Greeks, seriously.

[Giorikas]

Well done again. We agree.
I said to you we cannot even prove the Slavic language of the Macedonians for 300 years prior to Kiril & Metodi, much less anything else further back in time. You almost agree but are left with some of that "wishful thinking" that seems to permeate the modern Greek's mind.

Notwithstanding this, if I were transported back in time to find out the modern Greek language was exactly the same as Ancient Macedonian. After killing myself, I would come back on this forum as a ghost and write .... "stiff shit, what about 1500 years of documented proof that the dominant language of the Macedonians was a Slavic one? "

I never disagreed. My guess is that after frequenting these forums so many years you are doing exactly what you accuse Greeks of. You are 'pre-programmed' and assume things about how Greeks will react. That's wrong.
The only thing I said (I repeat) is that we have no proof that ancient Macedonian existed. That naturally means we have no proof that it did not exist either. You make a big fuss about that. And for crying out loud, I understood always what the punchline was going to be when you introduced Slavic languages and I always found it irrelevant. And I still do. It is as irrelevant as me saying: We know that Thrak and Etruskian (both non existing now) existed because we found inscripitions in those languages. So that proves that ancient Macedonian (of which we found no inscriptions) did not exist because we did not find written evidence ? Of course not. (read back a few times if you have difficulties to understand that). It should make us wonder though and ask the question why Macedonian was not recorded and those 2 were (both using Greek alfabet partly) but that's about the only thing we can say. It is as irrelevant for this discussian as Slavic languages.

I have also not heard a plausible explanation (the 'French at the Russian court' equals 'Greek / Hellenic at the Macedonian court' theory you unsucessfully introduced is no explanation either) why a dominant power would not introduce their language elsewhere instead of the other way around. Again, going back to your 'French at the Russian court example'; while Russian aristocrats spoke French too, they spread only Russian to territories that fell under Russian influence. No French.

Not only did Macedonians not introduce their own language which would be the most logical thing, it mysteriously disappeared sometime (when and why we don't know either), they then spread the language of the civilization you claim they beat in battle.
Then you would say that Greek happened to be the 'lingua franca' which is not true either. That happened primarily because they introduced and spread the Greek language (regardless whether you find Hellenic or Koine a more accurate description). No Macedonian victories would have meant no spread of Hellinism and that would have meant no spread of the Greek language. It's no coincidence Greek became the 'lingua franca'

Oh, and please don't twist my words. I have never claimed that modern Greek is exactly the same ancient Macedonian. Modern Greek is the end result of Greek / Hellenic languages. Languages evolve. I consider the ancient Macedonian language to be one of those Hellenic languages / dialects before a standardisation took place that we call Koine.

[Risto the Great]

Spolaiti ? You were told about this word already . Of course a Russian wont understand it, it comes the Greek ' Eis polla eti '
In the near future i will tell you from where you got the word ' praish '
from , like as in sho praish instead of Kakosi.

Wow, thanks.
I know modern Greeks do not use "Eis polla eti". Perhaps the Pontians used the term for "thank you"? Ask your family.

spasiba

[Risto the Great]

Giorikas, it seems that both of us agree that there is no proof of the Ancient Macedonian language.
It is obvious you have avoided the example I gave about the Slavic language of the Macedonians 300 years before it was codified (if we follow modern historians). It is obvious you feel a language had to be documented before you accept that it exists.

I am very confident that it will be proven beyond doubt that Alexander did not spread the Koine language. That it was already in place before he arrived in Asia Minor and there was no point inflicting a new language on the subjugated masses, particularly one which was not even codified. I am sure you have seen historical discussions about this. A very different scenario from the Russian argument I put forward.

Calling "some" Thracian and Etruscan texts as "Greek alfabet" is optimistic. Are you calling them Greeks (I don't think so, but anything is possible with you people) or inferring that they merely wrote their languages in Greek? Show me your texts out of curiosity please. Since limited words of each of these languages have been found, I will suggest you are wearing those Hellenic coloured glasses again.

Here is a suggestion, read the first post of this entire thread and comment on it with relevance.

[Daskalot]

Spolaiti ? You were told about this word already . Of course a Russian wont understand it, it comes the Greek ' Eis polla eti '
In the near future i will tell you from where you got the word ' praish '
from , like as in sho praish instead of Kakosi.

Please enlighten us, may I enlighten you aswell?

[Pelister]

Giorikas,

Why don't you want to talk about the Slavic language in Macedonia ? Why is it a "nothing"?

Slavic is one of the "barbarian languages" of the ancient world - outside Greek in Athens and Latin in Rome.

So, why not talk about this barbarian language, spoken by the native Macedonians ?

[Dejan]

In the near future i will tell you from where you got the word ' praish ' from , like as in sho praish instead of Kakosi.

Before you embarrass yourself with a translation for 'praish', i thought you might like to know that this is a slang word for the original word. Now, carry on...

[Giorikas]

Giorikas,

Why don't you want to talk about the Slavic language in Macedonia ? Why is it a "nothing"?

Slavic is one of the "barbarian languages" of the ancient world - outside Greek in Athens and Latin in Rome.

So, why not talk about this barbarian language, spoken by the native Macedonians ?

Hello Pelister,

I know very little of Slavic languages, but more importantly, as I keep reminding Risto the Great of, it is irrelevant (in this context). Now the discussion what language is spoken in Macedonia and outside of Macedonia (like Greece) in 2008 by those who identify themselves as Macedonians is another one. That must be a Slavic language. But the question, whether there was a ancient Macedonian language is unrelated to the question we were dealing with.

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, it seems that both of us agree that there is no proof of the Ancient Macedonian language.
It is obvious you have avoided the example I gave about the Slavic language of the Macedonians 300 years before it was codified (if we follow modern historians). It is obvious you feel a language had to be documented before you accept that it exists.

I am very confident that it will be proven beyond doubt that Alexander did not spread the Koine language. That it was already in place before he arrived in Asia Minor and there was no point inflicting a new language on the subjugated masses, particularly one which was not even codified. I am sure you have seen historical discussions about this. A very different scenario from the Russian argument I put forward.

Calling "some" Thracian and Etruscan texts as "Greek alfabet" is optimistic. Are you calling them Greeks (I don't think so, but anything is possible with you people) or inferring that they merely wrote their languages in Greek? Show me your texts out of curiosity please. Since limited words of each of these languages have been found, I will suggest you are wearing those Hellenic coloured glasses again.

Here is a suggestion, read the first post of this entire thread and comment on it with relevance.

Indeed we agree on your first point.

I avoided nothing. I have explained many times why I found it useless to discuss something irrelevant. And still you don't get the point. I did not say it had to be documented to be validated and that therefore I dismissed the possibility that ancient Macedonian existed. I said, no written proof, no spoken proof, no knowledge when it appeared and when it disappeared means we can not assume it existed. Theoretically it could have existed (and I never said differently) but for me (must be my illogical coloured Greek glasses) it is very illogical. A half dozen of quotes (only related to Alexander the Great) is no proof of the existence of a language.

In fact you avoided my other questions which no doubt you hope I will forget. Double standards?

Now you hope that something will be unproven, namely that Macedonians spread Greek Koine, a language Macedonians introduced as the standard Greek. (strange thing for non Greek speakers eh, to standardise other languages) 'Hope dies last' we said. Theories again. Please keep me updated on the groundbreaking developments ...

Thrak and Etruskian ... I hope you understand that this was merely an example. I know you seem to know that all Greeks feel superior, but you're missing the point by far. I tried to be accurate and I don't claim those languages as in any way related to Greek. In fact that was the point I made. Even if apparently they used letters from the Greek script, they managed to write, something that a Great civilization as the Macedonians could apparently not. The Thrak and Etruskia languages (not spoken today) were not Greek. We have the proof.

I don't feel I have to prove you anything since you seem as Great person not to be able to answer my very elementary questions about Macedonians even after being on these forums for a long time. But nevertheless here is something for the time being to keep you busy:

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/language.html

I hope that the use of Wikipedia will not lead to my banning here since we can say that the existence of a thrak language is not a 'hot' topic. Otherwise let me know. Note the ring with inscriptions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

[slovenec zrinski]

praish...could it be related to praviti? (cro-srb-bos/"make" or "do" and in slovenian "to say")

[osiris]

In the near future i will tell you from where you got the word ' praish '
from , like as in sho praish instead of Kakosi.

dont bother svoliani here is the answer all the way from slovenia via sweden

praish...could it be related to praviti? (cro-srb-bos/"make" or "do" and in slovenian "to say")

[slovenec zrinski]

Together we can fend of stupidity osiris

[Risto the Great]

Giorikas, what do you base your belief of Alexander's spread of the Koine language on?

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, what do you base your belief of Alexander's spread of the Koine language on?

I base it upon the facts. Facts show that Koine Greek (please do not try to present Koine as a separate language) was spread by Alexander. Nothing indicates that that was the case (and certainly to that extent) before Alexander. That is not just a belief. The evidence is abundant. We can take Egypt as example where the evidence is in front of your nose. Have you been there and visited museums? I have and I can tell you that it is impossible to miss the Greek language and civilization. How do you think it is that we know of a city called Tripoli in Lybia ? Ever heard of the Dekapolis in the Middle East?

Please check this wikipedia link (if I'm still allowed but it's not a 'hot' topic so ..) and read about these 10 (deka as we still say in Christian Turkish) cities that were founded between the death of Alexander the Great and the Roman conquests who were Hellinistic by nature, founded by Greek colonists until the Hellenic influence faded away eventually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis

Closer to home: Have you been to Vergina? It is impossible to miss the Greek language, symbols (in short civilization) etc that he supposidly 'self imposed'.

Even closer to home, The Republic of Macedonia: what is the only language you can see on any Macedonian finding from Alexander's era? More interestingly, what is the only language you can find before Alexander's era? And what does that tell you? You must have a huge stone in front of you blocking your view not to see all that, something like the stone in front of your Government building with the language of his 'enemies' ...

[Metodija]

I base it upon the facts. Facts show that Koine Greek (please do not try to present Koine as a separate language) was spread by Alexander. Nothing indicates that that was the case (and certainly to that extent) before Alexander. That is not just a belief. The evidence is abundant. We can take Egypt as example where the evidence is in front of your nose. Have you been there and visited museums? I have and I can tell you that it is impossible to miss the Greek language and civilization. How do you think it is that we know of a city called Tripoli in Lybia ? Ever heard of the Dekapolis in the Middle East?

Please check this wikipedia link (if I'm still allowed but it's not a 'hot' topic so ..) and read about these 10 (deka as we still say in Christian Turkish) cities that were founded between the death of Alexander the Great and the Roman conquests who were Hellinistic by nature, founded by Greek colonists until the Hellenic influence faded away eventually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis

Closer to home: Have you been to Vergina? It is impossible to miss the Greek language, symbols (in short civilization) etc that he supposidly 'self imposed'.

Even closer to home, The Republic of Macedonia: what is the only language you can see on any Macedonian finding from Alexander's era? More interestingly, what is the only language you can find before Alexander's era? And what does that tell you? You must have a huge stone in front of you blocking your view not to see all that, something like the stone in front of your Government building with the language of his 'enemies' ...

Bla bla bla...

Giorkakis, you are mixing a language with a alphabet. Take this post, I write it in English using the Latin alphabet. Does that make me English or Italian?
No of course not, I'm a Macedonian.

[Risto the Great]

Thanks Giorikas,
it appears place names gives you this warm feeling about Alexander spreading Greekness across the globe. Egypt is a good example. The Jews there forgot how to write and speak in their own language. They started to use the Phoenician derived alphabet you call Greek. They spoke Koine and felt no need to retain their native language in the Hellenistic era of Egypt. Do you really want to call modern Egyptians Greek because of this? If no, why then Macedonians or even ancient Macedonians for that matter?

When you went there, did you not see the Roman influence at all? Or is everything Greek to you? I am sure it is easy to say it is. It suits you. But you may well be confusing civilisation with "Greekness", again.

I think we should discuss Koine separately. But my research indicates it is merely a bastardised Attic language with Persian loan words amongst others.

what is the only language you can find before Alexander's era?

I humbly apologise for this. But you are right, we appear to see mostly Hellenic scripts before Alexander's era. But again, we saw the same thing 300 years before Kiril & Metodi's era, and yet we all know the Slavic races were dominant in the area of Macedonia and beyond for 300 years preceding the holy creation of the Cyrillic script. Does this mean the Slavic speaking Macedonians never existed prior to Kiril & Metodi. You have still failed to deal with this, even though the comparisons are compelling.