Macedonian Children in Neret, Lerin, Brainwashed by Greek Government!

[Bukefal]

Soldier of Macedon,
I prefer discussing and analysing specific stories including (why not) gore details.
When I asked for this in the past I wasn�t very impressed by the stories you eventually produced.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=73119&postcount=51

No, I�m not suggesting Julie is a liar, but I do live very close to your villages. I can visit them tomorrow and ask the people there or meet your relatives. I also have access to generally a lot of material in Greek (e.g. newspapers, the published files of the Communist Party of Greece, etc).

Julie,
This is to refresh your memory

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4395&highlight=airline&page=3

Your explosions don�t scare me. I�m� experienced with angry divorcees.

Rosetta, please just cut the bullshit, with your 'i have material, i can visit your relatives'.

If you go to these villages you will see there are Macedonians. Period. You know it and I know it.

And so what? Cant you just accept it or at least try? Instead of your never ending contra discussions. Stop worrying about Macedonians ok? They are not going to eat you. They are there, they are humans, they just want to live a normal life, thats it.

You should worry about your country being a mess and going mental right now tbh

[Mastika]

Mastika,
So, now that everybody can see the sources/data you mentioned, here�s what I suggested back in post#14. If we consider Riki Van Boeschoten�s Tables to be accurate for their time (early 1990s) we would expect the percentages of Rainbow Party to be:
-higher in the villages she classifies as S-M1,
-then lower at S-M2,
-lower in S-M3,
-even lower at the mixed villages (S-R),
-further lower at the mixed villages (R-S),
-almost zero at the villages without S.

This is not correct. You cannot draw a reliable correlation between ethnicity and the votes of a political party. They are two different things.

The problems are:
-I don�t know how accurate her work is. It can certainly be a reference.
-It�s been 20 years since then
-Her classification is linguistic; it�s not about ethnic-Macedonian consciousness

Point One; It is one of the most accurate works about the linguistic demographics in Northern Greece.

Point Two; Yes, it has been 20 years, however much has been done to assert the Macedonian identity over the past 20 years. You only need to search Macedonian villages on youtube where there are numerous panagur videos of them singing patriotic Macedonian songs (I guess however hundreds of people dancing to such songs is not a good enough source showing that they do not consider themselves to be ethnically Greek)

Point Three: Yes, it is a linguistic classification. However, if these people were really Greek (in an ethnic sense like persons from Athens, Corinth etc.) then they would not be continuing to use the Macedonian language at such a high level, and they would not be passing on the ethnic Macedonian traditions to their children. The fact that they are promoting the use of the Macedonian language strongly suggests that they do feel ethnically Macedonian.

On the other hand the election results ARE accurate, though open to political interpretation. So, shouldn�t you use all that to find a correlation and check the validity of her Tables?

Yes, they are accurate in showing those persons who voted for Rainbow Party. They are not accurate in showing persons ethnicity. There are even forum-goers from Aegean Macedonia who post here (are etnically Macedonian), however do not like Rainbow, and therefore do not vote for them. By your logic these people would not be considered ethnically Macedonian, as they didn't vote for Rainbow. It is an absurd logic.

Your methodology is flawed. Stop trying to claim that only Rainbow voters are ethnically Macedonian.

I will ask you again, do not dodge the question. What Macedonian speaking ethnic group lives in the village of Neret?

[rosetta]

Julie,
Your answers have nothing to do with my questions. You repeatedly mentioned your family suffered atrocities by Greeks and I asked you if you want to tell us about it (including who, when, where, what, why in the extent that you are willing to). You won�t tell us. Fine. I�m not surprised.
Except from the forum of my work, I�ve never been in any Greek forum. Since I already live in Greece I don�t see the reason.
I�m here for two reasons:
-I�m a truthful Macedonian attracted by the name of the forum
-I�m very interested in the opinions of foreigners on Greece. Anything one tells me about his impressions on Greek people, travels in Greece, Greek books, history, music, films etc, I�m very interested to hear and I wouldn�t get bored even if it was 200 pages long (as long as it was written by him).

[rosetta]

Bukefal,

Some users seem totally clueless not only to Greece or Macedonia, but to Europe of our time, expecting a military dictatorship or an anarchist revolution to happen next week. Others are asking what European Union has done against Metaxas(!) or believe policemen are hiding under the bed of Macedonians to assure they talk dirty in Greek.

Ozimak was asking passionately for details on whether a Macedonian revolution, secession and reunification is a realistic option today. Others consider Macedonia an occupied territory and George S was asking if maybe we want to �give it back�. Others expect the Bucharest Treaty to suddenly change even though Republic of Macedonia is not part of the Treaty. Others believe archaeologists are hiding the good findings or Andronikos wrote the Greek inscriptions with his pen.

I hope what I said was not misunderstood. I only meant that if someone from Australia using his imagination and prejudice is trying to describe how things are next to my house, I will just reply and his allegations may be scrutinised.
Unlike many of you, I�m not irrelevant to the area or the topics of Balkan Wars or Civil War so I was suggesting that everybody should put some measure and balance to his bullshit.

[rosetta]

This is not correct. You cannot draw a reliable correlation between ethnicity and the votes of a political party. They are two different things.

You’re kidding, right? This political party is the only one that aspires to represent this ethnicity.

Throughout this post you identify ethnicity with language or language of the ancestors. Some of the leaders of Rainbow Party (e.g. Dimitris Lithoxoou) are not Macedonians, some of the core members cannot speak the language, and their journal is in Greek. Some people from Polypotamos vote for Popular Orthodox Rally.
People who are more nationalist usually vote for New Democracy. Socialists attract the majority, having a “tolerant” policy. Communists and leftists don't believe much in the importance of ethnicity.

Yes, national identity is not defined only by language. It’s complicated, but which “target group” are you interested in?

So, you’re an optimist and believe Polypotamos is a “M1” village. You’re not in Australia, are you? Why don’t you pay a visit there and listen for yourself? Take a silent walk on the streets, the square and the falls and listen to children playing in the schoolyard, young boys playing football, old people in cafes. You wouldn’t trust me. Why don’t you find out yourself?

I will ask you again, do not dodge the question. What Macedonian speaking ethnic group lives in the village of Neret?

I’m afraid I don’t understand it. Do you want to know how we call the language in Greek? Do you want to know if I consider them Greeks? Be more clear.

[julie]

[QUOTE=rosetta;102339]Julie,
Your answers have nothing to do with my questions. You repeatedly mentioned your family suffered atrocities by Greeks and I asked you if you want to tell us about it (including who, when, where, what, why in the extent that you are willing to). You won�t tell us. Fine. I�m not surprised.
Except from the forum of my work, I�ve never been in any Greek forum. Since I already live in Greece I don�t see the reason.
I�m here for two reasons:
-I�m a truthful Macedonian attracted by the name of the forum
-I�m very interested in the opinions of foreigners on Greece. Anything one tells me about his impressions on Greek people, travels in Greece, Greek books, history, music, films etc, I�m very interested to hear and I wouldn�t get bored even if it was 200 pages long (as long as it was written by him).[/QUOTE]

That is the first time you have said you are Macedonian.
I have previously told you what happened to me family and you stated I was lying , these things did not happen. That is an insult to me, and to all who have endured under the hands of the grks, Whatever your previous name was before thessa , and you were banned.
Will tell you again , short version , so that you may ridicule me again

At the time of the civil war, my maternal grandfather was taken away by 2 grks to be beheaded in the village square in dolno kotori , his village, for speaking Macedonian and refusing to speak grk as was forced upon them, after the name of their village was changed and their name. His brother was taken away few days previously and his head adorned a post in the square, his new young bride was raped and in my grandfathers house after that event. She ended up suiciding , pregnant.

My grandfather bent down to "fix" his shoe and in the process turned and knocked out one of the guards, the other one he grabbed and did the same, he ran away , nightfall, as one of them was shooting at gim
My beloved grandfather ran over the border to Republic

They came and took my gentle baba and put her in prison and beat her to tell them where he was hiding, of course she had no idea and spent time in knocking her unconscious with stones and bricks.
(baba suffered naby strokes after this and the final one killed her when she was in her early 60's

They came and grabbed my mum's sister, at 13 and you can guess what they did to her, I cant talk about it, its terrible.
When they finished with her, they came for my beloved uncle, who was just turned 14 years old. They spent 2 days beating the living shit out of him, crucified him , his feet with nails and threw him out, leaving him for dead in a pit. A couple of women, great aunties, from the village cared for him and hid him. When he was stronger, he vowed he would die for Macedonia, and for honour for his family, and left as a partisan .

my mum's 4 year old sister was one of the "refugee" children and was sent away. My mother was a baby, and the only fate tshe endured was never having her family reunited again

My family were wealthy, my grandfather owned the kafana, and my grandmother had vineyards given to her from her family
They were proud Macedonians and their crime was speaking the language
They did not want to be "good" grks. 7 generations, my family history goes back to, a long lineage, of priests.
They did not ask to be greek, they are Macedonian, that fake border that partitioned my people came from the Balkan wars

My uncle is still alive, and god be willing I will see him soon. I will be visiting my granparents graves.
My wish is for all of occupied Macedonia to enjoy basic human rights
My granparents property was seized.
Dad was born in the Republic of Macedonia, they did not suffer as much as my mums family, but were given serbanised names under Tito
I am passionate about my Macedonian ethnicity. The reason I dont appreciate the new refugee Albanians in their demands on the Republic of Macedonia, is I dont want to see all that is left partitioned again.

I dont hate anyone, but unjustified claims by new migrants is something that must be addressed

Now Rosette/thessa, you are going to question me further.
You are once again going to tell me I am lying. My uncle showed me his cars and the bullet lodged in his skull that cannot be removed or he will die, they missed his temple, and the inflamation he suffers evry couple of months is terrible. My aunty also told me what happened to her, and was ashamed and distressed. Shamed.
All of this for refusing to speak Grk and being called a communis bulgar spy.
I am Macedonian. Macedonian blood flows through my veins. I dont have and grk blood, My bloodline from dads side of the family goes back 5 generations. Macedonian
What the grks did to the Macedonian people is despicable and nothing to be proud of. The joy the grks had , the laughter and mirth in raping young girls, torturing young boys, and killing people , slaughtering them like animals, beheading them, that is fully sick

Please dont call me a liar again.

[fatso]

Our side never endured the horrors of what your family went through. Truly horrifying .

Relatives on my mom's side talk about beatings and threats by Greeks if they spoke Macedonian.

[julie]

thank you fatso, my family was but one of many.
It was awful, if they spoke Greek and pretended to be Greek, they would not have endured what they did. Pride.

[George S.]

On my mothers side her great grandfather had his eyes poked out with a fork whil'st he was still alive & then they cut his head off.Other people had their genitals cut off & were mutilated especially the male member had their penis severed & put into their mouth.What horrible deaths they must have endured.Women & young girls were beaten & raped.Even young boys got raped.Whole villages where once were bustling with people were left like ghost towns.My mum said her father told her how there were people's heads everywhere on the ground & blood was everywhere.All this was done because a person was a macedonian.So much attrocities were committed & genocide on the macedonian people.

[Risto the Great]

Except from the forum of my work, I�ve never been in any Greek forum. Since I already live in Greece I don�t see the reason.
I�m here for two reasons:
-I�m a truthful Macedonian attracted by the name of the forum
-I�m very interested in the opinions of foreigners on Greece. Anything one tells me about his impressions on Greek people, travels in Greece, Greek books, history, music, films etc, I�m very interested to hear and I wouldn�t get bored even if it was 200 pages long (as long as it was written by him).

rosetta, guess what?
If you are indeed from Greece, you are the least qualified to understand what has happened in Greece. Not a single thought in your socially engineered (and retarded) country is allowed without giving due thought to the propaganda that has fueled the Greek national identity.

You are not a "truthful Macedonian". If you were, you would remember the time (20 years ago) when Macedonia didn't exist according to Greeks.

Can you help me mate? Does Greece have a province or periphery called Macedonia?

[Soldier of Macedon]

You’re kidding, right? This political party is the only one that aspires to represent this ethnicity.

Are you suggesting that if they don't vote for Vinozito they are not Macedonians?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Are you suggesting that if they don't vote for Vinozito they are not Macedonians?

Only, a mental case aka new Greek (1913) would use that to determine ethnicity.

You MUST always vote for the same party? Bolni luge ..

[Soldier of Macedon]

You're right, and I want to see if Rosetta falls within the same category, because if that is the propaganda line he is going to push here then he will be gone shortly.

[Mastika]

You�re kidding, right? This political party is the only one that aspires to represent this ethnicity.

Throughout this post you identify ethnicity with language or language of the ancestors. Some of the leaders of Rainbow Party (e.g. Dimitris Lithoxoou) are not Macedonians, some of the core members cannot speak the language, and their journal is in Greek. Some people from Polypotamos vote for Popular Orthodox Rally.
People who are more nationalist usually vote for New Democracy. Socialists attract the majority, having a �tolerant� policy. Communists and leftists don't believe much in the importance of ethnicity.

Interesting political analysis, however it can not be substituted for real demographic/anthropological analysis.

Yes, national identity is not defined only by language. It�s complicated, but which �target group� are you interested in?

Yes, I guess they must be Greek then. The fact that they all speak Macedonian and not Greek is a tell-tale sign of Greeks. There is a strong correlation between language and ethnicity. You would expect a Greek speaking family to identify as ethnic Greeks, would you not? Can the same not be expected for a Macedonian speaking family?

So, you�re an optimist and believe Polypotamos is a �M1� village. You�re not in Australia, are you? Why don�t you pay a visit there and listen for yourself? Take a silent walk on the streets, the square and the falls and listen to children playing in the schoolyard, young boys playing football, old people in cafes. You wouldn�t trust me. Why don�t you find out yourself?

What is there to find out? I know from a range of sources that only ethnic Macedonians live in Neret, and that they speak the Macedonian language quite well.

As for your part about trust, what is there to trust? You haven't actually made any direct statements, instead all you have done is to criticise the sources I have provide.

I�m afraid I don�t understand it. Do you want to know how we call the language in Greek? Do you want to know if I consider them Greeks? Be more clear.

No, I want you to tell me what the people speaking the Macedonian language living in Neret are called. This is very clear.

These people are not Greek, in the sense that they speak the Greek language as their mother tongue, nor to they observe Greek customs as one would expect from real ethnic Greeks. Any serious researcher would never consider them to be ethnic Greeks. So, Tell me Rosetta, what are they? (are they not ethnic Macedonians?)

[El Bre]

This whole thing about comparing the number of votes the Vinozhito Party gets with peoples ethnic conciousness is the biggest crock of propagandist bullcrap I have ever seen. That's like saying that, because the Green party of Canada gets 1% of the vote, that only 1% of Canadians care about environmental issues.