18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors

[Agamoi Thytai]

You didn't claimed this earlier! To the contrary, you stated:



How can a scholar influence other Greek scholars(as you say) to believe that the Macedonians were not Greeks if he himself is uncertain about the matter?

It seems that the one who's uncertain is you. Maybe you need to clear your thoughts. To help you i will give you a hint.

As I said in one of my previous post,I didn't have read so far what exactly Korais wrote about ancient Macedonians,I only had somewhere read he didn't consider them as Greeks.Now that I see some of his writings,it's quite clear he was not sure,since he states "they were PERHAPS Hellenes".What else do you need to read.And yes,if a scholar is considered as the most prominent of his time by all his contemporary compatriots,he can indeed influence them,it's not so strange.

Only after the German Droysen offered his theories to your historians did they accepted to include the Macedonians into the Greek nation.
And what happened? The Greek state and scholars, the ones who quite recently omitted the Ancient Macedonians from the Greek nation now went on a mission to 'prove' how Hellenic they in fact were.

Well,I've shown you Greek scholars who considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks long before Droysen's time

Well lets for the 'sake of the argument' assume that you didn't took this sentence out of context. In this sentence Korais:

1. Speaks about the successors of Alexander, not about the Ancient Macedonians nor about Alexander nor about his predecessors! Only about his successors who certainly can't be equalized with the Ancient Macedonians themselves.
2. Tells us that the Hellenes were subjugated to the Macedonians.
Do you know what subjugated means?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjugate

Look how are you manipulating what Korais wrote in order to suit your claim!If we accept your view that Korais didn't mean the Macedonians with the phrase "Alexander's succesors were perhaps Greeks themsleves",he doesn't say "the Hellenes were subjugated to the Macedonians" either,he just says "the Hellenes were subjugated to Alexander's succesors"!So,Orphei,first you convert "Alexander's succesors" to non-Macedonians when it doesn't suit you and then again you turn them to Macedonians when it suits you!Anyway,Alexander's succesors who shared between them his empire were certainly all Macedonians,except one,Eumenes of Cardia.Quintus Curtius Rufus' relevant pasage is very enlightening on this issue:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/quintcurt205.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/quintcurt206.gif

PS: You didn't answered my question! What have these 18th century scholars(predecessors of Korais) which you threw around wrote about the Ancient Macedonians apart from the one liners you are quoting and which is nothing more then propaganda for the ignorant. Weren't the Ancient Macedonians such an important part of your nation? Weren't they the ones who spread Hellenic culture all around the world? Isn't it shameful that one liners is everything that the Greek intelligentsia(including the ones that allegedly considered Macedonians as Greeks) wrote about them before Droysen come up in the 1850es and told them '' hey guys, these Macedonians are very important for your new identity, you need to include them in your history'' ?

Be patient,Orphej,there is much more stuff to be posted besides the however I am very busy.

[Agamoi Thytai]

It's interesting to note that Kolokotroni the Albanian hero of the greek revolution never once objected to what cochrane said to him concerning your imaginary ancestors (Both Macedonians and Hellenes);

Well,the thread is called "18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors" while Kolokotronis was not an intellectual,so he doen't have any place here.

Nor does it bother many greeks today that the map found in Kolokotronis' memoirs leave out Macedonia;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2989

Now why would someone so important in your countrys recent history not promote the Alexander myths you are purporting to?

Where is this map from and who has drawn it?I doubt it was Kolokotronis himself,he was completely illiterate and could hardly sign with his name,let alone to draw geographical maps

As for what William Martin Leake described:


Researches in Greece, by William Martin Leake

It seems odd that he equates speaking greek with shopkeepers or artisans i.e. Socio-Labor labels. Another oddity (besides his 19th century narrow minded world view) is how peasants could speak up to three languages in Southern Macedonia. This should make you and your 1 friend with 10 accounts here think twice about what Leake really meant.
As for Abbot;


The Past In Question, By Keith Brown

I wonder how much of these labels you truly understand for this period?

Again I don't see how is related to the current topic all what you have posted above about Leake,Abbott and Keith Beown,and the languages that were spoken in Macedonia of 19th century.

How about you amuse us with what your 2 giddy friends posted about Boiannes and his supposed speech with Alexander being called a Hellene Go ahead and post the material here.

What's the problem with that specific quote?No,I won't post it because Boiannes was not an intellectual either,though I am not aware what was the level of his education regardless of the fact that most Byzantine high ranking millitary commanders and statesmen were highly educated men.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Exactly, so, we can agree that just because you were told that your family has been speaking Greek for a few generations, doesn't necessarily mean that your first ancestor was expelled from the anal cavity of Socrates.

I wasnt told anything El Bre, its common knowledge from people on the ground. If it was something taught to us we would have virtually the same dialect everywhere in Greece. This is not the case, my family from Messinia has a different dialect from other Greeks from Ileia for example.

By the way. When did I say Macedonians were ethnically pure? We are the product of all the peoples who have inhabited or passed through the Balkan Pennisula over the past few thousand years.

You didnt El Bre, and so far from what I have read from your posts you seem more of the levelheaded ones. Regarding your last sentence, agreed and this was exactly my point.

It's not out of the realm of possibility. Go to any village in western Aegean Macedonia and you'll find people speaking a language today that was completely foreign to their great grandparents. So you can't possibly know.

Im not from those villages in Greece and Il take your word for it.

Voltron, everyone knows the purest form of literal Greek is in the North of Greece. It does not contain dialects because they only recently learned it. If it makes you feel better, apparently some people say it was Zeus who taught them 80 years ago.

Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region.

Whatever you are, minority or majority, you have no choice. In your country it's either being Greek or face state repression. And what language are we speaking about? Romaica?

Today you do have a choice Mango. It is not up to the government to teach you your native language. At the end of the day, it us up to your parents, community, and yourself.

[mango]

Mango, im not the minority. Im the majority. Where do you think we learned our language from ? Church lessons ? Seriously man.

A better example is the Taliban. They despise the west and look how they live.
Greeks do not despise America, that is a completely false.

Whatever you are, minority or majority, you have no choice. In your country it's either being Greek or face state repression. And what language are we speaking about? Romaica?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonians not being Greek is the myth SOM, not logic.

The only myth is the one that fools like yourself conjure. Macedonians weren't Greek then, and they aren't Greek now. When one takes ALL of the evidence collectively, that is the logical interpretation.

Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.

The history of Greeks isn't the problem, it is the way people like you 'spin' it which is the problem.

There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek.

There is plenty right here on this forum if you open your eyes. Over the last few days you have been creeping these sort of comments in more and more, denying the existence of Macedonians and their own historical identity. You won't be permitted to do this for much longer. Your views are well known, and you don't even have half a peanut in that skull of yours to argue anything at all, let alone convincingly. All you seem to be doing is repeating the same garbage that one could easily find on a forum run by your fellow deludes. You've made your point, stupid as it is. If you have no argument other than repeating the same statement, then you have no place in this discussion.

Laskaris is known as one of the first educated Byzantines who promoted the revival of the term "Hellene" with its ethnic meaning,just make a small google research.It is very clear in what context he used the referrence to Alexander.

I wouldn't know the context as I haven't seen the text. And as I am not exactly prepared to take your word for it, I would rather read the actual text myself. Do you have it or not?

Laonikos Chalcocondylis,Byzantine 15th century historian:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/o...laonchalc5.gif

"So the Hellenes earned great glory,having demonstrated great and praiseworthy deeds,some of them in Europe and even in Libya (he means probably Africa in general),also reaching even Gagges and Oceanus (the Atlantic) and Caucasus,and in those lands had come before many others and especially Hercules,and even earlier Dionysus,the son of Semele,and afterwards the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians,and after them the king of the Macedonians and those that succeeded him in power,and these events have been remembered and recorded as they have occurred by many other authors.Hellenes accomplished this over a long period of time."

Why does he mention Lacedaemonians and Athenians as peoples, but then only mentions the king of the Macedonians?

Rigas Feraios,late 18th century:

Practically anybody would qualify as a Greek going by his definition, thus the fact that he would include the ancient Macedonians comes as no suprise. Makes it easy for Rigas' own people, the Vlachs, to also be included in this definition:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=394&highlight=rigas

Panajiotis Kodrikas' "Study of the Koine (Common) Hellenic dialect",1818

He bases his assumption on the false connection between the ancient Macedonian language and the Doric dialects of Greek, and some other fluff that he appears to have conjured himself. Nevertheless, the point isn't to assess whether or not their information is correct, but if they did claim a heritage from the ancient Macedonians. You've done this, so thank you, and if you have any more names you can add to that list, then do so.

To be honest, that Alexander and the ancient Macedonians would feature in some of the stories and traditions among the peoples that he conquered and/or ruled hardly comes as a suprise. This 'heritage' is akin to an Iranian, Indian or Pakistani claiming a 'heritage' from the Mongols, where there are several parallels:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1296

[George S.]

it has a lot to do with the ethnic cosciousness as you can see albanians in the navy expressing themselves in albanian & they have an ethnic albanian consciousness.ONe can say that the albanian roots are still there.Also you have the vlach consciousness that they are conscious of their language traditions even though the greek gov tried to erradicate their ethnic consciousness is still there.Look at the macedonian afflictions being prevented from speaking the macedonian idiom & to be free to speak & express in the macedonian mother tounge.Many times the greeks tried to erradicate any macedonian cosciousness by telling & forcing people to identify as greeks.But despite this the conciosness of the ethnic minorities cannot be toally erradicated.The macedonians of rom are genetically connected to the ancient macedonians as tests have proven.The fact that we are and feel as macedonians should be enough to tell the world we are macedonians.Genetics tell that we are macedonians.

[El Bre]

Mango, im not the minority. Im the majority. Where do you think we learned our language from ? Church lessons ? Seriously man.A better example is the Taliban. They despise the west and look how they live.
Greeks do not despise America, that is a completely false.

It's not out of the realm of possibility. Go to any village in western Aegean Macedonia and you'll find people speaking a language today that was completely foreign to their great grandparents. So you can't possibly know.

[Risto the Great]

Voltron, everyone knows the purest form of literal Greek is in the North of Greece. It does not contain dialects because they only recently learned it. If it makes you feel better, apparently some people say it was Zeus who taught them 80 years ago.

[El Bre]

Absolutely Nothing. ^ So what the heck is this Vlach,Albanian,Slav diatribe all about all the time ? We dont speak Vlach, nor Albanian nor Slav. So if we go along the lines of just genetics as Mango is suggesting we can only wonder what the Macedonians of ROM are today.

Exactly, so, we can agree that just because you were told that your family has been speaking Greek for a few generations, doesn't necessarily mean that your first ancestor was expelled from the anal cavity of Socrates.

By the way. When did I say Macedonians were ethnically pure? We are the product of all the peoples who have inhabited or passed through the Balkan Pennisula over the past few thousand years.

[Voltron]

Mango, im not the minority. Im the majority. Where do you think we learned our language from ? Church lessons ? Seriously man.

A better example is the Taliban. They despise the west and look how they live.
Greeks do not despise America, that is a completely false.

[mango]

Mango,you made a statement saying "despised". When someone despises something they do not imitate it. Not even for fashion.

Regarding our genetic makeup...If thats what we are. God only knows what your made up of. My Grandparents and Great Grandparents and Great Great Grandparents were Greek speakers. Sorry.

Not so. Modern Greeks mostly despise America yet they dress in blue jeans, drink Coke, eat at McDonalds and adore Hollywood.

As far as you and your grandparents are concerned, I have no reason to doubt your words but you obviously constitute a tiny minority.

[Voltron]

Orfej, Agamoi answered the inaccuracy involved in the title of this thread. If you guys dont like it thats fine. You keep coming up with all kinds of excuses, copouts, etc.
Fact of the matter is you should concentrate on what your intellectuals were saying about your ethnos a century or two ago. Oh wait, there is an excuse for that as well.

[Voltron]

What does a spoken language have to do with genetic make up?

Absolutely Nothing. ^ So what the heck is this Vlach,Albanian,Slav diatribe all about all the time ? We dont speak Vlach, nor Albanian nor Slav. So if we go along the lines of just genetics as Mango is suggesting we can only wonder what the Macedonians of ROM are today.

[Orfej]

[QUOTE=Agamoi Thytai;107625]

Elaborate please,I can't see anything ironic.

The irony is evident, yet your blindness can't see it. Let me help you. You said:

Dionysios Pyrros also wrote a history of Alexander the Great in 1845,with the following description on the preface:

"Life,deeds and exploits of the Macedonian Alexander the Great:composed out of the writings of ancient Hellene authors and interpreted in Neohellenic,with the ancient and the modern names of the cities and of their current inhabitants,with the addition of a map of Alexander's campaign.Printed for first time now,to the benefit of the studious Hellenes"

So he didn't wrote anything, he just combined the writings of ancient authors. And the year was 1845, the tide was turning and Greeks were slowly realizing that annexing Macedonia is a good idea for the prosperity of the Greek nation. So they reverted their old ideas of the Macedonians being conquerors of Greece. Now they've become 'the ones that united the Greeks against a common enemy'

And if you find ironic the phrase "printed for firts time now",this was definitely not the first modern Greek book about Alexander.I know there was an edition from 1804,"Diegesis Alexandrou tou Makedonos" (Story of Alexander the Macedonian",which was actually Pseudo-Callistheenes' History of Alexander in some form of modern Greek),though such "histories of Alexander" were very popular all over the Greek world for many centuries earlier,as G.Abbott wrote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8MIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=di%C4%93g%C4%93sis+Alexandrou+tou+Makedonos&hl=el&ei=0V5FTua3Fc-r-gbMkIyDBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

This was a reedited edition of Pseudo-Callisthenes book 'Alexander Romance' from the 3th century which has been the basis for all later versions. And if you didn't knew, besides Greek versions (with which you proudly parade) there were also French, Slavic,Latin,Syrian,Armenian,German, Arabic,English and other versions of the book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_romance

For example,there was printed in Venice in 1603 a book called "O Aλέξανδρος ο Μακεδών" (Alexander the Macedonian) :

http://books.google.com/books?id=DXXjSAAACAAJ&dq=ho+alexandros+ho+makedon&hl=el&ei=s8qYTbfTAaDY4wbAmvDUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

The author of that book appeared to be a certain Dimitrios Zinos,who stated in the preface though that he actually had reedited a story that was first written in 1529 and later edited by some unknown person in Zakynthos,where he found the old manuscript.

"This booklet was printed in Venice
the one who printed it had great aspirations
to find the exploits and deeds of Alexander
and how he met death at the hands of Cassander..."

It is evident in this verses of Dimitrios Zinos in the preface that he reflects older popular beliefs of Byzantine time that attributed to Alexander the features of a Christian Saint,praising his prudence and his abstinence from flesh pleasures,speaking of his treatment of Darius' captured wife:

"Thus take and hold this story
to see the exploits and Alexander's culture
for he possessed bravery and prudence
so see whether he was a prudent and just man
because he had captured Darius' wife
but didn't commit adultery,like the sinners do
even though he was young and powerfull..."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexmegzinos2.gif

"Years after the new redemption of mankind
Fifteen hundred and twentynine
on the fifteenth of the month September
through the effort and skill of Zinos Dimitrios."
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/o...xmegzinos3.gif

Again, this is nothing more then a version of Alexander's romance.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NpOF4V8HVLoC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=Dimitrius+zinos&source=bl&ots=nqTzXP92y7&sig=plCOngZnYTJE2Jayqmwk7lOv7lI&hl=en&ei=dV1GTsDrEob4sgai1OCtCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Russians had their own version of the book.

"Alexandria Serbskaya", novel about A.the Great. 17 century. Alexander descends into the sea in a glass vessel

Here's another version:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=S3qJMMYH6VYC&pg=PA332&lpg=PA332&dq=serb+alexander,+literature&source=bl&ots=vd5ua9rS7r&sig=PGLOg66_JLx6nT1S6ObqxcwC9nA&hl=en&ei=iU6nTLW6M8XJcYCApZMN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Myths and legends about Alexander the Macedonian were scattered all around the world and as much was the memory of Alexander preserved in Greece, it was in other places too. Of course, you needed a little help from the Westerners to refresh your memory.





PS: Can you please answer my post regarding Korais? I'm still confused as of your thoughts!

[El Bre]

Regarding our genetic makeup...If thats what we are. God only knows what your made up of. My Grandparents and Great Grandparents and Great Great Grandparents were Greek speakers. Sorry.

What does a spoken language have to do with genetic make up?