Kosovo fans burned Macedonian flag

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonia posed no military threat to Serbia, there was a very small Serbian minority, and it would be a hugely unpopular war with the Serbian people. We had no reason to go to war with Macedonia, so we didn't.

There was no local 'fifth column' of significance that would have supported a military takeover of Macedonia by Serbia. Despite years of colonial rule and oppression, the Serbian population in Macedonia remained tiny when compared to Macedonians. If there were more Serbs in Macedonia, Serbia would have certainly invaded.

So Turkey would go to war to protect the Turks of Macedonia who are a mere 77,959 people?? C'mon what else motivates the neo-Ottomans??

Politically speaking, Macedonia and Turkey are allies. I am not sure how far the Turks would have gone to bat for Macedonia, but I doubt they would stay silent in the case of a Greek-Serbian invasion of Macedonia.

[chentovist]

Turkey and Macedonia are allies, but Macedonians need not be blind to the ambitions of the Turks;

http://www.skopjediem.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10958:turkish-pm-visits-tetovo-and-gostivar&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=81

Turkish PM Visits Tetovo and Gostivar

Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan took part at Friday’s prayers held in the Painted Mosque in Tetovo, after which he addressed those present during his visit to the city. Speaking at the mosque, Erdogan said that after visiting Tetovo 11 years ago as soon as completing his prison term, the Justice and Development Party had been established. “In 2002 the party assumed power and I can tell you that in 2023 - a century since the establishment of the Republic of Turkey - we will be one of the ten most developed economies worldwide. We can never forget you since there are grandchildren of Ottoman descendants amongst you. Our brothers live in Bosnia, in Pristina and Prizren and in Skopje, Bitola, Ohrid, Debar, Tetovo,” the Turkish PM said. Also, several thousands of Gostivar residents welcomed Erdogan.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Are you suggesting that Turkey has ambitions for Macedonia? What are they? Cultural solidarity between Balkan and Anatolian Turks?

[Phoenix]

Or you are THAT much Serbophil and even deny that Serbian army was about to enter Macedonia after your announcement of referendum for independence? What might have stopped Serbia, Serbophils of Macedonia like you?

You've got to fuckin' kidding me...what's going on around here, looks like a few people here are sharing Brians bong...

Me a "serbophil"...I don't know whether to laugh or cry, it actually makes me comfortable wearing that crack whore Brians "NWO scum" claims by comparison.

[Risto the Great]

Phoenix, I always thought you had "tendencies".
Just not sure what they are though.

[George S.]

serbofle or maybe kosovafile.You can take your pick.He didn't even know he had them.

[chentovist]

Are you suggesting that Turkey has ambitions for Macedonia? What are they? Cultural solidarity between Balkan and Anatolian Turks?

Turkey is a regional player and has ambitions. Maybe Onur can explain them to us better, being a Turk and all.

[Bill77]

Turkey is a regional player and has ambitions. Maybe Onur can explain them to us better, being a Turk and all.

chentovist, those days are over,
where neighbours invading neighbours or countries beyond (unless you are Nato/US).

The game has changed where now, invasions, power change, territorial claims happen within.

I don't doubt Turkey would offer some assistance if Macedonia needed. But it would be via invitation by Macedonia, rather than barging in and going hell for leather.


Also, i am not sure what you meant by highlighting a sentence (words by Turkish PM) in that article you posted.

Our brothers live in Bosnia, in Pristina and Prizren and in Skopje, Bitola, Ohrid, Debar, Tetovo

Do you think you are blowing it out of proportion? (thats if you are suggesting it means territorial claims or any other sinister intentions)

[chentovist]

Also, i am not sure what you meant by highlighting a sentence (words by Turkish PM) in that article you posted.

Quote:
Our brothers live in Bosnia, in Pristina and Prizren and in Skopje, Bitola, Ohrid, Debar, Tetovo  

Do you think you are blowing it out of proportion? (thats if you are suggesting it means territorial claims or any other sinister intentions)

The cities mentioned coincide with Komita's map that he posted earlier...

I think it's quite telling that when the Russian FM visits Macedonia, he visits churches in Ohrid. When the Turkish PM visits, he goes to mosques in Tetovo and Gostivar....hmmmm I don't know maybe I'm reading into this too much, or may be I'm not since both countries maintain a large intelligence presence on our territory....

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, I always thought you had "tendencies".
Just not sure what they are though.

Risto, I get Ozimak calling me a "NWO scum"...This Turkish fellow calls me a "serbophil"...I've had DCH call me something along the lines of a "US apologist"...

I am the Phoenix, many things to many different cultures...but if a tendency is a movement or prevailing movement, I can assure you that the Brian's, Onurs and others aid me in the regularity of my movements, at least twice a day...

[Onur]

So Turkey would go to war to protect the Turks of Macedonia who are a mere 77,959 people?? C'mon what else motivates the neo-Ottomans??

Turkey is a regional player and has ambitions. Maybe Onur can explain them to us better, being a Turk and all.

Chentovist, we have worlds of difference between our mentality and psyche. It would be difficult to explain to you but ok;
Turkish people are overly cautious about the remaining Turks in Balkans and Bosnians too because of 100.000s of Bosnians living in Turkey since 1880s. About one million of our people died in Balkans between 1877-1912, 3 million more migrated to Anatolia. Tito expelled out ~150.000 more from Macedonia in 1950s and ~350.000 more expelled out from Bulgaria in 1989. These people constitutes about %35 of Turkish population.

Whether Bosnians or Turks, these people are prime subjects of a genocide in any case of conflict in Balkans. Russophil Komita`s so-called map of "green line", your conspiracy theories, your persistence to call Bosnians, Macedonian muslims as "Turks", serbophils, "orthodox brotherhood" freaks and their general hostility towards all muslims etc. Even the general conception of people in this forum is the proof, despite that this forum is no where near like the other racist ones. For example, you come up with some conspiracy theories for our current PM`s visit to Gostivar. When Macedonian president visited Izmir last year, everyone asked from him to send Macedonian teachers here and help them to open language courses. If i would be in same psyche as you, then i would feel same as you and call them as "aliens, traitors" but i am not. No one does that here, everyone supports opening Macedonian language courses.

And yes, we can go into a war for 77,959 of our people. If a government here, refuses to save these people from the hands of Greeks or Serbs, they cant even walk in the streets without getting spitted on their faces in Turkey, let alone having a political carrier. While commanding a power in their hands to save these 77.959 people and be a local hero, no one wants to be called as a traitor here.

We did it in 1974, for less than 100.000 of our people in Cyprus despite two years of US embargo afterward, and we can do it again. So, maybe you can call 80.000 of your people as "mere unimportance" but thats not the case around here.

[Big Bad Sven]

Hey FOM,

Cheers for responding to my post. Its great that you put in a lot of effort on Macedonian history. From my experience with people from macedonia’s neighbours there effort in studying Macedonia goes as far as “Tito created Macedonia”.

I have been one of the more vocal and critical against the serbs on this forum in the past, but believe it or not I actually do want to see good neighbourly relations and friendship with Serbia, and also the other neighbours of Macedonia in the future. Serbia did a lot of bad things to Macedonia in the past, just like the ottoman turks did, but because Turkey has been very friendly and a good allies to Macedonia, I am, and I believe a lot of Macedonians are willing to let that slide and try to continue to build good and strong bonds with Turkey. It would be great if the same could happen between Serbia and Macedonia. Plus I view Serbia as the least racist/manipulative towards Macedonia and there is a decent population of serbs that have a positive outlook towards Macedonia and Macedonians – unlike say modern Greece or the shiptars in Macedonia were you would be lucky to find at leats 2% of the population that think positively of Macedonia.

However……..

Maybe I might come off a bit arrogant in saying this, I believe the reason as to why politically and religiously there seems to be a lot of hatred between Serbia and Macedonia is solely because of the Serbian nationalism, the SOC, and to a lesser extent the Serbian government. Macedonia is not to blame for this, it is entirely the serbs fault.

You say you do not know much about the issue between the MOC and the SOC, which I find so strange because you seem to know a lot about Macedonian history but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however if you simply spend some time in researching who jovan vraniskovski is and who is financers are then you can see why a lot of Macedonians are not so trust worthy towards the serbs, especially the SOC. IMHO jovan vraniskovski is a tool created by the serbs and financed by the SOC and GOC to divide the Macedonian community and cause trouble in Macedonia.

Still on the religious topic, I see the SOC refusal of the MOC as Serbia’s last grip on its old policy of denying a Macedonian identity. Not so surprisingly the GOC is a huge supporter of the SOC not recognizing the MOC. What right does the SOC have in denying the MOC independence and freedom? Why can there be a Albanian orthodox church but Serbia has a problem with a Macedonian church?

Still on the religious topic, Serbia has had a huge issue with Prohor Pčinjski. You knowing a lot about the Macedonians who thought for the communists would know how much of a important site Prohor Pčinjski is for Macedonians, yet because of the great Serbian heroe Sejsel, Macedonians and Macedonians priests were not allowed to go to that site for almost 10 years. I believe with the recent jailing of Jovan Vraniskovski by the Macedonian authorities the SOC has pulled a similar stunt (from memory).

Finally, I personally find it hard to become friendly with a people who nationalist leaders who beated the war drums through the entire 90’s about Macedonia. We had another popular Serbian hero in Arkan who was qoated for saying that Macedonia had no need to exist and that Serbia and Greece should share a common border. We had Milosovic make secret plans to invade Macedonia but ironically the greek side pulled out, and then we Sejsels party and supporters in Macedonia that openly talk about Macedonia becoming part of Serbia, with their party even having maps of Macedonia as a part of Serbia.

Even today your foreign minister Vuk Jeremic has been rather anti-macedonian, by wanting Serbia to reverse its recognition towards Macedonia and also being rather close to the greek “point of view” towards Macedonia.

However those are just some of the reasons as to why I don’t trust Serbian people, however I do want both sides to become closer and friendlier, but this can only happen if Serbia drops its old and out of date policy of colonizing Macedonia and having joint borders with Greece.
However this is just my opinion, the majority of Macedonians have a extremely high opinion of Serbia and conviently forget about what happened towards Macedonians during the “Vardaska Banovina” days or the 90’s.

[Big Bad Sven]

What stopped the Serbs? Nothing they hadn't even left yet. JNA tanks were already in Skopje, as they had been for decades before. It was Kiro Gligorov who negotiated a peaceful retreat of the JNA from Macedonian territory. Why would Serbs attack their fellow Orthodox Christian neighbours? They might have done so to massacre the Albanians in Macedonia, but not the Macedonians. The Serbs also could not fight on so many fronts at the same time, so they left Macedonia peacefully. Yes there were some murmurs about an 'Autonomous Serbian state of Karadak' in Skopska Crna Gora by Seselj's supporters, but this went nowhere.

Onur, can you please explain why you think Turkey would go to war over Macedonia. What is in Turkey's interests to do so?

LOL the old orthodox brothers excuse.......

You do no in the 1st balkan wars that the bulgarian slavs and the serbs committed a lot of crimes against each other, you know, fellow orthodox brothers?

What about the glory days of Vardaska Banovina? You know there was a reason why macedonians thought back against serbian brutality and colonization towards macedonians which resulted in a macedonian assassin killing the serbian king in france?

Lets be honest here, there were plans by the serbian side to invade macedonia and divide it with greece, so that the serbian nationalist dream of sharing a common border with there brothers greece could be achieved. It was only when the greek side chickened out that it didnt go through.

We also had arkan and Sejsel publicly state that macedonia had no right to exist, and we even had the leader of the serbian minorty in macedonia push for indpendance.

I think with the greeks bailing out in the last minute, and also with the serbs having wars in slovenia, croatia, bosnia, and soon to be kosovo, they were stretched to far and wide.

Another reason is that they didnt respect the macedonians, saw them as a non issue really. Even milosovich stated that that macedonia was a nonety, and would eventually break up. Milosovich didnt even respect gligorov, it took milosovic up untill 1995 to finally meet Gligorov.

Funny that you talk up gligorov as creating some sort of master plan for peace. Gligorov only achieved peace by selling out the name and flag to the greeks, and practically giving away every bit of army equipment to the serbs leaving macedonia weak and defenseless. When Yugoslavia was falling a part he was fighting hard to preserver a loose federation with serbia LOL - Some macedonian leader.

[Big Bad Sven]

Well put.

They arranged with Kiro Gligorov to basically take whatever they want (and they did, not only weapons and equipment paid for by Macedonian taxpayers, but literally the electrical outlets from every military barracks). We let them take it all, and we started fresh.

A bit of info about how the friendly serbs had the "right" to take everything from macedonia - thus leaving them decenceless against the nationalistic shiptars in macedonia:

By November 1992, and without major incident, the Yugoslav Army had left the territory that until 1941 had been part of southern Serbia, and under Tito a full republic of Yugoslavia. The most serious problem arose over the JNA’s attempting to remove the radar system at Skopje airport.

Details of the withdrawal were prepared in a 16-point agreement signed in April 1992 by Gligorov and the acting Yugoslav Defence Minister, Blagoje Adzic. Skopje had been the headquarters in the Second Yugoslavia of the 3rd military district of the JNA including some 20,000 men deployed directly in Macedonia. All equipment was intended to be placed under joint JNA-Macedonian control but in the end the Yugoslav Army adopted a virtual scorched earth policy, destroying or removing facilities and equipment that was the property of the Macedonian Territorial Defence Force according to Yugoslavia’s two tier system.

Even military hospitals and stores buildings were withdrawn when the JNA pulled out. The radical Macedonian officers’ group, the Secret Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation, staged protests over the stripping of the barracks, which it claimed violated the agreement between Gligorov and Adzic.

Macedonia: Warlords and the rebels in the Balkans
By John Phillips
Page 51

[Soldier of Macedon]

We had another popular Serbian hero in Arkan who was qoated for saying that Macedonia had no need to exist and that Serbia and Greece should share a common border.

BBS, is there a source for that?