18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors

[Epirot]

Hey,calm down,Emver Hodza,I didn't call you dumb,although I wouldn't hesitate to call you if I considered you as such,I have no respect for people who lick where they used once to spit

What the f** has Enver Hoxha to do with the topic? At least, spell correctly his name: Enver Hoxha not "Emver Hodza"!!! I'd even bother to comment into your verbal diarrhea since my educate is better than yours. All of your insults tell to your parents, who probably taught you. It's the father and mother at home who are responsible for teaching to their children the basic educate, are not they? So, do not disgrace your family since I want to believe that you're an exception...a bastard! By the way, your favorite myths are going to be smashed one by one here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=107827&posted=1#post107827

"Όλοι οι Έλληνες,μάλιστα οι Μακεδόνες και οι Θεσσαλοί είναι φιλόξενοι"

You're downgrade yourself even more! How the f*** you conclude from the above paragraph that D. Pyrrhos thought ancient Macedonians as Hellenes? I am afraid he was referring to the Μακεδόνες and Θεσσαλοί of his time, was not he? By the way, we know pretty well what was the ethnic make-up of these regions at that time!

No,you liar,you apparently threw that passage of Koumas in order to present your fraudulent claim that he considered all Klephtes as Albanians (as if that has something to do with the topic) which was certainly not the case!Now that I revealed the truth and exposed your fraudulent attempt,you bark like the chicken thiev who is caught red- handed.

Believe whatever you want you Serres cretin! I've made a compilation of sources in regards with the Klephtes and Armatoli. Follow the link:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5858

All educated Greeks of all times knew the most prominent figures of ancient Greece

All educated Europeans knew the most prominent figures of ancient Greece. So what? The leading Phanariot elite was much more interested in Orthodoxism rather than in ancient Greek heritage:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5709

As regards common people that were usually illiterate,yes,most of them didn't know so much,but this happens in every society,illiterate people are not renown for their historical knowledge...let alone in lands that were 4 centuries under Ottoman rule,without schools and formal education.

The "Greeks" of XIX-th century we are speaking about, knew nothing about ancient Greek past not because they were illiterate, but because they were descendants of Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, Turks, Franks, Venetians, etc.

Tell me,Albanovski,how many Albanians in 19th century had any clue about king Pyrros,whom you disgrace using his image as your avatar

We Albanians consider Pyrrhos as our heritage centuries before some lunatic Greek organizations aiming for 'Northern Epirus' put forward weird claims about Greekness of Pyrrhus and Epirus, in general.


Albania and the Albanians: selected articles and letters 1903-1944 By M. Edith Durham, Harry Hodgkinson, Bejtullah D. Destani

The most ancient habits of primitive Europe are here preserved and the influence of progress since the days of King Pyrrhus is practically nil. Epirus and its descendant Albania have been repeatedly subdued, but their submission has ...

The Open court, Volume 27
http://books.google.com/books?id=lPc...ed=0CE0Q6AEwBw

A survey of the Turkish empire: In which are considered, I. Its government ... By William Eton

http://books.google.com/books?id=fjMOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA382&dq=ali+pasha++pyrrhus+descendant&hl=en&ei=BB5JTq3qKIvssgan2ZiiCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=ali%20pasha%20%20pyrrhus%20descendant&f=false

This has nothing to do with the topic!Furthermore,it clearly shows Peter Green is definitely not a pro-Greek person,thus his testimony that Alexander has survived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece becomes more valuable and reliable,in case you haven't grasped it!Thanks for strengthening my argument!

hahahahaha strengthening your argument! Your argument is dismantled thoroughly since there are solid evidences that Alexander the Great has been introduced into memory of "Greeks" very recently. T-shirts, airports, Taxi-companies, slogans with Alexander the Great can not be counted as valuable evidence that Alexander is deep-rooted into folk consciousness of your people! I am sorry

I am not fat,bozo!

Yes you're!


Fields of wheat, hills of blood: passages to nationhood in Greek Macedonia ... By Anastasia N. Karakasidou

Apart from the attempts of Orthodox Church to educate its parishioners, most of the Greek inhabitants of Macedonia knew very little about Alexander. This little acknowledge was fostered by local priests and school-teachers. This is the reason why I call you a big fat because you cynically ignore all the evidences that demolishes your fragile claims.

According to the continuity thesis, which is still the basis of the mainstream of Greek historiography, the ancient Macedonians are necessarily Greek and Alexander the Great is a powerful symbol of what Greek genius and perseverance...

Constructions of Greek past: identity and historical consciousness from antiquity to the present
Hero Hokwerda

Bump it up the following stuff!


Freedom in the World: The Annual Survey of Political Rights & Civil ... By Freedom House Survey Team

More worryingly, Greeks who disagree publicly with their government on the subject can find themselves in court. Next month four members of an anti-nationalist group will appeal against a 19-month sentence for "disseminating false information" and "attempting to incite violence". Their offence was to distribute a leaflet with the title, "Our neighbors are not our enemies. No to nationalism and to war." An 18-year-old student, Michael Papadakis, is also waiting for an appeal hearing against a one-year sentence he received for distributing a leaflet that called Alexander the Great, the most famous Macedonian of all, a war criminal. It added "Macedonia belongs to its people. There are no races. We are all of mixed descent." Mr Papadakis was charged with attempting to incite division among citizens, disturbing the peace and carrying a weapon. No evidence was produced in court to substantiate the last charge.

"The Economist" on Macedonians in Greece
By David Edenden
http://the-macedonian-tendency.blogs...in-greece.html

The Greek fascism showed its totalitarian face especially in 1993, when the government cracked down on people with dissenting views on its Macedonian policy and Greek nationalism. Four Innocent individuals who questioned the Macedonian policy were sentenced with nineteen month. Whereas, a braveheart Greek student who dared to call Alexander as 'miserable slayer of people' was sentenced with one year. Imagine if any other open minded student would call Alexander as non-Greek king. He would be executed publicly by Greek guard.

Dear members of Macedoniantruth,

We should not be angry with the fraudulent claims of our Agamoi! If he does not fulfill adequately his patriotic duty, he may receive a 1 year or more sentence. I guess he's also impelled to claim Bucephalus also as Greek by origin...lol

Yeah,watch out because this homosexualism wave has started to cover Albania too.Are you the owner of these sites?

You're loosing control of yourself! It seem you are very upset and like a whore you're throwing pointless words back and forth! It's not our fault that Greece is a champion country in the Balkans in terms of the highest numbers of homosexuals. I am so sorry!

[Voltron]

If we came, we came because we lost our homelands too. This happens everywhere, we should just bury the hatchet instead of trying to antagonize each other with past greivences. When you say Aegean Macedonia, what village do you mean exactly? If you dont mind of course.

BTW El Bre, I dont have disdain for Pakistani's, I also never said Filipinos in fact they are not a problem at all.
Its just that we are a small country and we simply cannot take care of them. We have our own problems to deal with.

[El Bre]

Why should we resurect their native language ? Is it an endangered language on the verge of extiniction ? Or are you suggesting we convert self identifying Greeks into something else ? Where do we start ? Should we then go to Pontus and resurrect Greek over there ? And what about the "Grekomani" ? They certainly dont view themselves as anything else but Greek. Slavophone Greeks to be more accurate. And lastly if all else fails, in today's internet age all the information to learn about one's history is there. No need to get the government involved. Its not their place to begin with.

Who said it was anybody's responsability to do anything today????

What I said was, how easy do you think it is for these communities to be able to resurrect a language and culture after three or four generations of both overt and passive suppression.

Exactly how many Grekomani do think there would be today if it wasn't the goal of the Greek government to eradicate the Macedonian ethos????

You seem to forget one important fact in all of this. We didn't come to you (like the "Paki's"
and "Flips" that you have seem to have such disdain for) you came to us. And when I say us, I mean me, I was born in and have roots in Aegean Macedonia. Not far away in the Peloponnese like yourself.

[Voltron]

Please tell me the others. Although Greeks lost something in the translation by losing the "zh" when changing Kozhani to Kozani.

Metsovo, Konitsa, Kaimatsalan, etc. Im sure you heard of these Risto. Havnt you ? Some are really nice ski resorts as well, I heard great reviews over at Kaimatsalan but its a hike from Athens.

Agamoi, Im not an expert on Kozani's history, just been there when I was a kid to visit my cousins family up there.
Thanks for posting those references to that book. Good read.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Voltron Said
Quote:
Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region

Quote:
In the nineteenth century the Kozani region was inhabited exclusively by Turks from Konya, who returned to Turkey. The sole exception was the town of Kozani itself, where the Greek speaking inhabitants were almost all Hellenized Vlachs.

Nakratzas Page 129

El Bre,is this quote from Nakratzas' book "The close racial kinship between the Greeks, Bulgarians, and Turks"?I ask you because it is not available online.Anyway,Nakratzas is not a trustworthy source.He is not a historian or ethnologist but a professor of medicine:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Nakratzas%2C+a+teacher+in+Thessaloniki%27s+medical+faculty&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7+%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=el

Furthermore,he is the adviser of vinozito:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Dr+George+Nakratzas%2C+Adviser+of+Rainbow%2FVinozito+%28Party+of+the+Ethnic+Macedonian+Minority+in+Greece%29%2C+&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7+%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=el

There are many first hand accounts from European travelers who visited the region of Kozani in 19th century and mention the existence of Greek populations in the countryside,f.e. William Martin Leake (1835) :

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nx0GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA299

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nx0GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA332

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nx0GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA304

Note that Leake didn't confuse Vlachs with Greeks:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nx0GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA335

[Risto the Great]

Well, I never said it was a Greek toponym. Another example how we did not change every toponym in Macedonia.

Please tell me the others. Although Greeks lost something in the translation by losing the "zh" when changing Kozhani to Kozani.

[Voltron]

Kozhani? Ask your cousin what it means in Greek.
Notwithstanding this, Kozhani is close to the southern end of Macedonia. I would expect some other languages to have influence the further south one goes.

Well, I never said it was a Greek toponym. Another example how we did not change every toponym in Macedonia.

In a modern sense, for example in countries which are net takers of immigrants I would agree with you, but, how easy do you think it is to resurrect a native language after three generations of suppression?

Why should we resurect their native language ? Is it an endangered language on the verge of extiniction ? Or are you suggesting we convert self identifying Greeks into something else ? Where do we start ? Should we then go to Pontus and resurrect Greek over there ? And what about the "Grekomani" ? They certainly dont view themselves as anything else but Greek. Slavophone Greeks to be more accurate. And lastly if all else fails, in today's internet age all the information to learn about one's history is there. No need to get the government involved. Its not their place to begin with.

In the nineteenth century the Kozani region was inhabited exclusively by Turks from Konya, who returned to Turkey. The sole exception was the town of Kozani itself, where the Greek speaking inhabitants were almost all Hellenized Vlachs.

I know about the Turks and Hellenized Vlachs. That doesnt change the fact that those are Greeks though. Vlachs are one of the most indeginous groups in the Balkans and there is enough evidence to suggest they could very well been Latin speaking Greeks. Today they have been reintroduced to their original language which is obviously Greek and are one of our most fervent patriots.

[Agamoi Thytai]

You've made that remark a number of times in your recent posts. Why does he need to be pro-Greek or pro-Macedonian or pro-Albanian? How about being pro-logic and pro-common sense? I don't agree with every single one of his opinions, but there is no doubt that Peter Green is one of the best historians where it concerns Alexander. Anybody that claims otherwise is merely being 'pro-Greek' themselves.

SoM,when I label as pro-Greek or anti-Greek a historian I certainly don't mean he is an enemy or friend of the Greek people or has something against Greece e.t.c..It's just an abbreviation for distinguishing those historians that consider ancient Macedonians as Greeks and those that don't.I've explained why I consider it so significant that an author who doesn't consider ancient Macedonians as Greeks writes something in favour of my arguments.If it was writen by Hammond or Steven Miller let's say (or any other historian who might be considered as pro-Greek,according to the criterion I mentioned) you would probably question his impartiality and consider him as an unreliable source.Yes,I also don't agree with all of Peter Green's opinions,though I accept he is a good historian.However there are many other good historians that have different opinions than Green in regards to ancient Macedonian ethnicity.

[El Bre]

Today you do have a choice Mango. It is not up to the government to teach you your native language. At the end of the day, it us up to your parents, community, and yourself.

In a modern sense, for example in countries which are net takers of immigrants I would agree with you, but, how easy do you think it is to resurrect a native language after three generations of suppression?

[Soldier of Macedon]

it clearly shows Peter Green is definitely not a pro-Greek person,thus his testimony that Alexander has survived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece becomes more valuable and reliable

You've made that remark a number of times in your recent posts. Why does he need to be pro-Greek or pro-Macedonian or pro-Albanian? How about being pro-logic and pro-common sense? I don't agree with every single one of his opinions, but there is no doubt that Peter Green is one of the best historians where it concerns Alexander. Anybody that claims otherwise is merely being 'pro-Greek' themselves.

[makedonche]

[QUOTE=Agamoi Thytai;107654]

Makedonche,I really don't have any clue what is the ironic part you are talking about.

Agamoi
Yes you are correct, for once we agree completely - you don't have a clue!

[El Bre]

Voltron Said

Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region

Nakratzas Page 129

In the nineteenth century the Kozani region was inhabited exclusively by Turks from Konya, who returned to Turkey. The sole exception was the town of Kozani itself, where the Greek speaking inhabitants were almost all Hellenized Vlachs.

[Agamoi Thytai]

The only one who's making senseless comments is you. Once dumb, always dumb! All of your cited accounts from XIX-th century does not change the prevalent view that modern 'Greeks' had no tradition about Alexander before the emergence of Megali Idea. If some romantic writers did mention Alexander the Great and his Macedonians, this cannot be considered either as tradition or knowledge about Macedonians:

Hey,calm down,Emver Hodza,I didn't call you dumb,although I wouldn't hesitate to call you if I considered you as such,I have no respect for people who lick where they used once to spit.

D. Pyrrhos neither considered Macedonians as Greeks nor Alexander as Greek. He just stated that Asiatics were defeated by Macedonian Alexander the Great. I am sorry!!!

Once a liar anf fraud,always a liar and fraud!(Now I am calling you the names you deserve,I am a very justful person).Didn't you notice,you liar,in my post about Pyrros pages 155,160 and 164 of his book?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/dionpyr155.jpg

"As far as the sciences,the arts and Philosophy were thriving in Hellas,the bright Hellenes shined with their virtues among all other nations.AS FAR AS THERE WERE LIVING THOSE GREAT MINDS OF THE WORLD,ALEXANDER THE GREAT,Pyrrhus,Leonidas,Themistocles,Pericles,
Miltiades,Aristotle,divine Socrates,THE HELLENES WERE TRIUMPHANT AGAINST ALL OTHER NATIONS OF THE WORLD.But since the sciences and the Muses are absent from Hellas,all lights of philosophy and virtue have been totally extinguished,all good things in Greece have been immediately vanished.Unhappy Hellas!What you were once,what you are now and how you’ll end up!"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/dionpyr160.jpg

"Όλοι οι Έλληνες,μάλιστα οι Μακεδόνες και οι Θεσσαλοί είναι φιλόξενοι"
(All Hellenes,especially the Macedonians and the Thessalians are hospitable).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/dionpyr164.jpg

"Οι από Ελλήνων βασιλεύσαντες ενδόξως...ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ,ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΣ ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΟΣ,ΕΥΕΡΓΕΤΗΣ,ΦΙΛΟΠΑΤΩΡ,ΕΠΙΦΑΝΗΣ...."
(Those of the Hellenes that gloriously reigned...ALEXANDER,PTOLEMY,PHILADELPHOS,EUERGETES ,PHILOPATOR,EPIPHANES....all Macedonians)

You Serres cretin! Your evident mental disability does not allow to understand the essence of posts. Of course, the Klephtes have nothing to do in regard with thread...I quoted the famous leader of them, Nikotsaras to point out his totally ignorance on Achilles. This was the gigantic gap between population of Greece and ardent Phil-hellenes who imagined them as descendants of ancient Hellenes. As for the nationality of Klephtes, we can discuss in another thread.

No,you liar,you apparently threw that passage of Koumas in order to present your fraudulent claim that he considered all Klephtes as Albanians (as if that has something to do with the topic) which was certainly not the case!Now that I revealed the truth and exposed your fraudulent attempt,you bark like the chicken thiev who is caught red- handed.

So what?? You even to dare to ask so...The fact that Greeks had no clue about ancient Greeks speaks volume on drastic changes occurred in Greece. This does not leave much room for claiming unbroken lineal continuation from antiquity till modern times, does it?

All educated Greeks of all times knew the most prominent figures of ancient Greece.As regards common people that were usually illiterate,yes,most of them didn't know so much,but this happens in every society,illiterate people are not renown for their historical knowledge...let alone in lands that were 4 centuries under Ottoman rule,without schools and formal education.Tell me,Albanovski,how many Albanians in 19th century had any clue about king Pyrros,whom you disgrace using his image as your avatar

Is that all you can say? Oh sorry, I forget that you are professional to pick up selectively some vague quotes and to omit from the rest of book, which clearly refute your fantasy. You would not be pleased if we examine a little further on your quoted books...

This has nothing to do with the topic!Furthermore,it clearly shows Peter Green is definitely not a pro-Greek person,thus his testimony that Alexander has survived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece becomes more valuable and reliable,in case you haven't grasped it!Thanks for strengthening my argument!

3. Karamanlis himself made extensive public funds available for further excavation...therefore he took a continuing personal interest on that project. I'd not be surprised if Karamanlis himself come here to break our balls by claiming Alexander as 'the representative of all Greeks'

This Karamanlis was the uncle of Karamanlis who was recently PM of Greece,and he died in 1998.

Give it a break! You think that only Greeks transmitted legends of Alexander to all people. By whom central Asiatic leaders were taught about their legends with Alexander? By Greeks hahhahaahah Your lame arguments does not hold any water

I didn't say only Greeks spread legends of Alexander,however it was impossible for these Turks in that specific region to learn such legends by any other people,because there weren't any other people around.Do you know where Olympiatha and Stavros are?

Calm down you big fat!

I am not fat,bozo!

I did not accuse Greek homosexuals...I've just make known something that is evident.
It has been posted a long time ago in MacedonianTruth a photo of a Greek gay covered with a Greek flag to promote the Hellenism of Macedonia By the way, what are the possibilities of introducing gay societies in your hometown, Serres since the wave of homosexualism is covering all Greece?!

Yeah,watch out because this homosexualism wave has started to cover Albania too.Are you the owner of these sites?

http://www.gay-datanta.com/gy/gay/albania

http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/albaniagay/home.htm

http://www.gayegypt.com/algayper.html

[Risto the Great]

Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region.

Kozhani? Ask your cousin what it means in Greek.
Notwithstanding this, Kozhani is close to the southern end of Macedonia. I would expect some other languages to have influence the further south one goes.

There are Greeks that disagree with all statements unless it is said they are descended from mythical Greek gods who still watch over them no matter how Christian they purport to be.

[Agamoi Thytai]

What does prove this? That Greeks are the offspring of Macedonians!!!!

If you had some small portion of brain in your empty skull,you would have understand the allusion of the author:Greece is now subjugated to some Asian nation,but some centuries ago the opposite happened,Greeks had subjugated an Asian empire.Can you guess to whom was Pyrros referring?

Do not be ridiculous since nobody gives credit to a XIX century 'Greek' scholar, who was heavily influenced by Romanticism.

Oh,yes,I forgot1Everyhting that demolishes your propaganda is attributed to "romanticism","Classicism","Philhellenism" and and a dozen of other -isms!Very cute!

I just underlined some words from your quote, to show how inaccurate is D. Pyrrhos. According to his wishful thinking, the ancestors of Turks were defeated by Alexander's army. There is no historical record that Alexander met ever Turks (or their ancestors) during his Asiatic expedition. Therefore, D. Pyrrhos constructed the past as to suit to his agenda of reviving the non-existent Hellas

Oh,I see there are at least some remants of brain in your damaged skull!!So i apologize for what I said before!Yes,you finally grasped it,Pyrros made a pararellism between modern Turkey and Greece on the one hand and ancient Persians and Macedonians on the other.He only made an errr in the first part,modern Turks are not the same with ancient Persians.

It seem obvious that you picked up this sentence out of its content. It says nothing whether Macedonians were Greeks or not. It just emphasize the very fact that πρώτοι κάτοικοι of Macedonia were the same with those of Greece, probably a reference to Pelasgi. I have no issue to accept that the first inhabitants of Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and Illyria to some extent, were quite similar to those of Greece. But we are speaking for the period between VIII-IV B.C...

It reads in page 148 "η θρησκεία των Μακεδόνων το παλιό ήταν η αυτή με τα λοιπά έθνη της Ελλάδος" (the religion of the Macedonians was in ancient time the same with the rest of the nations of Greece)

Both Daniel Philippidis and Grigorios Konstantas are proved to be ignorant since it is widely known that Demosthenes was not the only person to call Macedonians as barbarians. Even the famous Thrasymachus labeled unceasingly Macedonian king as 'barbarian':

Shall we become slaves to Archelaus, Greeks as we are, to a barbarian?”
Ἀρχελάῳ δουλεύσομεν , Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρῳ

Stick to the topic please!Neither Thrasymachus nor Demodthenes are 19th or 18th century scholars,otherwise I also can show you dozens of ancient quotes that describe Macedonians as Greeks

In general, I can say that all your cited accounts from XIX century, have no weight not only for being out-dated, but because they were written from some romantic writers who knew nothing about history.

Then I can also claim the same for those Greek 19th century intellectuals that didn't consider ancient Macedonians as Greeks,they were ignorants and outdated too!Alright?

If you want to maintain some credibility, go find some reliable source if inhabitants of Greece knew anything about Alexander the Great prior 1830. Greeks discovered Alexander for the first time after they launched campaigns like "I Makedonia einai elliniki" or something like that.

I have shown the passages of William Martin Leake,from 1835.I have shown the passage of George Abbott who wrote in 1903 that "the chap book of Alexander the Great has been a very popular reading among the lower classes of the Greek world for centuries.I have shown the passage of Peter Green,definitely not a pro-Greek author who says that "Alexander the Great is the only figure from antiquity that has syrvived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece" Isn't that enough???