Greeks, seriously.

[Risto the Great]

AD, I don't deny anyone's right to self identify from a modern perspective.
Why are you so willing to abandon the rich history of your people and refer to them as Greeks when they never did? They were clearly proud East Romans or Romioi. You are using modern names for people that did not identify or relate with the modern Greek identity.

How could you call them Greeks when Greece had nothing to do with them?

Naturally, their offspring are Greek now I would imagine.

[Pelister]

Risto my South Ozzie mate.........lets get the facts correct. My mother's father was born in today's Turkey (asia minor) where 2 mil greeks previously lived. He was born in a coastal town that can still be seen from Lesbos, a few kilometres away. Its like living at at Cape Jervois and staring at Penneshaw on Kangaroo Island. He was an ethnic Greek. I have nothing to do with Greeks that moved to Greece-Macedonia. Most of the coastal Greeks got away as quick as they could to the nearest island they could find to avoid being slaughtered in 1922. The Greeks that got exchanged to Macedonia, correct me if I am wrong, predominately came from Constantinople and Pontus.

Risto, if I can accept your community, why do you deny the existance of Slav speaking Greeks, Greek speaking Greeks etc (excluding the Greek imports from asia minor) who lived in Macedonia and considered themselves part of the Greek nation.

How the Greeks name things is important - because its a basic process of history. So, they can be made to appear more "Greek" by todays standards than they ever were - if at all.

Why do Christian Turks have to be Greeks? Why does anyone belonging to the Greek Church, have to be a Greek?

All the possibilities of being Greek, are getting more numerous, and more creative by the decade. One imaginative possibility after another.

You take something imaginative - the idea of being a Greek, and find ways to bring it into the fold - into the modern Greek historic texture, which in itself is an imaginative possibility, i.e., we are ancient Greeks...etc.

But, the problem is that the Orthodox Turks are not a perfect fit into the modern Greek historic texture. Neither are the Pontians, nor the Kartvelians ... nor the Macedonians ... etc.

You must stress certain things about them, and neglect a whole lot of others.

So, you stress their faith - Orthodoxy. But attending the only Christian Church available to them at that time, i.e., Greek or Armenian Orthodox, doesn't make a Christian an ethnic Greek, nor an ethnic Armenian. We can see this in the Greek War of Independence, it was a Christian movement - not an ethnic movement.

The way you stress their religion, like it was a national symbol, is anachronistic.

What you Greeks don't realize is that the stage of alienating everything else about them, i.e., these Christian Turks and others, becomes a stronger force than the original purpose, i.e., to Hellenize.

The unintended by product - everything you don't want people to know about them - well, it becomes the duty of the Greek State to oppress it, remove it, deny it.

The Greek State in itself, has a very purposeful stake in dispossessing, robbing people - making sure they are "obedient" which explains why they never really trust their "citizens" loyalty.

There is no one better at rejecting their "own people" so to speak, than the Greeks. This is why the descendants of Christian Turk refugees have for the better part of a century, kept their mouths shut about who they are, where they come from, and whose land they now occupy. In fact, many of them felt uprooted from their traditional homelands in Anatolia, and some of the stories are quite tragic, but again, never told by the Greek State.

The Greek State has been "moving in on" the Christian Turks and others, ever since - unable to watch them slowly and hopefully lose their language, habits, culture - and hoping to God that these differences do not turn into some kind of organized sectarian divergence.

And we wonder why "Greeks" feel so bloody wounded every time someone scorns them.

[Alexander Downer]

I cant answer your very pointed question Risto. All I can say is they spoke Ellenika and their religion was Greek orthodox. The same can be said with your community growing up with the ethnic Macedonian culture. That is all you know and you just accept it. My very 1st posting attempted to delineate the two communities linked to Macedonia without compromising their beliefs by referring to each other in our languages Makendonski, Makedonas etc. Like I said, I hate the term Greek that was bestowed to us by the Romans. I am an Ellina and you are a Makedontsi. Ciao.

[Pelister]

I cant answer your very pointed question Risto. All I can say is they spoke Ellenika and their religion was Greek orthodox. The same can be said with your community growing up with the ethnic Macedonian culture. That is all you know and you just accept it. My very 1st posting attempted to delineate the two communities linked to Macedonia without compromising their beliefs by referring to each other in our languages Makendonski, Makedonas etc. Like I said, I hate the term Greek that was bestowed to us by the Romans. I am an Ellina and you are a Makedontsi. Ciao.

Yes, but Hellenikotita is an artificial word - and its designed to give an event, a situation, a place, a language , a "Greek character". It's one of those reigning symbols of authority produced by Greece that manipulates the complex social structure of societies, such as the society and habits of the Christian Turk.

It's sophistry and deception has been exposed by others though.

You just can't give a true account.

[Alexander Downer]

How the Greeks name things is important - because its a basic process of history. So, they can be made to appear more "Greek" by todays standards than they ever were - if at all.

Why do Christian Turks have to be Greeks? Why does anyone belonging to the Greek Church, have to be a Greek?

All the possibilities of being Greek, are getting more numerous, and more creative by the decade. One imaginative possibility after another.

You take something imaginative - the idea of being a Greek, and find ways to bring it into the fold - into the modern Greek historic texture, which in itself is an imaginative possibility, i.e., we are ancient Greeks...etc.

But, the problem is that the Orthodox Turks are not a perfect fit into the modern Greek historic texture. Neither are the Pontians, nor the Kartvelians ... nor the Macedonians ... etc.

You must stress certain things about them, and neglect a whole lot of others.

So, you stress their faith - Orthodoxy. But attending the only Christian Church available to them at that time, i.e., Greek or Armenian Orthodox, doesn't make a Christian an ethnic Greek, nor an ethnic Armenian. We can see this in the Greek War of Independence, it was a Christian movement - not an ethnic movement.

The way you stress their religion, like it was a national symbol, is anachronistic.

What you Greeks don't realize is that the stage of alienating everything else about them, i.e., these Christian Turks and others, becomes a stronger force than the original purpose, i.e., to Hellenize.

The unintended by product - everything you don't want people to know about them - well, it becomes the duty of the Greek State to oppress it, remove it, deny it.

The Greek State in itself, has a very purposeful stake in dispossessing, robbing people - making sure they are "obedient" which explains why they never really trust their "citizens" loyalty.

There is no one better at rejecting their "own people" so to speak, than the Greeks. This is why the descendants of Christian Turk refugees have for the better part of a century, kept their mouths shut about who they are, where they come from, and whose land they now occupy. In fact, many of them felt uprooted from their traditional homelands in Anatolia, and some of the stories are quite tragic, but again, never told by the Greek State.

The Greek State has been "moving in on" the Christian Turks and others, ever since - unable to watch them slowly and hopefully lose their language, habits, culture - and hoping to God that these differences do not turn into some kind of organized sectarian divergence.

And we wonder why "Greeks" feel so bloody wounded every time someone scorns them.

Pelister............its time you got off your high horse mate. I have not come to this forum to call you a derivative of a Bulgarian etc..........so why are you persisting with the notion of Christian Turks. You know exactly what it feels when you get called a Bulgarian by a Greek and Bulgarian. That’s just crap and poor form!!

[Pelister]

Your last comment proves your ignorance.

Because your State does refer to Macedonians as Bulgarians - it emphasizes things they may have in common, but never bothers to go into that much detail - it has the Bulgarian State working for them in that regard on a full time basis; for the very same reason the Greek State over emphasizes some aspects of the Christian Turks, such as their religion, as an indicator that they are ethnic Greeks, while neglecting everything else about them.

It's the flip side of the same coin.

The Greek State emphasizes and de-emphasizes aspects of various social bodies, all to one purpose, but never, I repeat never giving a fair and honest appraisal of them.

And at the end of the day, that is the truth of the matter.

[Risto the Great]

Pelister............its time you got off your high horse mate. I have not come to this forum to call you a derivative of a Bulgarian etc..........so why are you persisting with the notion of Christian Turks. You know exactly what it feels when you get called a Bulgarian by a Greek and Bulgarian. That’s just crap and poor form!!

I have tried to avoid that terminology because it always causes angst amongst our modern Greeks. But they were Christians that migrated from Turkey ... so grammatically it is correct. And I find it difficult calling them Greeks because I believe their history pre-dates much of modern Greece and deserves far more respect.

[Venom]

The fact of the matter remains, that the 'unwanted' Christians in Turkey were moved across to greece and then settled in the then freshly (and also illegally) annexed part of Macedonian also known as Egejska Makedonija or Aegean Macedonia.

It wasn't just Turks, but many other races too including Georgians and Armenians and others too. Then, everyone who stayed behind, not just the Macedonians but the Vlachs, the the Roma and many others were forced, brutally in many cases to forget their heritage and become these newly developed greece.

They were given a language, a history, a culture, a religion and everything else they needed.

If they did not want to be assimilated they were forced to, expelled, left of their own free will or in some cases killed.

This is what these people are, guaranteed. Your grandfather, Alex, was one of them. But the people of Macedonia were never, EVER Bulgarians. Do you see the big difference?

[osiris]

good question venom and the answer is yes.

there are greeks who understand and agree with us, unfortunately not enough. i find alki on maknews to be one of them. on a personal level in melbourne i have met greeks who genuinely dont subscribe to their fascist wannabee world view.

[Alexander Downer]

Venom, I'am not doubting for one minute what your saying didn't happen to these people. It is criminal. It is the same thing what happened to the Ellines in the two Islands that were given to Turkey (Imbros and Tenedos). They were given some security and special protection from the Lausanne Treaty but soon after, it all went pear shaped and the community is down to the very few hundreds and in Constantinople from 200,000 down to 2000. Unfortunately, they the cards that have been dealt to us. We can only move forward and it is up to the will of the general public and not the politicians.

A little true story.......One of my best friends has just been posted over in Cyprus via the Australian Federal Police to serve with the UN in the only village that has Greeks and Turks living together. It is in the green line. Last week they were invited to the Australian High Commission to meet the real Alexander Downer. FYI Risto, being a South Australian, this prick actually prompted me to use his name as my username because I could not believe what my mate said. He is supposedly leading a special envoy to facilitate a resolution on the Island. Well, at the meeting, he clearly demonstrated that he new nothing about the issues and was very proud of his high paying position. This is what Australia does, rewards the shit that has risen to the surface by giving them a high paying holiday. This Ex Poli isn’t going to solve the problem on the island. He is there to suck on some retzina and shove down(er) some yiros.

[Risto the Great]

A little true story.......One of my best friends has just been posted over in Cyprus via the Australian Federal Police to serve with the UN in the only village that has Greeks and Turks living together. It is in the green line. Last week they were invited to the Australian High Commission to meet the real Alexander Downer. FYI Risto, being a South Australian, this prick actually prompted me to use his name as my username because I could not believe what my mate said. He is supposedly leading a special envoy to facilitate a resolution on the Island. Well, at the meeting, he clearly demonstrated that he new nothing about the issues and was very proud of his high paying position. This is what Australia does, rewards the shit that has risen to the surface by giving them a high paying holiday. This Ex Poli isn’t going to solve the problem on the island. He is there to suck on some retzina and shove down(er) some yiros.

AD, this is all as expected.
Gareth Evans was doing the same shit with Macedonia a while back. Jobs for the boys. Probably Freemasons too I might add.

If you want to change your user name, let me know via pm.

[Вардарец]

Both Armenians and Kurds claim that 30k Armens and 30k Orthodox Kurds live in modern Greece, from the population transplantation.

[I of Macedon]

Both Armenians and Kurds claim that 30k Armens and 30k Orthodox Kurds live in modern Greece, from the population transplantation.

I wouldn't be suprised, as according to the population transfer maps 150 thousand Armenians were transfered (during the massive population transfers) from Turkey right on the borders of Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey.

In addition, 125 thousand Armenians were transfered to the USA from Turkey

[Giorikas]

Risto,

In 2008, what counts are passports. All the rest is something that is a big issue for you guys but not an issue in most countries. What you feel is your own business. Your people (which I believe that exist in Greece but not sure that they are what they claim) are Greeks, because the passports say so. End of the story. Soon they will not speak anything else then Greek.

We've been through this before, discussing it elsewhere. You play around with this 'etnicity' thing considering some to be Macedonians, even if they do not feel that themselves. So I repeat, I take all that with a pinch of salt. Your heroes identified 'on the record' with the Bulgarian cause in the Balkan wars. It's a salade Macédoine.

Your Grandmothers name is not the issue here, with all respect.

As far as your miracle is concerned, they tend to happen sometimes and I believe we are about to see them again. You know my opinion on your usage of the term Macedonians, I can not express it though because that will get me banned. You're right, I had to read that back a few times. They will be called whatever the outcome of the negotiations dictates how they will be called, regardless of what the country will be called. That might well be Macedonians, but not necessarily so. Please feel free to read back a few times if you have difficulties understanding this.

Now tell me please if you will why a Greek from Minor Asia according to your definition can not be a Greek. I find that interesting.

[Giorikas]

Exceptionally and for the last time I will reply to a message like that. It seems to me that I hit the nail on the head and described ... you. I undersatnd that must be painful and the way you react seems to me that you know deep down that I am right.

I consider an Albanian in that case more Macedonian then you if he speaks the language and lives there, regardless how long he set up camp there. He might be first generation and still be more Macedonian. I read many times that Macedonians (regardless whether they really are related to ancient Macedonians - I believe that your ex President went on the record saying that was NOT the case) are Macedonians on the basis of living in Macedonia.

Well, sort of.., since today's Macedonia does not equal the territories of ancient Macedonia, Greece would in that case be entitled to have that right as country that has the larger part of Classical Macedonia.

Now if you all want to exclude that argument (namely, whoever lives there long enough WILL be a Macedonian and take over the (?) Macedonian customs and traditions, feel free to do that.
So you see, things are not that simple. Why should a Minor Asia Greek be less of a Greek, but someone who has some sort of Macedonian roots through one of his parents and lives in Australia be a full blooded real ethnic Macedonian without having ever set a foot in the motherland and even if he did he wouldn't be able to have a decent conversation with the locals, whether in Macedonian or Albanian.

Now make your peace with that, but please do not bother to reply to any of my messages. I will not answer them.