remember reading about that i think it's just wild speculation of things that might happen & i did read if the macedonians invited turkey the turks would lend them a hand after all they are allies.I don't think anyone took it seriously.

[Onur]

Then you tell me Phoenix, what stopped Serbian tanks to enter Skopje? As soon as Croatia and Slovenia voted for independence, Serbian army attacked both with tanks, bombed all over Croatia with their airforce. Tell me why Slovenia and Croatia couldn't even enjoy their votes while Macedonians was able to send fireworks to the sky at the same time? Croatians, Slovenians was able to escape to the Hungary but if Serbian tanks would enter Skopje, you would all be drowned in vardar river because you couldn't even escape to Greece either, Greek soldiers would kill you all on sight.

Or you are THAT much Serbophil and even deny that Serbian army was about to enter Macedonia after your announcement of referendum for independence? What might have stopped Serbia, Serbophils of Macedonia like you?

[Soldier of Macedon]

On what base Kosova belongs to the Serbians? When Ottoman empire annexed it in 1370s, there was a renegade and weak 40-50 year old Serbian state in there and after a single battle, it became part of the Ottoman empire for more than 500 years.

What happened during the 1370's was the battle of Maritsa. The only armies who defended the region against the Ottomans on that occasion were those commanded by Volkasin and Uglesa. They were two brothers that descended from the aristocracy of the Serbian kingdom but were based in Macedonia and fiercely independent of the rulers in Serbia, whom they turned against and fought. The Ottomans didn't defeat Serbia until after the battle of Kosovo in 1389. Contrary to what you may think, its existence as a state was longer than a mere 40-50 years and it wasn't conquered after a single battle.

If you say that Kosova is a Serbian proper then some other comes up and say Macedonia and Croatia are Serbian too and you wouldn't say any proper answer against this claim. Tell me whats the difference between Macedonia, Croatia, Slovenia, Kosova? Zero, none!

Plenty of differences. You need to brush up on your history.

[FriendofMacedonia]

Both Macedonia and Serbia should remain independent and continue to develop their own individual cultures. I would much rather (if there were no outstanding issues) see a regional economic arrangement which would be equally beneficial for all parties involved, but certainly not to the extent of establishing a federation.

Its probably for the best. Yugoslavia, or any imitation of it, can (judging from history) never work out, but closer economic co-operation is a route I think we can all support.

What could Serbia have done to prevent the loss of Kosovo?

That's a tough question. I honestly don't know if a war could have been prevented as Albanian nationalism in Kosovo was on the rise as early as the 1980 (the riots, the paracin massacre etc.) and this was still under Yugoslavia when Kosovo had a near-republic level of autonomy and was being treated quite fairly. Not to mention the ever increasing tide of Serbian nationalism as well (the autonomy of Kosovo should have never been revoked, no matter for how short a duration, that was an idiotic move).

Where Serbia failed utterly and what led to our eventual downfall was in the field of diplomacy. Albanians were extremely good at portraying themselves as eternal victims and Serbs as uncompromising oppressors and garnering support in Western countries through this method. While their lobbies and media were actively gaining Western sympathy, we did absolutely nothing to portray our side of the story and make allies among the Western states like they did. While they were making allies, we were ostracizing the rest of the world and in the end, it came to bite us in the ass in form of a NATO bombing campaign that ultimately led to our withdrawal from Kosovo.

Our entry into Kosovo to quell an uprising is no different than the Israelis entering their Arab-populated territories and doing the same. Its what any legitimate government would do if part of their territory was threatening secession. The only difference is the Israel, through active lobbying was able to gain the support of the West, we did the opposite, gained their disdain, and eventually were at war with them.

FriendofMacedonia, You must be gutted at the lack of backing coming from Belgrade.

I've lost all faith in our government to be honest. I mean for fvck's sake, a foreign country, Russia, has sent the Kosovo Serbs more humanitarian aid than our own government. Half of the politicians in Serbia are opportunistic criminals and I'm convinced that the only reason they haven't recognized Kosovo is because they know they would be ousted from government the next day by the Serbian people.

The Serbs had been blocking UN and Albanians from implementing any type of power in those Serb inhabited areas in Kosovo. I hope they stay strong and vigiliant. The polticians on the other hand can go to hell.

Couldn't have said it better myself and at this point, I think most Serbs would agree with you that our government has done very little to actually help the Kosovo Serbs.

On what base Kosova belongs to the Serbians? When Ottoman empire annexed it in 1370s, there was a renegade and weak 40-50 year old Serbian state in there and after a single battle, it became part of the Ottoman empire for more than 500 years.

First off, Serbia became a part of the Ottoman Empire in 1459 with the final defeat of the Serbian despotate (and even then we had a Serbian despotate under the banner of Hungary in Vojvodina).

Secondly, Serbian statehood is FAR longer than 40-50 years. The Serbian principality was established in 768 and apart from 50 odd years or so under Byzantine rule, Serbian statehood existed right from 768 to 1459 (and again in 1817).

Then you tell me Phoenix, what stopped Serbian tanks to enter Skopje?

What stopped us is the fact that we had no reason to attack Macedonia. Look at 1990's, Serbia clearly had no qualms about going to war, so if wanted to attack Macedonia, we probably would have done so. But again, we had absolutely no reason to do so.

But Serbian authorities are to blame for that again. They were the rulers in Kosova. They could have create peaceful solutions but instead, they followed a genocidal policy and indirectly invited CIA/NATO to their country by that. All these people, Albanians, Serbs and Bosnians was living in peace, without any major conflicts during Ottoman era for 500 years, why they couldn't continue to that during Yugo regime?

Genocide? Cmon man, the Holocaust was a genocide, Kosovo was a small scale war with war crimes.

After 12 years of intensive investigation, they have found a grand total of 2,100 bodies, both Serb and Albanian. That is by no means a genocide. I am not denying that war crimes were committed (by Serbs ) but there were also numerous war crimes committed against Serbian civilians as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_Bar_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gora%C5%BEdevac_murders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podujevo_bus_bombing

The killing and organ theft of more than 300 Serbian civilians?

The are no black hats and white hats in war my friend .

[George S.]

i remember reading about how serbs in kosovo numbered about 100,000 & Albanians
numbered 800,000.The serbs complained to milosevic that the albanians were beating them up.Miilosevic promissed to do something about it.

[Onur]

Secondly, Serbian statehood is FAR longer than 40-50 years. The Serbian principality was established in 768 and apart from 50 odd years or so under Byzantine rule, Serbian statehood existed right from 768 to 1459 (and again in 1817).

Thats not true, my friend. Avars settled your people around Belgrade in 8th century. Then you were part of the Bulgar empires, Hungaro/Austrians, Eastern Romans. During that times, some of you have been christianized by the eastern Romans (aka Serbians), some by the Franks/Latins (aka Croatians) and finally some of you have been islamized by the Turks (aka Bosnians). Today`s Serbia, Bosnia, Kosovo was in totally ruins because wars between Bulgars, eastern Romans, Austro-Hungarians. Also crusaders totally desolated the place too, by massacring orthodoxes and bogomils. These all written in crusader chronicles. Serbia was independent only for few decades before 1370-1380s.

Yes, Serbia officially became part of the Ottoman empire in 1450s but you were just vassals since the battle of Kosovo. Serbian princes like Lazarevic and Marko was the best allies of the Ottoman sultans between 1380-1450 AD, providing them armies of 10.000s soldiers for Ottoman wars against Persia, Timur, catholic Austro-Hungarians. All Serbian rulers was personally participating Ottoman campaigns.

What stopped us is the fact that we had no reason to attack Macedonia. Look at 1990's, Serbia clearly had no qualms about going to war, so if wanted to attack Macedonia, we probably would have done so. But again, we had absolutely no reason to do so.

Then why Serbia attacked Croatia and Slovenia in 1991 as soon as they decided to go for a referendum of independence? Both Slovenia and Croatia has been bombed by Serbian airforce, tanks entered Slovenia, dubrovnik ports has been demolished etc. Macedonia did the same, Serbian army was about to enter Macedonia too but you have been stopped.

[chentovist]

Then you tell me Phoenix, what stopped Serbian tanks to enter Skopje? As soon as Croatia and Slovenia voted for independence, Serbian army attacked both with tanks, bombed all over Croatia with their airforce. Tell me why Slovenia and Croatia couldn't even enjoy their votes while Macedonians was able to send fireworks to the sky at the same time? Croatians, Slovenians was able to escape to the Hungary but if Serbian tanks would enter Skopje, you would all be drowned in vardar river because you couldn't even escape to Greece either, Greek soldiers would kill you all on sight.

Or you are THAT much Serbophil and even deny that Serbian army was about to enter Macedonia after your announcement of referendum for independence? What might have stopped Serbia, Serbophils of Macedonia like you?

What stopped the Serbs? Nothing they hadn't even left yet. JNA tanks were already in Skopje, as they had been for decades before. It was Kiro Gligorov who negotiated a peaceful retreat of the JNA from Macedonian territory. Why would Serbs attack their fellow Orthodox Christian neighbours? They might have done so to massacre the Albanians in Macedonia, but not the Macedonians. The Serbs also could not fight on so many fronts at the same time, so they left Macedonia peacefully. Yes there were some murmurs about an 'Autonomous Serbian state of Karadak' in Skopska Crna Gora by Seselj's supporters, but this went nowhere.

Onur, can you please explain why you think Turkey would go to war over Macedonia. What is in Turkey's interests to do so?