18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors

[Voltron]

Everybody in the Mediterranean world and elsewhere learned to speak Attic Greek and more/less worshiped, among others, the Olympic Gods (Macedonians worshiped also their own gods) and wanted to participate in Greek traditions (that was the fashion of the time). That is the reason Hellenistic means "Greekish" and not "Greek."

"Our"?!?! The modern Greek nation is made of Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Macedonians, Armenians, Jews, Romas etc (check with your grandparents which language they spoke at home) so, sorry, there is no "our."

Mango,you made a statement saying "despised". When someone despises something they do not imitate it. Not even for fashion.

Regarding our genetic makeup...If thats what we are. God only knows what your made up of. My Grandparents and Great Grandparents and Great Great Grandparents were Greek speakers. Sorry.

[mango]

Yeah, they despised the Greeks so much that everything they did from worshipping our Gods, speaking our language, participate in our traditions and spreading our culture throughout the known world and having the era defined as "Hellenisitic" Age.

Too bad Albanians dont follow the same approach in ROM.

Everybody in the Mediterranean world and elsewhere learned to speak Attic Greek and more/less worshiped, among others, the Olympic Gods (Macedonians worshiped also their own gods) and wanted to participate in Greek traditions (that was the fashion of the time). That is the reason Hellenistic means "Greekish" and not "Greek."

"Our"?!?! The modern Greek nation is made of Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Macedonians, Armenians, Jews, Romas etc (check with your grandparents which language they spoke at home) so, sorry, there is no "our."

[Epirot]

Read please all the posts before posting such senseless comments!I posted this as a reply to someone who said that "modern Greeks don't have any traditions and myths about Alexander the Great",not as a proof that Alexander was Greek

The only one who's making senseless comments is you. Once dumb, always dumb! All of your cited accounts from XIX-th century does not change the prevalent view that modern 'Greeks' had no tradition about Alexander before the emergence of Megali Idea. If some romantic writers did mention Alexander the Great and his Macedonians, this cannot be considered either as tradition or knowledge about Macedonians:

3)Dionysios Pyrros the Thessalian,1818 and "Methodic Geography of the whole universe,on behalf of his friends and pupils and the Hellenic genus"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/o...dionpyrcov.jpg

“She (Hellas) is today subjugated to the despotic rule of the Turk emperor,the so-called Sultan,who descends from the interior of great Asia,which was once utterly defeated by the Macedonian Alexander the Great”

D. Pyrrhos neither considered Macedonians as Greeks nor Alexander as Greek. He just stated that Asiatics were defeated by Macedonian Alexander the Great. I am sorry!!!

That's wrong.Though the majority of Byzantines self-identified as Romans,there are many examples of Byzantines who used the term Hellenes for self-identification too:

I'll give my response in any respective thread!

I wonder what have the Klephtes to do with our topic,though it's a good chance to expose your ignorance.Why didn't you show the WHOLE PAGE,so that we see what exactly Koumas meant and who were those Klephtes?

You Serres cretin! Your evident mental disability does not allow to understand the essence of posts. Of course, the Klephtes have nothing to do in regard with thread...I quoted the famous leader of them, Nikotsaras to point out his totally ignorance on Achilles. This was the gigantic gap between population of Greece and ardent Phil-hellenes who imagined them as descendants of ancient Hellenes. As for the nationality of Klephtes, we can discuss in another thread.

Some didn't have indeed any clue but some had,like those below.So what?

So what?? You even to dare to ask so...The fact that Greeks had no clue about ancient Greeks speaks volume on drastic changes occurred in Greece. This does not leave much room for claiming unbroken lineal continuation from antiquity till modern times, does it?

To sum it up,Peter Green clearly wrote that "Alexander is the only figure from antiquity that has survived in medieval and modern Greek consciousness is Alexander the Great",either you like it or not.All the rest is wishful thinking...

Is that all you can say? Oh sorry, I forget that you are professional to pick up selectively some vague quotes and to omit from the rest of book, which clearly refute your fantasy. You would not be pleased if we examine a little further on your quoted books...



I guess that if Greek archeologists during their excavations find any fossilized dung of any ancient Macedonian, Greek politicians would consider it as amount of nationalist capital

2. The recovery of Macedonia formed an essential step in the implementation of the "Great Idea".

3. Karamanlis himself made extensive public funds available for further excavation...therefore he took a continuing personal interest on that project. I'd not be surprised if Karamanlis himself come here to break our balls by claiming Alexander as 'the representative of all Greeks'

And by whom do you think those Turks on the coastline of the Strymonic Gulf were taught these traditions?Not to note that most Turks in all Macedonia were actually descending from converted natives

Give it a break! You think that only Greeks transmitted legends of Alexander to all people. By whom central Asiatic leaders were taught about their legends with Alexander? By Greeks hahhahaahah Your lame arguments does not hold any water

Many prominent psychologists say that most homos usually accuse without any apparent reason other people of homosexuallity,in order to redeem their oppressed alter ego.Wise people those psychologists,I say...

Calm down you big fat! I did not accuse Greek homosexuals...I've just make known something that is evident.

Athens has a large number of LGBT associations and a developing gay village in the Gazi, Athens neighborhood. A gay pride event, the 'Athens Pride' (see below) and an international Gay and Lesbian film festival, the 'Outview', are held annually. There is an emerging gay scene in Thessaloniki with some gay/lesbian bars/clubs and several friendly mixed venues, and one LGBT organisation, organising public discussions.The gay scene in the island of Myconos and the lesbian scene in Eressos, Lesbos is famous internationally.

It has been posted a long time ago in MacedonianTruth a photo of a Greek gay covered with a Greek flag to promote the Hellenism of Macedonia By the way, what are the possibilities of introducing gay societies in your hometown, Serres since the wave of homosexualism is covering all Greece?!

I don't give a shit about what you admit,you are a huge nothing.If Peter Green,who is an anti-Greek like you too,but by far more famous and recognizable person confirms my view,why should I bother with the view of a nothing

If we have an instrument to detect the lies, then it would explode because you lie every time when you open your mouth. If you are not bother to the view of a nothing, then why so do you spent all of your time to obey as spay. It seem that you are not pleased with the humiliation you have gotten in MAKNEWS, are you?.

[Agamoi Thytai]

[QUOTE=makedonche;107651]

Agamoi
Keep looking, it's so obvious a 5 year old can pick it up!
PS: And thanks for reinforcing the irony you fail to see, let me know when you get it!

Makedonche,I really don't have any clue what is the ironic part you are talking about.

[makedonche]

[QUOTE=Agamoi Thytai;107625]

Agamoi
Here's a snippet from one of your own posts which you'll probably fail to see the irony in, have a read and tell me if you find anything ironic in this text:-

Elaborate please,I can't see anything ironic.If you mean the difference between modern and ancient names,curent inhabitants e.t.c,well he could refer to some people like Arabs and Turks that now dwel in most lands that Alexander conquered while they were not around in Alexander's time.And if you find ironic the phrase "printed for firts time now",this was definitely not the first modern Greek book about Alexander.I know there was an edition from 1804,"Diegesis Alexandrou tou Makedonos" (Story of Alexander the Macedonian",which was actually Pseudo-Callistheenes' History of Alexander in some form of modern Greek),though such "histories of Alexander" were very popular all over the Greek world for many centuries earlier,as G.Abbott wrote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8MIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=di%C4%93g%C4%93sis+Alexandrou+tou+Makedonos&hl=el&ei=0V5FTua3Fc-r-gbMkIyDBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

For example,there was printed in Venice in 1603 a book called "O Aλέξανδρος ο Μακεδών" (Alexander the Macedonian) :

http://books.google.com/books?id=DXXjSAAACAAJ&dq=ho+alexandros+ho+makedon&hl=el&ei=s8qYTbfTAaDY4wbAmvDUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

The author of that book appeared to be a certain Dimitrios Zinos,who stated in the preface though that he actually had reedited a story that was first written in 1529 and later edited by some unknown person in Zakynthos,where he found the old manuscript.

"This booklet was printed in Venice
the one who printed it had great aspirations
to find the exploits and deeds of Alexander
and how he met death at the hands of Cassander..."

It is evident in this verses of Dimitrios Zinos in the preface that he reflects older popular beliefs of Byzantine time that attributed to Alexander the features of a Christian Saint,praising his prudence and his abstinence from flesh pleasures,speaking of his treatment of Darius' captured wife:

"Thus take and hold this story
to see the exploits and Alexander's culture
for he possessed bravery and prudence
so see whether he was a prudent and just man
because he had captured Darius' wife
but didn't commit adultery,like the sinners do
even though he was young and powerfull..."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexmegzinos2.gif

"Years after the new redemption of mankind
Fifteen hundred and twentynine
on the fifteenth of the month September
through the effort and skill of Zinos Dimitrios."
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/o...xmegzinos3.gif

Agamoi
Keep looking, it's so obvious a 5 year old can pick it up!
PS: And thanks for reinforcing the irony you fail to see, let me know when you get it!

[Agamoi Thytai]

This does not give much credit to ascribe him as a Greek historical figure, does it? The figure of Alexander survive in the folk-consciousness of many people like Hebrew, Ethiopians, Arabs, Persians and even Indians. I recall in mind an excellent post made by Onur, which deals with the question we are speaking about:

Read please all the posts before posting such senseless comments!I posted this as a reply to someone who said that "modern Greeks don't have any traditions and myths about Alexander the Great",not as a proof that Alexander was Greek.

You mention some Byzantine historians who revived the name of Alexander and his Macedonians, but again this has no weight at all since Byzantines never celebrated any strong connection with ancient Hellenes.

That's wrong.Though the majority of Byzantines self-identified as Romans,there are many examples of Byzantines who used the term Hellenes for self-identification too:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas20.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas21.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas22.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/vatatzgre95.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/vatatzgre96.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/vatatzgre97.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/lasctheodmetoh.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/2vatatzgre528.gif

Anna Comnena wrote in early 12th century:

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4978/komnena.png

"But one of the Latins hit his helmet with his cross-bow. This cross-bow is a barbarian bow,quite unknown to the Hellenes."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexiasellisin.gif

"This man was such,briefly speaking,that no one resembled him in the land of the Romans,neither barbarian nor Hellene".

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexiasellinvarvar.gif

Laonicos Chalcocondyles,early 15th century:

This is how Aetolia was subjugated to king Murad:after these events,the Hellenes came to his court requesting a truce and a peace treaty was signed,according to whose terms the fortifications of Isthmus were to be demolished and they shouldn’t attempt any new attack.Thus Turahan was send to Peloponnesus and he pillaged the Venetian domains,demolished the Isthmus fortifications and enslaved some other villages he had captured. from the Venetians.Then,as he was leaving Peloponnesus,the Albanians of Peloponnesus gathered in the region called Davia,in the heart of the country,elected their own military commander and intended to secede from the Hellenes,in order to rout the army of Turahan.When Turahan was informed that the Albanians were marching to meet him in battle,he lined up his troops to fight,since he could not escape.And the Albanians,drawn up in battle array too,advanced and when the fight began,not being able to sustain the Turkish attack,started to flee.Here upon Turahan went out pursuing them and killed a great many during the pursuit,and those he captured alive,about 800,killed them all on the spot,made a pyramide with their heads and left.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/laonchalc238.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/laonchalc239.gif

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2997/hellas.png

Patriarch of Constantinople Gregorios III from Cyprus (13th century) :

http://www.bookrags.com/research/gregory-of-cyprus-eorl-06/

He wrote in his autobiography:

"The home of the author of that book is the island of Cyprus.His fathers and the fathers of his fathers and all his ancestral line formerly held their country living wealthy,untill the Hellenic population of that region was enslaved by barbarian Italians"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/GregCyprcov.png

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/GregCyprcovmeg.gif

All educated Byzantines were conscious of their Hellenic heritage and that's why they studied the works of classic ancient Greek authors:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4071/photiosbrowning.png

Not to say about people of 'Greece' in the time of revolutionary wars who got no clue about most prominent historical figures of ancient Greece:

Some didn't have indeed any clue but some had,like those below.So what?

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/e1ddf6492ddd1bb3aaf977772ebb72f0.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/tranorgre159.png

Furthermore, Koumas knew perfectly what were the Klephtes:




"A Romaic grammar: accompanied by a chrestomathy, with a vocabulary"---Evangelinus Apostolides Sophocles

I wonder what have the Klephtes to do with our topic,though it's a good chance to expose your ignorance.Why didn't you show the WHOLE PAGE,so that we see what exactly Koumas meant and who were those Klephtes?Here you are:

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/9bc8860b9f95a391979f1421bba319a3.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/f5316ab1928b94ca1db11381661b6e8c.jpg

"4.When the summer passed and the Klephtes returned to Albania or were hiden in the mountains,then Turkish troops appeared to punish them.But instead they punished their victims".
"5.MANY MOUNTAINOUS GREEKS,dwelling in Olympus,Ossa,Pelion,Oite and other mountains,who guarded with weapons their homes from the Klephtes,started to demand from the more peaceful compatriots wages for their task.If they were not paid,THEY IMITATED THE EXAMPLE OF THE ALBANIANS and became robbers too.THOSE WERE THE KLEPHTES OF GREECE that are praised in many folksongs,who appeared long ago."
"6.The rulers,in order to relieve themselves of the concern to pursuing those Albanians and Greek Klephtes,decided to offer them yearly wages to guard the country from the plundering of other Klephtes.Thus the leaders of those bands were appointed to various regions of the country.Every leader was guarding with his band his own region,so that no other Klephtes appear and no one gives them bread."
"7.The GREEK KLEPHTES,since this task was assigned to them,changed their name to something more euphemistic.They were all together called armatoloi (literally "the armed ones");their leader,kapetanios;his men,palikaria;and his adjutant,protopalikaro,and was elected by the palikaria after the death of the kapetanios as his succesor,if he was chuldless or his son was still too young to beacome kapetanios.The regions under their jurisdiction were called kapetanata or protata."

To sum it up, modern Greeks have not a single memory in respect with Alexander the Great and ancient Macedonian heritage. It's true that Alexander was misused by your infamous Colonels, to fit to their military adventures. Peter Green witnessed that:

To sum it up,Peter Green clearly wrote that "Alexander is the only figure from antiquity that has survived in medieval and modern Greek consciousness is Alexander the Great",either you like it or not.All the rest is wishful thinking...

A great Greek hero to be idolized by young recruits, who probably were homosexuals...hahahahahahaha

Many prominent psychologists say that most homos usually accuse without any apparent reason other people of homosexuallity,in order to redeem their oppressed alter ego.Wise people those psychologists,I say...

Deep rooted? hahahah Never mind! Actually you're confusing present with the past, are not you? I mean the nationalistic campaigns promoted by Greece after the emerging of Macedonia, as an independent state. In this hysteric campaign, there were produced T-shirts with Alexander, Taxi companies bore the name of Alexander...Your hysteria meets no limits as you named the airport of Kavala as Κρατικός Αερολιμένας Καβάλας «Μέγας Αλέξανδρος»

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Megas_Alexandros

Kozani as Κρατικός Αερολιμένας Κοζάνης "Φίλιππος

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani_National_Airport_%22Filippos%22

Kastoria as Aristotelis airport:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastoria_National_Airport

So I would admit frankly your assertion that Alexander the Great is deep rooted in Greece, only if you are referring to the present state of things.

I don't give a shit about what you admit,you are a huge nothing.If Peter Green,who is an anti-Greek like you too,but by far more famous and recognizable person confirms my view,why should I bother with the view of a nothing?

Do you know how many place-names and local traditions are throughout Asia in regards with Alexander the Great? If the locals of Kavala called this city as 'city of Bucephalus'...then what's your point?

My point is that this is another proof that Alexander was always a very popular figure in Greek folk tradition,nothing more nothing less

Pierre Bellon did not say anything about the ethnic background of the city at that time. Ok, let for the sake of argument admit for a second that Kavalla was greek, and its inhabitants cherished memory about ancient Macedonia.

He said that the Turcs after the war in Hungary brought with them Jews from Buda,Pest and Albaregal and settled them in Kavala and Serres and now there are around 500 Jews amongst the Greeks and the Turks:

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/10dd11735b525ecc03c7fb64191aa997.jpg

But your beloved E. Abbot pointed out that even the Turks of Macedonia have such a traditions...

And by whom do you think those Turks on the coastline of the Strymonic Gulf were taught these traditions?Not to note that most Turks in all Macedonia were actually descending from converted natives.

[George S.]

so agamoi what right have you got to simply go over to macedonia & take it or occupy it with illegal means.Yo are in denial that 1913 ever took place you are afraid of admitting that macedonia was ever invaded.Try the words partioned .One minute macedonians exist then the next presto it's the greek masquearading as a macedonian.Give me a break you guys survive on fakery of the highest order its called self delusion about the past which you dwell & present fakery.You only have to look to a drab future as your chances aren't very good as most people recognize rom by her constitutional name.
What has the name of a province got anything to do with the naming of a country.Nothing unless you are a pgheaded grk.Ah yes delusions of grandeur.

[TrueMacedonian]

European travellers who visited in 19th century districts of southern Macedonia inhabited mainly by Greeks mention various traditions and myths about Alexander the Great:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolklcover.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl251.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl279.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl280.jpg

Actually G.Abbott has cited W.Leake's account from 1835:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/olympileake.jpg

The Past in Question, by Keith Brown

Perhaps the source of most such traditions was not folk memory,however it was not "western influence" either and nevertheless it shows how deep rooted is the figure of Alexander the Great in Greek collective memory even through literrary sources that were very popular for cneturies:Probably it was the "Chap-book of Alexander the Great" (the known "history of Alexnader" of Pseudo-Callisthenes) which,as G.Abbott wrote in 1903, "has long been and still is a favourite reading of the lower classes all over the Greek world":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl282.jpg

Hell,there are traditions about Alexander among the Greeks of Macedonia recorded even in 16th century,long before any "western influence" or philhellenism,romanticism e.t.c reached the Balkans!The French Pierre Bellon wrote in 1553 about a tradition in the village of Chalastra,near ancient Philippi in the district of Kavala,that the locals called this city "city of Bucephalus" and they believed that there was the manger where Alexander the Great's horse ate.
"Les habitans du pays en sont une fable enti eulx,estimants que c'est la mangeoire de la iument d' Alexandre le Grand.Mais par la iument fault entendre Bucephalus"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Belloncover.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Belon140.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/o.../Bellon141.gif

It's interesting to note that Kolokotroni the Albanian hero of the greek revolution never once objected to what cochrane said to him concerning your imaginary ancestors (Both Macedonians and Hellenes);




Nor does it bother many greeks today that the map found in Kolokotronis' memoirs leave out Macedonia;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2989

Now why would someone so important in your countrys recent history not promote the Alexander myths you are purporting to?

As for what William Martin Leake described:


Researches in Greece, by William Martin Leake

It seems odd that he equates speaking greek with shopkeepers or artisans i.e. Socio-Labor labels. Another oddity (besides his 19th century narrow minded world view) is how peasants could speak up to three languages in Southern Macedonia. This should make you and your 1 friend with 10 accounts here think twice about what Leake really meant.
As for Abbot;


The Past In Question, By Keith Brown

I wonder how much of these labels you truly understand for this period?

How about you amuse us with what your 2 giddy friends posted about Boiannes and his supposed speech with Alexander being called a Hellene Go ahead and post the material here.

[Agamoi Thytai]

[QUOTE=makedonche;107448]Agamoi
Here's a snippet from one of your own posts which you'll probably fail to see the irony in, have a read and tell me if you find anything ironic in this text:-

[Dionysios Pyrros also wrote a history of Alexander the Great in 1845,with the following description on the preface:

"Life,deeds and exploits of the Macedonian Alexander the Great:composed out of the writings of ancient Hellene authors and interpreted in Neohellenic,with the ancient and the modern names of the cities and of their current inhabitants,with the addition of a map of Alexander's campaign.Printed for first time now,to the benefit of the studious Hellenes"

/QUOTE]

Elaborate please,I can't see anything ironic.If you mean the difference between modern and ancient names,curent inhabitants e.t.c,well he could refer to some people like Arabs and Turks that now dwel in most lands that Alexander conquered while they were not around in Alexander's time.And if you find ironic the phrase "printed for firts time now",this was definitely not the first modern Greek book about Alexander.I know there was an edition from 1804,"Diegesis Alexandrou tou Makedonos" (Story of Alexander the Macedonian",which was actually Pseudo-Callistheenes' History of Alexander in some form of modern Greek),though such "histories of Alexander" were very popular all over the Greek world for many centuries earlier,as G.Abbott wrote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8MIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=di%C4%93g%C4%93sis+Alexandrou+tou+Makedonos&hl=el&ei=0V5FTua3Fc-r-gbMkIyDBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

For example,there was printed in Venice in 1603 a book called "O Aλέξανδρος ο Μακεδών" (Alexander the Macedonian) :

http://books.google.com/books?id=DXXjSAAACAAJ&dq=ho+alexandros+ho+makedon&hl=el&ei=s8qYTbfTAaDY4wbAmvDUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

The author of that book appeared to be a certain Dimitrios Zinos,who stated in the preface though that he actually had reedited a story that was first written in 1529 and later edited by some unknown person in Zakynthos,where he found the old manuscript.

"This booklet was printed in Venice
the one who printed it had great aspirations
to find the exploits and deeds of Alexander
and how he met death at the hands of Cassander..."

It is evident in this verses of Dimitrios Zinos in the preface that he reflects older popular beliefs of Byzantine time that attributed to Alexander the features of a Christian Saint,praising his prudence and his abstinence from flesh pleasures,speaking of his treatment of Darius' captured wife:

"Thus take and hold this story
to see the exploits and Alexander's culture
for he possessed bravery and prudence
so see whether he was a prudent and just man
because he had captured Darius' wife
but didn't commit adultery,like the sinners do
even though he was young and powerfull..."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexmegzinos2.gif

"Years after the new redemption of mankind
Fifteen hundred and twentynine
on the fifteenth of the month September
through the effort and skill of Zinos Dimitrios."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexmegzinos3.gif

[Voltron]

Yeah, they despised the Greeks so much that everything they did from worshipping our Gods, speaking our language, participate in our traditions and spreading our culture throughout the known world and having the era defined as "Hellenisitic" Age.

Too bad Albanians dont follow the same approach in ROM.

[mango]

Mango, Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.
There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek. Absolutly nothing concrete. It always comes down to speculation.

You're right, it is well documented, that is precisely the reason why we know the Greeks did not consider the Macedonians to be Greek and neither the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greek. Macedonians despised the Greeks.

[Bill77]

Mango, Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.
There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek. Absolutly nothing concrete. It always comes down to speculation.

Yes we do, Alexander had to prove why he should enter a Greek only Game. Being Macedonian was not proof.

[Voltron]

Without your jokes, this thread would not be as nearly interesting. Let continue further your infamous joke:

Illyrians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Thracians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Epirotes not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Dacians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Celts not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Etruscans not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Scythians not being Greek is the myth, not logic.

Why your logic suddenly passes into mythic grounds? The crash between Macedonians and Greeks was not limited only in that Olympic competition: the ancient literature is loaded with full ethnic riots of Greeks against Macedonians. John Shea stated that even to medium Greeks (the case of athletes), Macedonians were seen as foreigners.

But this does not belong here, does it? Voltron you're jumping from one thread to another, so most of your replies have nothing to do with the thread.

Your're right Epirot, doesnt belong in this thread. It wasnt my intention to derail it either. I made a comment and it took off from there. Lets take it elsewhere.

[Voltron]

You can spin history all you want but the bottom line remains the same. The participants complained (they knew he was not Greek) so the officials decided to examine the accusations (they also knew he was not Greek up to that point). According to Borza the whole incident was just a piece of propaganda transmitted by Herodotus. Borza claims the list of the competitors of that particular Olympic games does not contain Alex's name.

Mango, Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.
There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek. Absolutly nothing concrete. It always comes down to speculation.

[Epirot]

Every few months ? What is amazing to me is how Alexanders response is completely disregarded and the focus is on the objection of other athletes. As if today we dont have similar Olympic stories of ppl trying to obstruct even their own teammates for personal gain. Nancy Kerrigan anyone ? Macedonians not being Greek is the myth SOM, not logic.

http://figureskating.about.com/od/pr...p/kerrigan.htm

Without your jokes, this thread would not be as nearly interesting. Let continue further your infamous joke:

Illyrians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Thracians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Epirotes not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Dacians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Celts not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Etruscans not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Scythians not being Greek is the myth, not logic.

Why your logic suddenly passes into mythic grounds? The crash between Macedonians and Greeks was not limited only in that Olympic competition: the ancient literature is loaded with full ethnic riots of Greeks against Macedonians. John Shea stated that even to medium Greeks (the case of athletes), Macedonians were seen as foreigners.

But this does not belong here, does it? Voltron you're jumping from one thread to another, so most of your replies have nothing to do with the thread.