Greeks involved in wars

[Bill77]

Quote:

In the Greek Civil War, solitary confinement was not necessarily used as a measure of punishment. Nor was torture always a means to extort information from the inmate. At this point, as Edward Peters argues, lies the difference between torture in earlier times and torture in the twentieth century. From the thirteenth to the eighteenth century, torture was part of the legal procedure within the framework of confession, that is a means to obtain the victim's confession. The use of torture in the twentieth century was aimed not at the victim's information but at the person of the victim. During the Greek Civil War torture was systematically employed not to obtain the prisoner's confessions of alleged crimes, rather to make them sign declarations of repentance. The authorities' aim was to deconstruct prisoners subjectivity and dissolve their collectivity.

Lets again Look at the Macedonian prisoners in the Greek civil war.

So they would not have been tortured as an act of punishment or to extort information. So why were they tortured? what was there crime? was it simply for having a Macedonian consciousness?

Female political detainees were first interned on the island Chios and then on Trikeri. There status was closer to that of the exiles: They have not been convicted by courts but by the public security committees.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...2&postcount=72

So a "Public Security Committee" (A Kangaroo Court) which would have been made up of Fascist/anti Macedonian committee members. Its not that they would have recieved a fair trial from a official court which would have been run by the monarchofascist government anyway. If you were a Macedonian Man Women or child you were automaticly a criminal by the looks of things.


Let me finally make these points,

If the torture of the Macedonian prisoners was systematically employed not to obtain the prisoner's confessions of alleged crimes, (There was no crime), why were they tortured? It was rather to make them sign declarations of repentance. Woman in particular were indoctrinated in these camps as "Greek women", and then sign in order to return to there homes. This was the usual exhortation of the (Male) officers. The female detainees were always inscribed within the domain of family relations; The appeal was to daughters, mothers, or wives as representatives of Greek women. Were as if you refused and did not crack, you would remain for further treatment and instead of being known as "Greeks" and "Mothers", you would remain as "Bulgarians" and "whores", and had there children taken away from them.

These camps were clearly a place for indoctrination (Hellenization) for many women, Men and Children. Nothing to do with communism or punishment for any crime.

[Bill77]

Another story of Greek valour

I only bring this up after reading what onur posted in another thread on the latest development in cyprus where racist Greeks in larger numbers love to show muscle and violence where a 15-YEAR-OLD Sudanese girl was hospitalized, two Asian youths harassed, and A NIGERIAN man was beaten and injured by a club-wielding mob.



Another story of Greek valour (Bloody Cowards).
Only this time it happened here down under. I remember this incident vividly and the cause of it. It was a soccer match in sydney, between the Greek supported club from sydney "Sydney Olympic" vs "Preston Makedonia" a Melbourne based club.

The Macedonian supporters were out numbered atleast 10 to 1. So these silly Greek supporters decided to be heroes and racialy taunt the Preston Goal keeper from behind the goals. I think it was Philip Trianidis (Preston's GK) at the time who is Macedonian but as the name suggests, his Parents were from Aegean Macedonia.

The Macedonians had enough after many complaints by the Keeper towards the referee with little action by the ref or security, Decided to end this behavour by these racist dirty sick Greeks.

Watch the You Tube video from 17 seconds,
-Note how out numbered the Macedonians were
-Note how these racist cowards ran for there lives and how many they were.

YouTube - Se Sobrale Makedoncite!


A few seasons later, A Greek priest dressed in his attire attended a Match between "Preston Makedonia" vs "Heidleberg United" (a grkomani backed club). This supposedly "man of God" Taunted the Macedonians until he was approached by one person and the Priest had his teeth broken for his troubles. This escalated with many Heidleberg supporters (who were the most radical Greeks at the time) were beaten and chased many kilometers away out side the ground. These two incidents, was the reason why singer "Cane Nikolovski" wrote and sung the song "se sobrale Makedoncite" (which is the track on this You tube video).

[Onur]

I found few pictures of the massacre in Crete in 1897. From the library of US congress;


Restless Athens - waiting for the newspapers - War of 1897, Greece;




Patriotic demonstration - bound for the Palace - 1897, Athens, Greece;




Recruits for the Army, before the Temple of Theseus, 1897, Athens, Greece;




Greek irregular volunteers on the frontier, 1897, Thessaly, Greece;




German volunteers from the homeland of Greek king, raw recruits for the Greek forces, War of 1897;




Armed monks gathering wood for the Meteora monasteries, 1897, Crete;




Insurgents from Sparta - guarding the mountain pass, Grecian frontier, 1897;




Irregulars on the frontier--awaiting an attack--Graeco-Turkish War, 1897;




The San Francisco call, issue of February 19, 1897;

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1897-02-19/ed-1/seq-1/

Turkish officials and little "sole survivor" of a village of 350 people, 1897, Candia, Crete;





Around ~15.000 people in Crete has been massacred in just few months at 1897 `till Turkish fleet arrives to the island to rescue remaining muslims. Most of these people was Greek speaking muslims. Only the ones who were "lucky" to be forcefully baptized was able to stay alive `till Turkish fleet reached to the island and then they escaped with it to the village of bodrum, Mugla in Anatolia.


After the massacres of 1897, Crete became an autonomous state of Ottoman Empire, ruled by the son of Greece`s bavarian king, then Crete officially became Greek territory at 1913.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Watch the You Tube video from 17 seconds,
-Note how out numbered the Macedonians were
-Note how these racist cowards ran for there lives and how many they were.

YouTube - ‪Se Sobrale Makedoncite‬‏!

No matter how many times I have watched that clip, I can't get sick of it - napred Makedonia!

A few seasons later, A Greek priest dressed in his attire attended a Match between "Preston Makedonia" vs "Heidleberg United" (a grkomani backed club). This supposedly "man of God" Taunted the Macedonians until he was approached by one person and the Priest had his teeth broken for his troubles. This escalated with many Heidleberg supporters (who were the most radical Greeks at the time) were beaten and chased many kilometers away out side the ground. These two incidents, was the reason why singer "Goce Nikolovski" wrote and sung the song "se sobrale Makedoncite" (which is the track on this You tube video).

I was at this game with my father and uncles, I will never forget these grkomani running for their lives all over Preston and Reservoir, it was absolute chaos.

On both occasions the Greeks (read grkomani for the latter) provoked the Macedonians, and on both occasions they got theirs - and them some.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Around ~15.000 people in Crete has been massacred in just few months at 1897 `till Turkish fleet arrives to the island to rescue remaining muslims. Most of these people was Greek speaking muslims. Only the ones who were "lucky" to be forcefully baptized was able to stay alive `till Turkish fleet reached to the island and then they escaped with it to the village of bodrum, Mugla in Anatolia.


After the massacres of 1897, Crete became an autonomous state of Ottoman Empire, ruled by the son of Greece`s bavarian king, then Crete officially became Greek territory at 1913.

Terrible story about Crete, the wholesale murderous raids carried out against Greek-speaking Muslims are the same as those against Muslims in the Morea and Attica from the 1820's, which made several would-be 'Philhellenes' view the Christians as the barbarians. I have no doubt that Muslims carried out similar massacres, we have seen how low they were prepared to go after the Ilinden Uprising in Macedonia and other uprisings in other decades and regions.

Here is an old thread of mine, where I have cited George Finlay:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=170

“Greeks violated every principle of private morality and national honour…………slaughter of women, and children was therefore declared to be a necessary measure of wise policy, and popular songs spoke of it……”.

This is absolutely sickening. Is any Greek able to cite one of these "popular songs" that spoke of such dispicable acts regarding the murder of women and children? What sort of mentality and character did these animals have to sing about such things?

[Onur]

Here is an old thread of mine, where I have cited George Finlay:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=170

I got these quotes for the massacres of 1821 in central and southern Greece;

At Monemvasia;




At Peloponnese;






At Tripolis;
Along with the Albanian, Greek and Turkish muslims, Jews has been massacred too;

This is absolutely sickening. Is any Greek able to cite one of these "popular songs" that spoke of such dispicable acts regarding the murder of women and children? What sort of mentality and character did these animals have to sing about such things?

Here it is;




"That Greece Might Still Be Free: The Philhellenes in the War of Independence", by William St Clair; http://books.google.com/books?id=Nph...page&q&f=false

"The war of Greek independence, 1821 to 1833", by Phillips, W. Alison(Walter Alison); http://www.archive.org/stream/warofg...depe00philiala

"History of the Greek Revolution, and the reign of King Otho", by George Finlay;http://books.google.com/books?id=7CtuQgAACAAJ






YouTube - Greek Military Racism

Look who`s exhorting the mobs of Greeks at 1:08 min. I guess he is speaking about Aegean but i cannot understand what he says.

Same place in the anniversary of same date and same actors with very same intentions even after nearly 200 years?
.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Onur, aside from the pursuit of liberty, what inspired the Greeks to behave in such a way? Did the Ottomans inflict any massacres on them prior to this point, or leading up to it?

In such a situation, Turkish officials and Albanian mercenaries would probably be considered 'fair game', but not women and children, never that. Even the innocent Muslim men didn't deserve this. If anything, they should have driven them out of their homes and outside the theatre of war, but they took it to an extreme that is hard to describe by words.

[Onur]

Onur, aside from the pursuit of liberty, what inspired the Greeks to behave in such a way?

I don't know. Anti-Turkish ideas or anti-muslim in general perhaps? since they also massacred their own Greek kinsmen in Crete too. Or they caught up by killing frenzy? i have no idea

Did the Ottomans inflict any massacres on them prior to this point, or leading up to it?

Prior to this point? Nope, ofc not but i know that after the news of these massacres reached to the Istanbul and Salonika, janissary squad in Aegean Macedonia gone to Tripolis and destroyed the city and they hanged several priests there for supporting the massacres upon muslims. That was pretty much the sole disaster caused by Ottoman soldiers during Greek revolution of 1821.

If anything, they should have driven them out of their homes and outside the theatre of war, but they took it to an extreme that is hard to describe by words.

That was pretty much what happened during the Bulgar uprising at 1877 and Balkan wars later. Most of the Turks has been driven out from their properties with some casualties all around but it was not as extreme as Greek uprising of 1821. At least, people had a chance to escape during Balkan wars but what happened in 1821 at Greece was something else, beyond any word to describe it.


Sad thing is, very same people of Cretans and all other Balkan war immigrants who were able to fled to Aegean Anatolia has been driven out from their houses and massacred again when Greeks invaded Aegean Anatolia few years later, at 1919...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prior to this point? Nope, ofc not but i know that after the news of these massacres reached to the Istanbul and Salonika, janissary squad in Aegean Macedonia gone to Tripolis and destroyed the city and they hanged several priests there for supporting the massacres upon muslims.

What about the aftermath of Russian, Venetian and Austrian actions in the Balkans during the 17th and 18th centuries, did the Ottomans heap any reprisals on the local populace that aided the Christian powers? If so, to what degree?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=962

It is no secret that external Christian powers were constantly stirring trouble in the Ottoman realm and using local Christians to support their efforts.

[Bill77]

Did the Ottomans inflict any massacres on them prior to this point, or leading up to it?

Prior to this point? Nope, ofc not

Infact, life was pretty good. I posted this earlier on and read how life was for many living in Yunanistan back then.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=46265&postcount=25

1460 by Sultan Mehmet II, who was received as a deliverer by the Greek Orthodox Christian population, then suffering under the rule of the Roman Catholics1. In 1698 the Ottomans were compelled to cede the Peloponnese to the Venetians, under the Treaty of Carlowitz, but in 1718 it was retroceded to the Ottoman Empire under the Treaty of Passarowitz2 According to the late Professor Dr. Douglas Dakin, who was an expert on the history of modern Greece:"

"[B]This renewed Turkish rule the inhabitants found preferable to that of the Venetians

The Ottomans were their heroes and preferred ruling authorities.
Why??????

taxes were lighter; the administration was less efficient and therefore less harsh; and the (Ottoman) infidel was much more tolerant than the Roman Catholic”

But how was their life style?

Despite the comfortable and easy life which the Greeks, especially those living in urban areas, led, they began to intrigue with the Russians

the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were leading relatively peaceful and prosperous lives, whilst those with the wealth and education found employment in the Ottoman government service. In areas where the Greeks were in the majority they were allowed to establish their own municipalities (dimarchia), free from the interference of the state;

Hmmmm the Ottoman Turks were far from commiting massacres. I just wish under the Fascist Greek rule, today Macedonians could lead relatively peaceful and prosperous lives.
I just wish they to can also establish their own municipalities, free from the interference of the state.
Just like the Albanian speaking population did pryor to the creation of Greece, I just wish Macedonians have a chance to create wealth, chance for a Fair education and find employment while they can freely call themselves Macedonians.

I ask this for any Modern day Greek to answer. Who are or were the sick bastards,
Ottoman Turks?
or
Modern Greeks?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I dont think generalisations help to clarify anything, and, all generalisations aside, it would have been great to still have Spartan here so he could give his opinion.

[Onur]

I dont think generalisations help to clarify anything, and, all generalisations aside, it would have been great to still have Spartan here so he could give his opinion.

Spartan or any other Greek`s opinion cannot change these few facts;

Greeks was always the most privileged christian community under Ottoman regime and the full control of all the orthodox people were given to them by the Turks. If you ask my opinion, that was the biggest mistake of Ottoman regime to give all religious and educational control upon every christian to the Greeks but i gotta clarify one thing tough;

When the Turks gave them all this authority, they weren't Greeks but they were eastern Romans speaking Romaika language as they expressed themselves as such. They became Greeks only after 19th century, when they started to believe that Ottoman Empire gonna be destroyed sooner or later.

I can find the quotes of Phanariots and others from Istanbul in 1820s if you want. When Hellenism invented in Europe and after 1820s, their reaction was like "Wtf is Hellenism, we are eastern Romans and the revolting peasants in Morea are ignorant fools".

And if there would be anyone to be called as Greeks, they would only be these formerly noble Byzantine people from Istanbul and Izmir, not the Arvanites with fustanella from Morea.

The Ottomans were their heroes and preferred ruling authorities.
Why??????

There is one more fact which never get voiced by the christians; Actually the Turks was the savior of orthodox christianity here because if the Ottoman Empire wouldnt driven out all the catholics from here, i am 100% sure that there wouldn't be any othodox christian here today.

Did you know that when Ottoman Empire conquered Istanbul at 1453, there was catholic leaders in Istanbul and they offered help to the Byzantines but the last emperor said that they would prefer the Turkish regime instead of allowing Latins to perform catholic ritual in Hagia Sophia cuz they knew how was the Latin rule upon them at 13th century, when crusaders invaded Istanbul.

Istanbul patriarch personally joined Turkish naval campaigns to Crete, Cyprus and all other places in all over Mediterranean at 16-17th century and he blessed the janissaries and Turkish soldiers with holy water. There was no Greek or any orthodox people left in these places after Latins captured them at 13th century cuz they massacred them all and in 16th century, catholic missioners were successful to convert some Armenians and Greeks in Anatolia and Balkans to catholicism.

[Homer MakeDonski]

I can find the quotes of Phanariots and others from Istanbul in 1820s if you want. When Hellenism invented in Europe and after 1820s, their reaction was like "Wtf is Hellenism, we are eastern Romans and the revolting peasants in Morea are ignorant fools".

If that won't hassled you.Yes please

[Onur]

If that won't hassled you.Yes please

Here it is;

More surprisingly, the patriarch of Istanbul even "EXCOMMUNICATED" the rebels of central Greece in 1821 and declared them as anti-christs!!!



Imho, Arvanite peasants deserved to be excommunicated after all that massacres but it`s surprising to know that the patriarch did that anyway.






The position of Phanariots;







"Studies on Ottoman social and political history: selected articles and essays", by Kemal H. Karpat http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=...page&q&f=false

"The Balkans since 1453", by Leften Stavros Stavrianos,Traian Stoianovich http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=...sec=frontcover





So, Greek uprising was a revolt of peasants in central Greece with the support of Russians and western powers. It wasn't a revolt of Patriarchy or former Byzantine nobles in Istanbul. Ofc the position of the Patriarchy u-turned after late 19th century when they started to believe that Ottoman Empire gonna be destroyed soon but majority of Phanariots still disapproved the invasion of Greek army to Anatolia in 1919 and called the events caused by Venizelos and his army as "barbarism".

[A-Lion-The-Kiss]

[FONT="Verdana"]Here it is;
More surprisingly, the patriarch of Istanbul even "EXCOMMUNICATED" the rebels of central Greece in 1821 and declared them as anti-christs!!!

(Cough) And what happened to the Patriarch of... Istanbul right after he excommunicated the rebels?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Gregory_V_of_Constantinople