Due to the Emblem on Zito Prilep, Greek side forfeits woman's handball match

[Louis Riel]

Frank, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
We got bigger fish to fry mate. Your barking up the wrong tree with the wrong group of people.

Any eye for an eye does not leave the whole world blind....it leaves a world of cyclopses.(TAKE THAT GANDHI)

[fyrOM]

Who is the enemy? Turks? Albanians? Weren't your leaders sipping coffee with ethnic Albanian extremists from Macedonia last year? I wonder if Dora and Ahmeti were speaking Greek, Albanian, or Arvanite, lol.

Any eye for an eye does not leave the whole world blind....it leaves a world of cyclopses.(TAKE THAT GANDHI)

Excellent guys…anyone who is against Macedonia is the enemy…Macedonians like Crvenkovski and Co Albanians who say they want to break from Macedonia as apposed to those who say they want to stay in the Republic and anyone who denies our existence be they Greek Bulgarian ect.

[Voltron]

Really? Who are the bigger fish, and who is 'we'? You're not still dreaming about an anti-Islam union between Macedonians and Greeks, are you? Who is the enemy? Turks? Albanians? Weren't your leaders sipping coffee with ethnic Albanian extremists from Macedonia last year? I wonder if Dora and Ahmeti were speaking Greek, Albanian, or Arvanite, lol.

Bigger Fish: Globalization, Capitalism, Greed, Credit Agencies, Liberalism, Multiculturism, Break down and dumming down of people and yes of course Islam is definitly on the list.

I would really like to see a source of this accusation regarding sipping coffee with Albanian extremists.

Seems to me you are perfectly complacent in having bad relations with Greeks. That is your problem though and you should not try to stop others from seeing a more positive alternative.

[Frank]

Frank, you're the last person that should be giving advice on behaviour, approach or dialogue. Macedonians don't need to lower themselves to the level of their detractors to get the message across.

I don't wish dialogue with our Neighbours that is my point, were you to ask Israeli's what they think or care of the pressing issues of the World unless it involves them, Macedonians need to think like that and be selfless, and hard-line to the core anyone who doesn't support Macedonia is our enemy, everyone.

And SOM you really have taken a few side swipes at me in recent weeks what type of character assessment are you making of mr with such a broad statements. Then you argue that dialogue with the Greek State is wrong but we are to have communication with Greeks on a personal basis

No way to both

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bigger Fish: Globalization, Capitalism, Greed, Credit Agencies, Liberalism, Multiculturism.....

We won't be frying those fish together sunshine, snap out of that delusion. I am interesting in supporting the Macedonian Cause, first and foremost.

Break down and dumming down of people........

Damn, you're against that!? Why didn't you say that amigo, go and write a letter to your government so they can stop dumbing people down with their racist propaganda against minorities. Watching a group of Macedonians, Albanians, Vlachs and whatever else pretending to be more Greek than the real Greeks is beyond pathetic.

......and yes of course Islam is definitly on the list.

Of course it is commando

I would really like to see a source of this accusation regarding sipping coffee with Albanian extremists.

It was actually more than a year ago, but relatively recent nonetheless. Ali Ahmeti is an extremist from the 2000/2001 conflict in Macedonia, and Vlakoyanni did meet with him. Are you denying these facts? Google is your friend, do some research, you appear to be severely uninformed.

Seems to me you are perfectly complacent in having bad relations with Greeks. That is your problem though and you should not try to stop others from seeing a more positive alternative.

That is a moronic and misleading statement. Keep making them and you will be shown the door. I have plenty of good Greek friends, in fact, I welcome friendship from anybody that isn't anti-Macedonian or racist. If this number is little, then it is more a reflection on the attitude of many among your own people than my acceptance of Greeks.

By the way, the Arvanite swipe was about Dora, not about Greeks in general. Have another frappe and relax.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;88591]

It was actually more than a year ago, but relatively recent nonetheless. Ali Ahmeti is an extremist from the 2000/2001 conflict in Macedonia, and Vlakoyanni did meet with him. Are you denying these facts? Google is your friend, do some research, you appear to be severely uninformed.

I know all about Google, you know nothing of Greek politics or its foreign policy regarding Albanians.

That is a moronic and misleading statement. Keep making them and you will be shown the door. I have plenty of good Greek friends, in fact, I welcome friendship from anybody that isn't anti-Macedonian or racist. If this number is little, then it is more a reflection on the attitude of many among your own people than my acceptance of Greeks.

I can only wonder what type of Greeks they are. If they can read half the stuff you post and still be your friends than they are the most pathetic stockholm syndrome sufferers that have walked the face of this planet. Since day 1, I have shown restraint and courtesy in this forum. I will continue to do so.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Anyone who doesn't support Macedonia is our enemy, everyone.

Then you argue that dialogue with the Greek State is wrong but we are to have communication with Greeks on a personal basis

I don't support discussions pertaining to the Macedonian identity, not with Greece or any other state. That doesn't mean that all communication needs to cease though, nor does diplomacy need to be equated with capitulation. It is the politics of the Greek state and those that support it who are the enemy against Macedonians, and not Greeks in general.

Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt. - Sun-Tzu, The Art of War.

And SOM you really have taken a few side swipes at me in recent weeks what type of character assessment are you making with such a broad statements.

Really Frank? Care to elaborate of these apparent 'swipes'? That way I can respond with the reasons why I made each comment. Where would you like to start? Your inability to comply with a simple rule on the forum? Your suggestion to have Macedonians mirror the behaviour of Greek racists by disregarding the latter based purely on their ethnicity?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I know all about Google........

I somehow doubt that.

.......you know nothing of Greek politics or its foreign policy regarding Albanians.

Are you unable to accept what I stated as fact? No suprise.

I can only wonder what type of Greeks they are. If they can read half the stuff you post and still be your friends than they are the most pathetic stockholm syndrome sufferers that have walked the face of this planet.

You know what Voltron, back some years ago when I first started posting on the internet, I was more 'liberal' with my terminology against Greeks. Most of the comments were as a result of some stupid argument with a Greek that spiralled out of control and into the realm of insults, others were immature, and I admit that. However, as time went by I changed my tone, because I had my Greek friends in mind, and did not feel it was right to indirectly insult them with a generalised comment for the sake of retaliating against some deluded racist.

These days, I am specific with my comments. I would never insult Greeks in the general sense nor would I deny their existence (although I would question their quantity), instead I aim for individuals or groups that are anti-Macedonian and racist. Isn't it I who is indirectly sticking up for people like you against Macedonians who don't want to give you the time of day? Some Macedonians dislike me for this, but it doesn't bother me, as I know what is right and fair. I am not going to hate someone or someone's identity just because of their ethnic background.

By the way, you don't have to worry about the Greekness of my friends, buddy, they are Greek and proud, and they accept the existence of Macedonians. Do they agree with all of my perceptions about history? No, and that has never been a requirement for our friendship. Sorry to burst your bubble, I am not nearly as 'anti-Greek' as you make me out to be.

If I have been (according to you), refer me to what I have said that insults the Greeks collectively.

Since day 1, I have shown restraint and courtesy in this forum. I will continue to do so.

I couldn't give a shit about your 'restraint', the mere fact that you have to 'restrain' yourself here is an insult, which indicates that deep down, you are unable to accept the Macedonian people and their identity. You wouldn't be able to hold a candle to my mates, neither as a Greek, or a human.

[Voltron]

I couldn't give a shit about your 'restraint', the mere fact that you have to 'restrain' yourself here is an insult, which indicates that deep down, you are unable to accept the Macedonian people and their identity. You wouldn't be able to hold a candle to my mates, neither as a Greek, or a human.

Restraint against attacks, doesnt mean I have an uncontrollable desire to hate Macedonians. Stop twisting my words around. "Neither as a Greek or Human". Great.

[Moon Tiki]

Really? Who are the bigger fish, and who is 'we'? You're not still dreaming about an anti-Islam union between Macedonians and Greeks, are you? Who is the enemy? Turks? Albanians? Weren't your leaders sipping coffee with ethnic Albanian extremists from Macedonia last year? I wonder if Dora and Ahmeti were speaking Greek, Albanian, or Arvanite, lol.

Αύριο, Παρασκευή 15 Ιουνίου 2007 και ώρα 14:00, η Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών, κα Ντόρα Μπακογιάννη, θα δεχθεί, κατόπιν αιτήματός του, τον κ. Ali Ahmeti, Πρόεδρο του κόμματος DUI της ΠΓΔΜ, ο οποίος θα βρίσκεται στην Αθήνα, στο πλαίσιο της συμμετοχής του σε διημερίδα που διοργανώνει το ερευνητικό κέντρο “Project on Ethnic Relations”, με θέμα «Τα Βαλκάνια ως παράγων σταθερότητας και ασφάλειας στην Ευρώπη».
(Google translation)
Tomorrow, Friday, June 15, 2007 at 14:00, Foreign Minister Ms. Dora Bakoyannis will receive, on his request, Mr Ali Ahmeti, President of DUI Party of Macedonia, who is in Athens in participation in a workshop organized by the Research Center "Project on Ethnic Relations", on "The Balkans as a factor of stability and security in Europe. "

Is that bad or weird? (I found it rather nornal). Isn't Ahmeti a political leader in your country, leader of a party of about 11-12%?
Are you saying Bakoyianni is an Arvanite? Isn't she... Cretan?

[Frank]

Everyday Greeks mmmmm everyday Greeks, take your experiences outside of professional life and convince us all that your average Greek doesn't feel and have the same prejudices as official Athens, for
Christ sake an entire generation has the mindset that it is quite normal to know their Neighbours by the capital city of the Nation.

I dont have any desire to not want our Neighbours to even breathe I do it effortlessly every Macedonian patriot should fell the same and find strength in their Own

As long as our Neighbours deny our existence the Forum rule of repecting the space of members which I am assuming you are eluding too I aint going to award to farken Greeks or Albanians

In my leaving breathing life I am NOTHING like Greeks I am guarded when I meet one they have never surprised. So it leaves me with this dilemma should I leave this Forum and my friends and you can have your sweet dialogue with Greeks

I guess, so goodbye to all I have meet

[makedonche]

Everyday Greeks mmmmm everyday Greeks, take your experiences outside of professional life and convince us all that your average Greek doesn't feel and have the same prejudices as official Athens, for
Christ sake an entire generation has the mindset that it is quite normal to know their Neighbours by the capital city of the Nation.

I dont have any desire to not want our Neighbours to even breathe I do it effortlessly every Macedonian patriot should fell the same and find strength in their Own

As long as our Neighbours deny our existence the Forum rule of repecting the space of members which I am assuming you are eluding too I aint going to award to farken Greeks or Albanians

In my leaving breathing life I am NOTHING like Greeks I am guarded when I meet one they have never surprised. So it leaves me with this dilemma should I leave this Forum and my friends and you can have your sweet dialogue with Greeks

I guess, so goodbye to all I have meet

Frank
Nemoi taka! We need all the Macedonians we can get on here, this is our place of truth and discovery there is no need to leave because you have been asked to comply with rules, worse still there is no need to leave because you have been asked to be civil to Greeks - that is our way of proving we are better than them and not beneath them! Let them go on their merry racist way spreading all the propoganda they like, it won't change the truth - which is what we are here to advocate, leaving the forum chalks up another victory for those you despise, staying here and voicing your opinion and upholding the truth keeps them in their place! Te molam, nemoi da begash ot tooka!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Restraint against attacks, doesnt mean I have an uncontrollable desire to hate Macedonians.

Your restraint on that point is noted, the same way you should note that over 90% of the Greeks that have visited this forum have been racists. This has naturally resulted in Macedonians being suspicious of new Greek members, but that doesn't mean that you cannot establish mutually respectful dialogue.

"Neither as a Greek or Human". Great.

Based on your previous comments and your insults towards my friends. Next time watch what you say if you don't wish for it be interpreted in a way other than you intended.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Isn't Ahmeti a political leader in your country, leader of a party of about 11-12%? Are you saying Bakoyianni is an Arvanite? Isn't she... Cretan?

Yes he is, but he is also an extremist who committed war crimes in Macedonia during 2001. The fact that he is a free man in Macedonia today is a result of the incompetence of Macedonian governments and pressure from the West. Both Macedonian and Greek politicians have shown themselves to be quite moronic for dealing with such types.

Read up on him, if you aren't sure who he is and how he is perceived.

Who knows what Vlakoyani is.

[fyrOM]

As long as our Neighbours deny our existence the Forum rule of repecting the space of members which I am assuming you are eluding too I aint going to award to farken Greeks or Albanians

In my leaving breathing life I am NOTHING like Greeks I am guarded when I meet one they have never surprised. So it leaves me with this dilemma should I leave this Forum and my friends and you can have your sweet dialogue with Greeks

I guess, so goodbye to all I have meet

Frank its your choice…as it always is….but consider for a moment who is this site for and the reason why to allow non Macedonians on becomes clear.

You and I know we are Macedonians. There is nothing anyone can say to make us think we are not Macedonian but there are many who are not sure…how many times have you heard granddad or great granddad spoke this other language which some people call the local language but it wasn’t Greek but I’m Greek but Id like to find out more about this local language…or those who have nothing to do with Macedonia or Greece but just want to find out. There is a lot of interest in Macedonia and Macedonian things…just look at the thread of foreigners singing Macedonian songs in Macedonian…and with this thirst for information people will go looking.

As you know there is a lot of propaganda on the net relating to Macedonia and could easily mislead people as to how they think of Macedonia. Naturally people aren’t that stupid and realise propaganda exists on the net but determining which is which is sometimes not easy. A name like Macedonian Truth Organisation stands out well above all the other sites simply because of its name and will undoubtedly draw people to it expecting to find the truth.

A common trait about people is how we try to workout what is the truth. We seek as much information as we can because we realise one person perspective may not be accurate or even complete or a lie they just believed from someone else or in the worst case a lie they are deliberately spreading for some personal gain. Simply presenting here what Macedonians consider to be the truth and the Greeks doing the same on their own website leaves people to wade through the competing claims trying to work out the truth from propaganda. If we see ourselves as here to spread the truth then we need to be more convincing than just spouting a bunch of facts like a history book even if it really is the truth.

To counter a lie you first need to know it and to know it you first need to hear it. Sometimes its just people testing out their own concept of the truth and their own beliefs…either way to be able to answer the what about this you need to know the this first. Some of the non Macedonians have made some negative claims on this site…and this sometimes may not make you happy…but the mods are good and don’t allow blatant propaganda instead encouraging logical debate. This to and fro draws out the truth from the points being raised and much like when deciding on which product to buy we love to read the blogs where comparisons have been made and various claims tested because it already takes into account the various competing claims and makes it easier for the reader to make sense of a wide topic with multitudes of facts. Just for a moment think of the simple decision of which TV to buy…plasma lcd led…is 100hz true motion what does this even mean…the viewing angle…is having quad color really better than the tri color we are used to or is this just a gimmick…ect. What’s real what’s not.

We Macedonians for a long time have been at a disadvantage of being outnumbered and out gunned so using force to assert our rights has not always been an option and at times we have faced desperate moments yet here we still are…because of our brains and wit…and if we are to transverse the currant battle for identity we again need to use our brains and wit…the truth is on our side how we covey it will make people believe it or not.