Macedonian National Anthem

[Simply Macedonian]

Well I believe an anthem represents a nation..and our nation's roots are not just from the beginning of the 1900's. This anthem was written in the 1940's..and was based on the history that was promoted at the time..It is a beautiful anthem, but we now know that Alexander and Filip etc.. are a very important part of our history. What is wrong with promoting all of our heroes..not just the ones in the last 110 years?

[julie]

I like the national anthem and I dont want it changed.

[Jankovska]

I agree with Julie- Philip, Aleksandar were not fighting za svoite pravdini but brought mnogu nepravdini to many people.

[julie]

I need to think about that one.
It would change the anthem , as Makedontsite se borat za svoite pravini , was not so much attributed in the time of Filip and Alexander
If we were to do that then Chento would need to be included too.

[Simply Macedonian]

Macedonian National Anthem

In addition to Gotse Delchev, Pitu Guli, Dame Gruev and Jane Sandanski, there should be a line mentioning, Alexander, Filip, Samuil, and Kiril and Metodij.
I know it would be hard to pass with the Albanian minority, who seem to control everything in the Macedonian parliament, the pro-Greek SDSM, and the pro-Greek west...but it's food for thought.

[aleksandrov]

I don't believe my response indicated that I was ignorant of those facts, instead, I was making reference to their works that contain information regarding dialects from all over Macedonia, including the home villages of Delcev (Kukush), Gruev (Smilevo) and Misirkov (Postol).

Sorry, I didn't think of that possibility when I read your original post. In any case, I am not sure how extensive the Miladinovci and Shapkarev were in their research of Macedonian dialects. I suppose it's worth looking into.

I would say that most, if not all of those documents, flags, etc come after the Exarchate was created and gained influence in Macedonia's religious and educational institutions.

I would have to check whether 'svoboda' was used in the Kresna Uprising period, when the Exarchate influence wasn't so strong. In any case, we should always keep in mind that a key reason why the Exarchate was able to influence Macedonians more than the Serbian and Greek patriarchies was that the language it used was very close to the Macedonian dialects. And that should be of no surprise if you look at the extent to which Macedonian (by ancestry) intellectuals participated in the creation of the modern Bulgarian state and the fact that the language used by the Exarchate was meant to be a development of what Kliment and Naum taught in Ohrid.

I don't doubt it, but it would only be a small handful of dialects found in the peripheral areas of eastern Macedonia. Kje (or ke) is the norm in the overwhelming majority of Macedonian dialects.

You may be right, but a reference to some empirical research could clear things up.

What is critical to note in the context of this anthem and the literary language is that ќ (for "kj') is one of the modern, post-WWII Macedonian introductions to the Cyrillic alphabet. Before that, this standard Cyrillic letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Щ (pronounced as "scha" in Cyrillic generally or "shta" in modern Bulgarian) was used in written, albeit not codified, Macedonian. The exclusion of that letter from the Macedonian Cyrillic alphabet may well have had an influence on how Macedonian dialects subsequently evolved.

I know a lot of people from the Prilep and Struga regions who use 'che' ('че'), which is kind of between "kje" and "sche". Some dialects in north-western Macedonia use "kja", which is somewhere between "kje" and "scha".

At a more general level, let's not forget that this anthem was used by Macedonian partisans and ASNOM delegates who fought against Bulgarian domination and for a Macedonian national state within the borders of Yugoslavia, after almost four decades of Serbian education and Bulgarian Exarchate absence. The majority of them were not from peripheral areas of eastern Macedonia, yet it doesn't appear to have sounded foreign to them.

[Risto the Great]

vsichko is quite common in my local dialect.
When I have Macedonians from the Republic telling me they think I speak some kind of Bulgarian ... I don't know whether to laugh, cry or beat the shit out of them. Such ignorance.

[aleksandrov]

It was sung in different dialects by different people around Macedonia. If a song is to be national anthem then it must be in the literary language.

If Kolishevski & Co. didn't decide to give it away to the Bulgarians and Bugaromani 64 years ago, it would probably have been adapted to the modern Macedonian literary language.

[Prolet]

SOM, Maknews has often criticized us in the past for not speaking our language properly, he uses words like Oushche and he claims that his grand father taught him how to speak the original language. The word Vsicko was mentioned above, i know Macedonians from Pirinska Makedonija seem to use that word i heard Ivan Gargavelov say it once maybe TM can give us a little more feedback since he has links to Pirinska Makedonija.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Miladinovci were from Ohrid and Shapkarev from Struga.

I don't believe my response indicated that I was ignorant of those facts, instead, I was making reference to their works that contain information regarding dialects from all over Macedonia, including the home villages of Delcev (Kukush), Gruev (Smilevo) and Misirkov (Postol).

'Svoboda' can be found in various VMRO documents, on revolutionary flags, badges and other artifacts.

I would say that most, if not all of those documents, flags, etc come after the Exarchate was created and gained influence in Macedonia's religious and educational institutions.

I am not sure whether and to what extent "shte" was used in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol, but I do recall from my studies of the history of the Macedonian language in the 1990s that it has had a presence in various Macedonian dialects - more so in the early part of the 20th century than today.

I don't doubt it, but it would only be a small handful of dialects found in the peripheral areas of eastern Macedonia. Kje (or ke) is the norm in the overwhelming majority of Macedonian dialects.

However, we should not forget that the Bulgarian language itself originates from the medieval Macedonian literary language taught by Naum and Kliment.

I agree completely.

In trying to develop a new Macedonian literary language, Misirkov didn't quite focus on elements that were most common throughout Macedonia, but on 'central' Macedonian dialects and on those elements that were as far from Bulgarian (and to a lesser extent Serbian) as possible. Although that may have served the purpose of reducing Bulgarian and Serbian political influences at the time, I am not comfortable with relinquishing shared elements of Macedonian dialects to Bulgarian and Serbian, given that both of those languages have Macedonian literary origins.

I don't think Misirkov was too far off the mark, but I agree with you where it concerns the unnecessary exclusion of certain elements in our language for the sake of not appearing close to Bulgarian and Serbian.

[Mastika]

And what would that official literary language have been in the 1920s, when Izgrej Zora was written?

It was sung in different dialects by different people around Macedonia. If a song is to be national anthem then it must be in the literary language.

[aleksandrov]

Is it Koneski's or Kolishevski's version of a Macedonian literary language?

I don't think that Kolishevski is known for any linguistic endeavors. Sure, he had an influence over the general direction Koneski had to take (as far away from "Bulgarian" as possible), but there is nobody that has had more formal influence on the modern Macedonian literary language than Koneski.

I'm not sure that people in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol used words such as svoboda instead of sloboda, or shte instead of kje,..

checking the works of the Miladinovci and Shapkarev would be a good confirmation.

Miladinovci were from Ohrid and Shapkarev from Struga.

'Svoboda' can be found in various VMRO documents, on revolutionary flags, badges and other artifacts.

I am not sure whether and to what extent "shte" was used in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol, but I do recall from my studies of the history of the Macedonian language in the 1990s that it has had a presence in various Macedonian dialects - more so in the early part of the 20th century than today.

In any case, there is no doubt that the formal Bulgarian literary language had substantial influence on how Macedonians wrote in the early 20th century, given that no formal Macedonian literary language was taught at the time and that most of the Macedonian revolutionaries and intellectuals from the Ilinden period were educated in Exarchate schools. However, we should not forget that the Bulgarian language itself originates from the medieval Macedonian literary language taught by Naum and Kliment.

It still looks Macedonian, I wouldn't consider it 'Bulgarian' either. Those words though, together with vsicki and iz aren't common in many Macedonian dialects, whereas the form of Macedonian used by Misirkov is much more of common to other Macedonian dialects.

In trying to develop a new Macedonian literary language, Misirkov didn't quite focus on elements that were most common throughout Macedonia, but on 'central' Macedonian dialects and on those elements that were as far from Bulgarian (and to a lesser extent Serbian) as possible. Although that may have served the purpose of reducing Bulgarian and Serbian political influences at the time, I am not comfortable with relinquishing shared elements of Macedonian dialects to Bulgarian and Serbian, given that both of those languages have Macedonian literary origins.

I agree, and it should be considered, so long as it is written in a form or dialect more common to all of the Macedonian dialects (including those of the Macedonian parts in neighbouring states).

I would leave any analysis of the extent to which the text of Izgrej Zora is common to 'all' Macedonian dialects to dedicated linguists. However, I note that all of the Macedonian dialects have evolved over the past 100 years, with direct and indirect influences from the formal Bulgarian, Serbian and Macedonian literary languages, all of which are relatively new in their present forms.

[aleksandrov]

If any song is to be the national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia then it must be written in the literary language and use official terminology, not a dialect.

And what would that official literary language have been in the 1920s, when Izgrej Zora was written?

[Mastika]

If any song is to be the national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia then it must be written in the literary language and use official terminology, not a dialect.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes, it (or at least the version of it that we know today) was written in a pre-Koneski Macedonian dialect that seems closer to today's official Bulgarian language than the Kolishevski version of the Macedonian literary language does......

Is it Koneski's or Kolishevski's version of a Macedonian literary language?

..........but that doesn't make it any more 'Bulgarian' than the dialects used by Delchev, Gruev or even Misirkov and the Macedonians in Pirin and Egej are 'Bulgarian'.

I'm not sure that people in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol used words such as svoboda instead of sloboda, or shte instead of kje, checking the works of the Miladinovci and Shapkarev would be a good confirmation. It still looks Macedonian, I wouldn't consider it 'Bulgarian' either. Those words though, together with vsicki and iz aren't common in many Macedonian dialects, whereas the form of Macedonian used by Misirkov is much more common to other Macedonian dialects.

"Izgrej Zora" is a more appropriate anthem for a Macedonian nation that is still to be liberated.

I agree, and it should be considered, so long as it is written in a form or dialect more common to all of the Macedonian dialects (including those of the Macedonian parts in neighbouring states).